Paintball Clarification From AMA
12-01-2006, 10:51 PM
#1
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (14)
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: perris,
CA
Posts: 245
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Paintball Clarification From AMA
Through many threads, hours of bickering, occasional name calling, and tons of finger energy expended. AMA has clarified paintball, and AMA's position on this event. I would like to personally thank Carl Maroney, and the rest of the crew at AMA for taking such care in this matter. In addition, thanks to people like UDET, Littlecrankshaf, hossfly, KidEpoxy, agexpert, and yes... STLpilot, because without all the the attention that we gave this topic we would still be in the same place!
AMA's Clarification on Paintball activities (ground to air) ---
We have completed an extensive review of minutes from both the Safety Committee and the Executive Council meetings. Several individual phone calls and email exchanges have taken place culminating in a recent telephone conference call involving key principals. Participating in that call were the AMA president, the Safety and Insurance Committee chairs, the AMA Special Services Director, the Academy’s insurance broker, and the AMA’s general legal council.
We have concluded that, at this time, there is no AMA policy and no specific exclusion in the Academy’s liability insurance policy, prohibiting the shooting at airborne model aircraft from the ground using a paintball marker when efforts are made to maintain a reasonable level of safety. To insure this level of safety we strongly recommend following the procedures established by the Corona Radio Control Club pertaining to this activity. Copies of these procedures are available by calling AMA Special Services at (765) 287-1256 x 251 or 252.
We want to be clear that this policy DOES NOT apply to the shooting of any projectile, including but not limited to a paintball, FROM a model aircraft. This act is a violation of the AMA Safety Code, General Section, number 8;
I will not operate model aircraft carrying pyrotechnic devices which explode or burn, or any device, which propels a projectile of any kind. Exceptions include Free Flight fuses or devices that burn producing smoke and are securely attached to the model aircraft during flight. Rocket motors up to a G-series size may be used, provided they remain firmly attached to the model aircraft during flight. Model rockets may be flown in accordance with the National Model Rocketry Safety Code; however, they may not be launched from model aircraft. Officially designated AMA Air Show Teams (AST) are authorized to use devices and practices as defined within the Air Show Advisory Committee Document.
We appreciate your patience in this matter.
Carl P. Maroney
Special Services Director
[email protected]
765.287.1256 X250
AMA HQ
5161 E Memorial Dr
Muncie, IN 47302
Website: http://www.modelaircraft.org
AMA's Clarification on Paintball activities (ground to air) ---
We have completed an extensive review of minutes from both the Safety Committee and the Executive Council meetings. Several individual phone calls and email exchanges have taken place culminating in a recent telephone conference call involving key principals. Participating in that call were the AMA president, the Safety and Insurance Committee chairs, the AMA Special Services Director, the Academy’s insurance broker, and the AMA’s general legal council.
We have concluded that, at this time, there is no AMA policy and no specific exclusion in the Academy’s liability insurance policy, prohibiting the shooting at airborne model aircraft from the ground using a paintball marker when efforts are made to maintain a reasonable level of safety. To insure this level of safety we strongly recommend following the procedures established by the Corona Radio Control Club pertaining to this activity. Copies of these procedures are available by calling AMA Special Services at (765) 287-1256 x 251 or 252.
We want to be clear that this policy DOES NOT apply to the shooting of any projectile, including but not limited to a paintball, FROM a model aircraft. This act is a violation of the AMA Safety Code, General Section, number 8;
I will not operate model aircraft carrying pyrotechnic devices which explode or burn, or any device, which propels a projectile of any kind. Exceptions include Free Flight fuses or devices that burn producing smoke and are securely attached to the model aircraft during flight. Rocket motors up to a G-series size may be used, provided they remain firmly attached to the model aircraft during flight. Model rockets may be flown in accordance with the National Model Rocketry Safety Code; however, they may not be launched from model aircraft. Officially designated AMA Air Show Teams (AST) are authorized to use devices and practices as defined within the Air Show Advisory Committee Document.
We appreciate your patience in this matter.
Carl P. Maroney
Special Services Director
[email protected]
765.287.1256 X250
AMA HQ
5161 E Memorial Dr
Muncie, IN 47302
Website: http://www.modelaircraft.org
12-02-2006, 09:05 AM
#4
My Feedback: (15)
Join Date: May 2005
Location: La Vergne,
TN
Posts: 3,743
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Paintball Clarification From AMA
brentp76,
I've been lurking in just about every thread dealing with this issue. I haven't said bupkis because, frankly, "I ain't go no horse in this race". It's not my club, not my field, not my planes, and I don't own a paintball gun.
However...I wanted to say something about the process here, if I may.
I think this entire forum, and indeed, our hobby, could learn a lesson from you. You have, from the get go, adopted a "I want to have fun with my planes, without hurting anyone, and in a way that does not expose me, my club, or my field to unnecessary liability."
THAT is, in a nut shell, what ANY hobby should be about. Let the hobbyist have fun with the hobby, without endangering the health or security of others.
Perhaps we'll find that the activity IS unsafe....perhaps we'll find it can be made safe with adjustments...perhaps we'll find it's safe as it is. Maybe some will enjoy it, maybe some won't. But ya know....the same was true of pylon racing, and pattern flying, and heck, even fancy shmancy "radio control" when they were all new.
But in the mean time, DESPITE the hemming and hawing, the yelling, the disagreements, the name calling, the flaming, etc etc etc...what you've done is carefully identified a workable situation, presented your solution to the APPROPRIATE people, and created an environment where you can go forward with your fun.
Bravo to you, sir, bravo.
I've been lurking in just about every thread dealing with this issue. I haven't said bupkis because, frankly, "I ain't go no horse in this race". It's not my club, not my field, not my planes, and I don't own a paintball gun.
However...I wanted to say something about the process here, if I may.
I think this entire forum, and indeed, our hobby, could learn a lesson from you. You have, from the get go, adopted a "I want to have fun with my planes, without hurting anyone, and in a way that does not expose me, my club, or my field to unnecessary liability."
THAT is, in a nut shell, what ANY hobby should be about. Let the hobbyist have fun with the hobby, without endangering the health or security of others.
Perhaps we'll find that the activity IS unsafe....perhaps we'll find it can be made safe with adjustments...perhaps we'll find it's safe as it is. Maybe some will enjoy it, maybe some won't. But ya know....the same was true of pylon racing, and pattern flying, and heck, even fancy shmancy "radio control" when they were all new.
But in the mean time, DESPITE the hemming and hawing, the yelling, the disagreements, the name calling, the flaming, etc etc etc...what you've done is carefully identified a workable situation, presented your solution to the APPROPRIATE people, and created an environment where you can go forward with your fun.
Bravo to you, sir, bravo.
12-02-2006, 10:49 AM
#6
My Feedback: (58)
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: here
Posts: 5,413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Paintball Clarification From AMA
Well, I am glad AMA has rendered an official position. It seems that paintballing events may actually be safer than an average day at the field for many clubs. I know I would feel much safer at paintballing events as those outlined here than flying with the unknown variables at the everyday flight-line.
12-02-2006, 11:37 AM
#7
Senior Member
My Feedback: (21)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan,
NY
Posts: 9,227
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Paintball Clarification From AMA
Well, I am glad AMA has rendered an official position
12-02-2006, 04:17 PM
#8
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: , CA
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Paintball Clarification From AMA
i doent matter what name is a hero or club so what we did get it ok ama oked it and liked it and we have done this for years with no prob let just be safe and have fun
12-02-2006, 09:25 PM
#9
RE: Paintball Clarification From AMA
Good job Brent
This time Carls commnication makes sense and is really what he should have said in the
in the first place, however i do think Carl should send a copy of his commnication to all
club safety offcers.
This time Carls commnication makes sense and is really what he should have said in the
in the first place, however i do think Carl should send a copy of his commnication to all
club safety offcers.
12-02-2006, 11:21 PM
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Rural,
AR
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Paintball Clarification From AMA
The initial post in the thread in question reads:
there is a post in the crash section about club members purposly shooting down a trainer with airsoft pellet guns isnt this againt ama code
STL, in that thread makes this statement:
I will confidently, in public, as blunt as I can be, say that in my humble opinion I do not believe the AMA would ever consider flying an airplane in safe manner under the current AMA safety code while shooting a plane with a paintball gun or a airsoft pellet rifle or a shotgun or a 50 cal or a mark 9 no matter what conditions you decide is safe and and not safe, again under the current safety code as it sits today. It's not to say it can't be done with perhaps a waiver or following some kind of guidelines the AMA can provide. Insurance money doesn't grow on trees, it's earned by being safe and SMART.
STL then asks the AMA:
just have a quick question.
There is a lot of talk lately going around about paintball shooting and other shooting at RC airplanes with various guns at AMA sanctioned fields and that the AMA would cover an accident, if something happened.
Is this true?
Maroney responded to the question asked. Then STL tried to use the answer of a generic question about shooting projectiles at models to justify his position about paintball markers. When Maroney responded to the specific question of paintball markers, the answer was, as you should expect, more explicit. Paintball is not and has not been prohibited by the AMA or its insurance company.
If you read the initial thread you can see STL twist with each turn of events, drawing one incorrect conclusion after another.
It was never Carl Maroney that answered incorrectly.
there is a post in the crash section about club members purposly shooting down a trainer with airsoft pellet guns isnt this againt ama code
STL, in that thread makes this statement:
I will confidently, in public, as blunt as I can be, say that in my humble opinion I do not believe the AMA would ever consider flying an airplane in safe manner under the current AMA safety code while shooting a plane with a paintball gun or a airsoft pellet rifle or a shotgun or a 50 cal or a mark 9 no matter what conditions you decide is safe and and not safe, again under the current safety code as it sits today. It's not to say it can't be done with perhaps a waiver or following some kind of guidelines the AMA can provide. Insurance money doesn't grow on trees, it's earned by being safe and SMART.
STL then asks the AMA:
just have a quick question.
There is a lot of talk lately going around about paintball shooting and other shooting at RC airplanes with various guns at AMA sanctioned fields and that the AMA would cover an accident, if something happened.
Is this true?
Maroney responded to the question asked. Then STL tried to use the answer of a generic question about shooting projectiles at models to justify his position about paintball markers. When Maroney responded to the specific question of paintball markers, the answer was, as you should expect, more explicit. Paintball is not and has not been prohibited by the AMA or its insurance company.
If you read the initial thread you can see STL twist with each turn of events, drawing one incorrect conclusion after another.
It was never Carl Maroney that answered incorrectly.
12-02-2006, 11:50 PM
#11
RE: Paintball Clarification From AMA
As has been stated by many previously the original post by Carl was to vague and im
sure Carl reads the posts here on RCU also, i think he knew full well what was being
asked or at least should have known.
sure Carl reads the posts here on RCU also, i think he knew full well what was being
asked or at least should have known.
12-03-2006, 09:47 AM
#12
Senior Member
My Feedback: (21)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan,
NY
Posts: 9,227
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Paintball Clarification From AMA
It was never Carl Maroney that answered incorrectly.
After a lot of collaboration within the AMA, lawyers, insurance brokers, members and non members it was then clarified that shooting paintball markers at RC airplanes would be covered under the AMA as long as it was done in a safe environment.
Carl must give the safest answer which he knows is in the best interest of the AMA. I don't believe he knew the answer at the time it was asked, otherwise so much clarification by so many people would not have been necessary.
He gave his answer then and he gave his answer after he found out. But I have a good feeling he was just as surprised as I was that the AMA will condone shooting RC airplanes with a paintball marker. My opinions, bash me as you wish.
12-03-2006, 10:28 AM
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Rural,
AR
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Paintball Clarification From AMA
Of course you disagree.
Much that you have stated as unequivocal fact in other threads on the subject has been laid at your feet and shown not to be fact, but rather, unsupported opinion. If that is bashing you, so be it.
Read your own statements in other threads, or at least the ones you did not alter days later. What you said is clear, concise and wrong.
Carl Maroney had communications with the Corona RC club before its first event and was party to the safety requirements of their event at the time. There were no surprises for Maroney involved.
Much that you have stated as unequivocal fact in other threads on the subject has been laid at your feet and shown not to be fact, but rather, unsupported opinion. If that is bashing you, so be it.
Read your own statements in other threads, or at least the ones you did not alter days later. What you said is clear, concise and wrong.
Carl Maroney had communications with the Corona RC club before its first event and was party to the safety requirements of their event at the time. There were no surprises for Maroney involved.
ORIGINAL: STLPilot
Sorry but I have to disagree. I believe at the time Carl answered my question he himself did not know the answer and believed his genuine answer he gave me which specifically stated the use of paintball markers. And also the fact there was discussion by the safety committee in regards to shooting any object from groud to air as he stated.
After a lot of collaboration within the AMA, lawyers, insurance brokers, members and non members it was then clarified that shooting paintball markers at RC airplanes would be covered under the AMA as long as it was done in a safe environment.
Carl must give the safest answer which he knows is in the best interest of the AMA. I don't believe he knew the answer at the time it was asked, otherwise so much clarification by so many people would not have been necessary.
He gave his answer then and he gave his answer after he found out. But I have a good feeling he was just as surprised as I was that the AMA will condone shooting RC airplanes with a paintball marker. My opinions, bash me as you wish.
It was never Carl Maroney that answered incorrectly.
After a lot of collaboration within the AMA, lawyers, insurance brokers, members and non members it was then clarified that shooting paintball markers at RC airplanes would be covered under the AMA as long as it was done in a safe environment.
Carl must give the safest answer which he knows is in the best interest of the AMA. I don't believe he knew the answer at the time it was asked, otherwise so much clarification by so many people would not have been necessary.
He gave his answer then and he gave his answer after he found out. But I have a good feeling he was just as surprised as I was that the AMA will condone shooting RC airplanes with a paintball marker. My opinions, bash me as you wish.
12-03-2006, 12:12 PM
#14
My Feedback: (58)
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: here
Posts: 5,413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Paintball Clarification From AMA
STL,
Try and understand, please. First off, we(well, most) are all getting tired of all the bickering here and more importantly the problem here is not Carl M's interpretation of the safety code or his response that is causing the conflicts here… It is your interpretation of Carl's response or interpretation among other things that is in error and is causing the perpetual problem.
In short, it is you that is or has been the problem…If you had not entered into the discussion, here or before, we would have been much better off.
Secondly, this thread was supposed to be mainly informational.
So get over it…you were wrong…people can be wrong…we forgive you…Shut up already!
Try and understand, please. First off, we(well, most) are all getting tired of all the bickering here and more importantly the problem here is not Carl M's interpretation of the safety code or his response that is causing the conflicts here… It is your interpretation of Carl's response or interpretation among other things that is in error and is causing the perpetual problem.
In short, it is you that is or has been the problem…If you had not entered into the discussion, here or before, we would have been much better off.
Secondly, this thread was supposed to be mainly informational.
So get over it…you were wrong…people can be wrong…we forgive you…Shut up already!
12-03-2006, 07:58 PM
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: San Antonio,
TX
Posts: 6,681
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Paintball Clarification From AMA
So get over it…you were wrong…people can be wrong…we forgive you…Shut up already!
LCS said:
OK. Have it your way then.
ORIGINAL: STLPilot
Ummmm no.
Ummmm no.
anybody here think I wont... that I wouyld jsut start being nice in regards to his lies?
I'm gonna let this one cool down a bit, see if level heads prevail before I fire up the QuoteTron2000
12-03-2006, 09:56 PM
#18
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Greenwood,
MO
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Paintball Clarification From AMA
Hit a trainer with a paintball? Wow, I'd like to see that! I've sent some 5.56 mm rounds down range in Kuwait and Iraq trying to hit stationary targets the size of...well a human... from a moving vehicle with little success. I can't imagine the probability of hitting a fast moving trainer with a paintball. While on the subject, I recall a field training excersize (FTX) I went to in Korea (around 1992)...they had a civilian fly what looked like a Sturdy Bird around our containment area that was fitted with a laser receiver. We took shots at the trainer with MILES laser transmitters on our M16s and the trainter was set up to emmit a small smoke stream with each hit...needless to say with about 50 plus people shooting at the plane, I saw only one smoke stream before the guy crashed the plane in a tree and he was up a while....hitting a moving target is harder than it looks!
12-03-2006, 10:42 PM
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: San Antonio,
TX
Posts: 6,681
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Paintball Clarification From AMA
Vet-
A. Thanx for serving your country.
B. Check out this thread: [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4820634/tm.htm]AMA Rule [/link] . That is where this was argued the past 2 months.... but around page6 we had some pics from the Corona RC club from their FunFest shoot. Oh, here is the [link=http://www.coronarcclub.com/pagetemplate.asp?header=gallery#]Corona Galleries page[/link](>Field Events>FunFest05) to see more pics- the Corona guys can help with any more info you need
A. Thanx for serving your country.
B. Check out this thread: [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4820634/tm.htm]AMA Rule [/link] . That is where this was argued the past 2 months.... but around page6 we had some pics from the Corona RC club from their FunFest shoot. Oh, here is the [link=http://www.coronarcclub.com/pagetemplate.asp?header=gallery#]Corona Galleries page[/link](>Field Events>FunFest05) to see more pics- the Corona guys can help with any more info you need
12-04-2006, 12:12 PM
#20
Senior Member
My Feedback: (5)
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Brunswick,
GA
Posts: 4,867
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Paintball Clarification From AMA
Thanks Brent. You took the ball and ran with it. Our recent fly-in was kind of a dud, so I will bring your club and it's efforts to the Prez's attention. Maybe we can use this to increase turnout. Hey, the grill was profitable enough, but there was little participation from surrounding clubs. With this, we could get an even bigger spectator turnout. (which was pretty good already!)
06-14-2010, 09:43 PM
#23
My Feedback: (49)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Florence/Rockvale,
CO
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Paintball Clarification From AMA
First Annual Paintball Airplane shoot.
Yes You Can Shoot Paintballs At Our Flying R/C Aircraft!
Saturday July 17th starting at 9:00am into the afternoon.
FUND RAISER: five dollars for 50 shots at our planes.
Safe controlled shooting.
Your paintball marker (gun) or ours.
LADIES:
Do not be shy you can do it as well as kids 12 and up.
We will have shade.
This is really a hoot!
Welcome All
Also Included In The Family Fun Event.
Free introductory lesson: Yes on a real flying model.
Get your fingers on the control sticks.
Planed entertainment:
Giant Scale R/C aircraft demo
R/C Helicopter demo
Aerobatic R/C Aircraft Exhibition
R/C War Birds.
Dukes Famous Sausage will be onsite
WHERE: Florence Colorado
Freemont County Radio Control club site is located ½ mile south of Hwy. 50 on Hwy 67
Just south of the Freemont County Airport. There will be signs.
Yes You Can Shoot Paintballs At Our Flying R/C Aircraft!
Saturday July 17th starting at 9:00am into the afternoon.
FUND RAISER: five dollars for 50 shots at our planes.
Safe controlled shooting.
Your paintball marker (gun) or ours.
LADIES:
Do not be shy you can do it as well as kids 12 and up.
We will have shade.
This is really a hoot!
Welcome All
Also Included In The Family Fun Event.
Free introductory lesson: Yes on a real flying model.
Get your fingers on the control sticks.
Planed entertainment:
Giant Scale R/C aircraft demo
R/C Helicopter demo
Aerobatic R/C Aircraft Exhibition
R/C War Birds.
Dukes Famous Sausage will be onsite
WHERE: Florence Colorado
Freemont County Radio Control club site is located ½ mile south of Hwy. 50 on Hwy 67
Just south of the Freemont County Airport. There will be signs.
06-14-2010, 10:21 PM
#24
My Feedback: (58)
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: here
Posts: 5,413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Paintball Clarification From AMA
ORIGINAL: edstrek
First Annual Paintball Airplane shoot.
Yes You Can Shoot Paintballs At Our Flying R/C Aircraft!
Saturday July 17th starting at 9:00am into the afternoon.
FUND RAISER: five dollars for 50 shots at our planes.
Safe controlled shooting.
Your paintball marker (gun) or ours.
LADIES:
Do not be shy you can do it as well as kids 12 and up.
We will have shade.
This is really a hoot!
Welcome All
Also Included In The Family Fun Event.
Free introductory lesson: Yes on a real flying model.
Get your fingers on the control sticks.
Planed entertainment:
Giant Scale R/C aircraft demo
R/C Helicopter demo
Aerobatic R/C Aircraft Exhibition
R/C War Birds.
Dukes Famous Sausage will be onsite
WHERE: Florence Colorado
Freemont County Radio Control club site is located ½ mile south of Hwy. 50 on Hwy 67
Just south of the Freemont County Airport. There will be signs.
First Annual Paintball Airplane shoot.
Yes You Can Shoot Paintballs At Our Flying R/C Aircraft!
Saturday July 17th starting at 9:00am into the afternoon.
FUND RAISER: five dollars for 50 shots at our planes.
Safe controlled shooting.
Your paintball marker (gun) or ours.
LADIES:
Do not be shy you can do it as well as kids 12 and up.
We will have shade.
This is really a hoot!
Welcome All
Also Included In The Family Fun Event.
Free introductory lesson: Yes on a real flying model.
Get your fingers on the control sticks.
Planed entertainment:
Giant Scale R/C aircraft demo
R/C Helicopter demo
Aerobatic R/C Aircraft Exhibition
R/C War Birds.
Dukes Famous Sausage will be onsite
WHERE: Florence Colorado
Freemont County Radio Control club site is located ½ mile south of Hwy. 50 on Hwy 67
Just south of the Freemont County Airport. There will be signs.
