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Old 02-18-2007, 01:23 AM
  #1  
depfife
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Default AMA Survey

http://www.modelaircraft.org/survey.aspx

Has anyone participated in this survey? If there has been discussion about it, I missed it.
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Old 02-18-2007, 06:31 AM
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Default RE: AMA Survey

DepFife,

The Question of the AMA offering the questionaire is one thing. Will they actually do anything that is suggested? That is another.

There have been a lot of us that have made suggestions over the years, and if it has not met with the E/C's agenda, the suggestions are never heard from again. Perhaps this new Executive Director will make a difference. I hope so.

Bill, AMA 4720
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Old 02-18-2007, 07:33 AM
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Default RE: AMA Survey

Interesting questions. I wonder just how many will take the time to take the poll. Probably as many as voted in the last AMA election. Funny when we have a chance to speak few take the time, but there always seems to be plenty of complainer's.
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Old 02-18-2007, 07:36 AM
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Default RE: AMA Survey

I Participated.

Greg S
(one little voice)
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Old 02-18-2007, 08:39 AM
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Default RE: AMA Survey

I participated, yesterday, and then I sent an Email critical of the wording of the survey questions. I saw a lot of questions that CLEARLY were not professionally written.

When I looked up the staff list, I couldn't find "Surveys" on anyone's duty list. So I guessed, and asked for my critical comments to be forwarded to the appropriate person.

My Email said this was a preliminary survey, not the real thing, so I think it was appropriate to suggest it be reviewed professionally.

My complaints were, mainly, I couldn't review what I'd answered, after submitting, and there was no opportunity to comment on a survey question at the time. For instance, one of the few I remember asked me to evaluate from 1 to 5 the worth of online "chatrooms" and forums. In my opinion, the former is the most worthless item on the Web, and the latter the most worthwhile. Had there been a place to comment, I would have said so.

I hope a better survey is developed from their experience with that one.

Dave Olson
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Old 02-18-2007, 09:03 AM
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Default RE: AMA Survey

I just took it....

Personally I thought there were MORE than enough opportunities to add comments

Heck it even asked about RCU specifically.
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Old 02-18-2007, 09:21 AM
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Default RE: AMA Survey

I think they are listening.
In the past, they never addressed the usefulness of on-line forums and web based information.
To now ask the question means that they have at least heard what people have said in the past.
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Old 02-18-2007, 12:53 PM
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Hi all,
First, for those of you who already spent time taking the survey, thanks. But.... there's a minor problem here. I'm not sure why the link depfife posted was a redirect to this survey but it shouldn't be doing that. The survey is still in the process of being drafted and isn't ready for publication yet. I expect there will be several changes in both the subject of some of the questions asked and the wording of some of the existing questions before this survey goes "live". Scar (Dave) email your comments to Mark Smith (marktsmith_at_everestkc.net) and Jim Cherry (jcherry_at_modelaircraft.org). When the survey is ready for release a notice will be posted on the AMA Website and a push email will be sent to our members for whom we have good email addresses and have not opted out of receiving this type of communication. Sorry for the confusion here but I hope you'll all take a few minutes to help us out and participate in this survey once it's released. Thanks.
Dave
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Old 02-18-2007, 01:27 PM
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Dave - Thanks for posting the situation here. May I suggest that when the survey is ready for prime time that a proper link be posted here on RCU. I don't know what I have opted in or out of, but may have opted out of all mailings (including emails) back during the snafu regarding the unsolicited DVD, but would like to respond honestly to a proper survey, and others may be in the same postion.

Thanks,

Newc
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Old 02-18-2007, 01:49 PM
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Default RE: AMA Survey

The survey is not ready yet? How did I take it???? Whatever

Has the AMA brought in a consulting group??? That would be great if they did.

The survey reads as it is by a third party, not the AMA.

Did ya ever see the movie Office Space???
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Old 02-18-2007, 09:26 PM
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ORIGINAL: Newc

Dave - Thanks for posting the situation here. May I suggest that when the survey is ready for prime time that a proper link be posted here on RCU. I don't know what I have opted in or out of, but may have opted out of all mailings (including emails) back during the snafu regarding the unsolicited DVD, but would like to respond honestly to a proper survey, and others may be in the same postion.

Thanks,

Newc
Newc,
Sure, we can do that. I would expect the final product will be ready sometime in the next several weeks.
Dave
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Old 02-18-2007, 09:47 PM
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ORIGINAL: YNOT

The survey is not ready yet? How did I take it???? Whatever

Has the AMA brought in a consulting group??? That would be great if they did.

The survey reads as it is by a third party, not the AMA.

Did ya ever see the movie Office Space???
YNOT,
There was a redirect to where the draft survey resides that shouldn't have been active.

AMA is getting some outside help in developing the survey. We used an outside firm for the "Axiom" survey that was done in 2000 or so. Based on what I saw in that survey (it missed the mark in some areas), I think creating a survey that will be the most useful requires a combination of some that are involved with AMA on a daily basis as well as some from outside the organization. That's what's being done here.

Didn't see the movie.
Dave


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Old 02-19-2007, 12:00 AM
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Default RE: AMA Survey

Dave M.
AMA is getting some outside help in developing the survey. We used an outside firm for the "Axiom" survey that was done in 2000 or so. Based on what I saw in that survey (it missed the mark in some areas), I think creating a survey that will be the most useful requires a combination of some that are involved with AMA on a daily basis as well as some from outside the organization. That's what's being done here.

Yep, Dave, as usual, make the survey questions to produce the already determined answers. Like all studies, polls, etc., what one doesn't wish to hear is shot-canned.

An example is the use of the term "Giant Scale". What the devil does that term mean in real investigation into one's interest within model aviation? Does that mean that the giant is actually a scale reproduction? is the term used to infer models that fall within the International Minature Aircraft Association's determination of the proverbial 80/60" wingspan along with the 1/4 scale for actual scale models? If I answered that I do 20% "Giant Scale", does it mean that the models are "Giant" whatever the _ell "Giant" defines, and they are "Scale"?
Flawed questions come from flawed brains and provide very flawed results.

Would I be likely to renew my AMA membership? Absolutely NOT! WHY? because I only have ONE LIFE to give to AMA!

Then at the end, you attempt to void earlier answers by restating the same questions in different form. That is a popular method to bring already determined answers into a more definite focus via "survey" "poll" "study", whatever.
So easy to ask 1000 people a 'yes' or 'no' question X. 900 say No; 100 say Yes. Therefore out of 100 people asked question X, 100% said Yes. Forget about the dummies that said No.

People willing to take your money to design a poll to obtain what you want to hear are not in short supply. People that have the ability to design a poll to obtain TRUTH need to be well versed in the subject matter. However that doesn't interest AMA very much does it?

edited; dum dum!
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Old 02-19-2007, 12:17 AM
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Default RE: AMA Survey

Thanks for letting us know the skinny on the survey, Dave. At least you know it was beta tested

Greg S
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Old 02-19-2007, 07:22 AM
  #15  
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ORIGINAL: Hossfly

Dave M.
AMA is getting some outside help in developing the survey. We used an outside firm for the "Axiom" survey that was done in 2000 or so. Based on what I saw in that survey (it missed the mark in some areas), I think creating a survey that will be the most useful requires a combination of some that are involved with AMA on a daily basis as well as some from outside the organization. That's what's being done here.

Yep, Dave, as usual, make the survey questions to produce the already determined answers. Like all studies, polls, etc., what one doesn't wish to hear is shot-canned.

An example is the use of the term "Giant Scale". What the devil does that term mean in real investigation into one's interest within model aviation? Does that mean that the giant is actually a scale reproduction? is the term used to infer models that fall within the International Model Aircraft Association's determination of the proverbial 80/60" wingspan along with the 1/4 scale for actual scale models? If I answered that I do 20% "Giant Scale", does it mean that the models are "Giant" whatever the _ell "Giant" defines, and they are "Scale"?
Flawed questions come from flawed brains and provide very flawed results.

Would I be likely to renew my AMA membership? Absolutely NOT! WHY? because I only have ONE LIFE to give to AMA!

Then at the end, you attempt to void earlier answers by restating the same questions in different form. That is a popular method to bring already determined answers into a more definite focus via "survey" "poll" "study", whatever.
So easy to ask 1000 people a 'yes' or 'no' question X. 900 say No; 100 say Yes. Therefore out of 100 people asked question X, 100% said Yes. Forget about the dummies that said No.

People willing to take your money to design a poll to obtain what you want to hear are not in short supply. People that have the ability to design a poll to obtain TRUTH need to be well versed in the subject matter. However that doesn't interest AMA very much does it?
Hi Horrace,
I'll pass your comments on the use of the words "Giant Scale" and your concern over the membership question to the guys working the project.

Never said the outside help we are getting on creating the poll isn't "well versed in the subject matter". I agree with you and that's why I think the Axiom survey missed the mark. It was created by "professionals" who lacked experience and background in either AMA or model aviation.
Dave
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Old 02-19-2007, 10:01 AM
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Default RE: AMA Survey

ORIGINAL: Hossfly

[snip]
Flawed questions come from flawed brains and provide very flawed results.
Isn't a flaw an improper or disfunctional design?
ie:
flaw - an imperfection in a device or machine; "if there are any defects you should send it back to the manufacturer"
flaw - defect or weakness in a person's character; "he had his flaws, but he was great nonetheless"

Kind of a harsh slam to a guys brains you dont even know. dont'cha think?

Yep, Dave, as usual, make the survey questions to produce the already determined answers. Like all studies, polls, etc., what one doesn't wish to hear is shot-canned.
why dont you post your own poll here for them to refer to I am sure, in your infinite tactfulness, that you are much more suited to design the perfect survey. I look forward to reading it myself.

How about it Hossfly, lighten up a bit, lose the energiser battery off your shoulder, he IS trying to help after all.

Bill


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Old 02-19-2007, 01:43 PM
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You know it is kind of sad when you think that we have 160,000 AMA members and yet no one at headquarters asked for any volunteers to help make the survey questions more meaningful in some cases. Someone understanding the hobby and the nuances involved a little better perhaps. I will say this survey was heads and shoulders above the last one.

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Old 02-19-2007, 02:08 PM
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ORIGINAL: Red Scholefield

You know it is kind of sad when you think that we have 160,000 AMA members and yet no one at headquarters asked for any volunteers to help make the survey questions more meaningful in some cases. Someone understanding the hobby and the nuances involved a little better perhaps. I

An excellent point Red.
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Old 02-19-2007, 03:19 PM
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i guess that makes it about ankle high to a coon, then.

well at least this one can see the light of day.
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Old 02-19-2007, 05:34 PM
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Default RE: AMA Survey


ORIGINAL: TopThumbs

ORIGINAL: Hossfly

[snip]
Flawed questions come from flawed brains and provide very flawed results.
Isn't a flaw an improper or disfunctional design?
ie:
flaw - an imperfection in a device or machine; "if there are any defects you should send it back to the manufacturer"
flaw - defect or weakness in a person's character; "he had his flaws, but he was great nonetheless"

Kind of a harsh slam to a guys brains you dont even know. dont'cha think?

Yep, Dave, as usual, make the survey questions to produce the already determined answers. Like all studies, polls, etc., what one doesn't wish to hear is shot-canned.
why dont you post your own poll here for them to refer to I am sure, in your infinite tactfulness, that you are much more suited to design the perfect survey. I look forward to reading it myself.

How about it Hossfly, lighten up a bit, lose the energiser battery off your shoulder, he IS trying to help after all.

Bill

Tom Thumbs, another great brain hidden behind a shield key-board! After two months here, you have all the answers to give orders to others.

Are you one of the chosen few to actually design/write this survey? Sounds like what AMA might choose.

I am not just picking on Dave M. Of all there, so far he is the best one reference doing things for the membership, yet even Dave's voting record is not what I would like to see.

Reference "flaw": "1 a : a defect in physical structure or form b : an imperfection or weakness and especially one that detracts from the whole or hinders effectiveness." That definition is from Merriam Webster. Within the AMA hierarchy (a body of persons in authority) and or the people they contract to provide various works, there is very little evidence to support a verdict of shortages of brain-forms that detract from or hinder effectiveness.

Now if I were to try to poll electric fliers, then I would have the definitely flawed brain. When it comes to what AMA should be doing, well I have a few years experience in that department and have produced results that AMA would love to have removed from the history book.

Sorry, whoever you profess to be or not to be, you picked the wrong troop to give orders to.
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Old 02-19-2007, 06:11 PM
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Default RE: AMA Survey

ORIGINAL: Hossfly


ORIGINAL: TopThumbs

ORIGINAL: Hossfly

[snip]
Flawed questions come from flawed brains and provide very flawed results.
Isn't a flaw an improper or disfunctional design?
ie:
flaw - an imperfection in a device or machine; "if there are any defects you should send it back to the manufacturer"
flaw - defect or weakness in a person's character; "he had his flaws, but he was great nonetheless"

Kind of a harsh slam to a guys brains you dont even know. dont'cha think?

Yep, Dave, as usual, make the survey questions to produce the already determined answers. Like all studies, polls, etc., what one doesn't wish to hear is shot-canned.
why dont you post your own poll here for them to refer to I am sure, in your infinite tactfulness, that you are much more suited to design the perfect survey. I look forward to reading it myself.

How about it Hossfly, lighten up a bit, lose the energiser battery off your shoulder, he IS trying to help after all.

Bill

Tom Thumbs, another great brain hidden behind a shield key-board! After two months here, you have all the answers to give orders to others.

Are you one of the chosen few to actually design/write this survey? Sounds like what AMA might choose.

I am not just picking on Dave M. Of all there, so far he is the best one reference doing things for the membership, yet even Dave's voting record is not what I would like to see.

Reference "flaw": "1 a : a defect in physical structure or form b : an imperfection or weakness and especially one that detracts from the whole or hinders effectiveness." That definition is from Merriam Webster. Within the AMA hierarchy (a body of persons in authority) and or the people they contract to provide various works, there is very little evidence to support a verdict of shortages of brain-forms that detract from or hinder effectiveness.

Now if I were to try to poll electric fliers, then I would have the definitely flawed brain. When it comes to what AMA should be doing, well I have a few years experience in that department and have produced results that AMA would love to have removed from the history book.

Sorry, whoever you profess to be or not to be, you picked the wrong troop to give orders to.

Excellent and well thought out post there Hossfly - I appreciate your wisdom and tact.
I am humbled to be within the same white space as you with your 2658 posts to my measily 74'some - oh, by the way... thanks for pointing that out.
I am truely enlightened to know that post count and or time in the forums really makes a difference around here.
for your enlightenment and enjoyment I have been around here off and on since RCOnline.com was it's own entity.

now, let's not hyjack this thread and make this about you and me Hossfly, I could care less what "troop" your from. basic decency should always come into play - dont'cha think?

"those who matter - know"

ya big bully.

Bill
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Old 02-19-2007, 07:43 PM
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Hossfly, I'd like to ask you why you are so caustic! Certainly with your background and the voluntary commitments you have made over the years towards this hobby, you deserve our respect! However, you are making this difficult to do! So, instead of asking these questions, I will just sit in the background silently and wonder.
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Old 02-19-2007, 10:28 PM
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ORIGINAL: Mode One

Hossfly, I'd like to ask you why you are so caustic! Certainly with your background and the voluntary commitments you have made over the years towards this hobby, you deserve our respect!
Mode One, personally, I don't have a feeling that anyone OWES me anything. you may respect some of the things I have accomplished for the sport of model aviation, however don't waste your effort thinking you owe the person any thing. OTOH, I don't feel I have to be talked down to by anyone that will not state his/her name when performing such manner of communication directed at me. That makes me caustic.

There are only a very few things in my life that I have been really good at. Besides being able to deliver bombs on the target, some 3+ years, I have been very adept at reading between the lines when confronted with political, semi-political, and journalistic communications. I find much more revealing exchange in what many DO NOT SAY than what they say. The more I hear of the UNSAID, the more I hear that is untrue and usually simply a rephrase of the last big run-around. That makes me caustic.

Model aviation, hobby to some, sport to me, recreation to some, life-style to me, opened most of the doors that I cared to pursue during my life. I take it seriously. Whether others do or do not is their business. While I may offer suggestions, I don't think any less of those that do not. Being serious does not mean that I have to win contests. It means that I promote the sport and have dedicated more than both my share of funds and my share of effort into promoting the sport.
Therefore when those that do not take it seriously jump my rear for taking the sport seriously, either by belittling me personally, or continue trying to rephrase and walk around me with the same old total B-S, well I just come on CAUSTIC!

However, you are making this difficult to do! So, instead of asking these questions, I will just sit in the background silently and wonder.
Never fear questions for me, Mode One. Ask all you want. Most, I probably cannot answer. Many, You won't like the answer. Some I may well answer all wrong. I am no virgin to being wrong. OTOH, I have been heavily involved with AMA since 1963. I was a member long before that but just because it was the thing to do and to enter contests. I don't usually give answers that someone told me. I try to go to the written documents. That is not difficult at AMA. Other places it was very difficult and had I believed many of the road-block-signs personalities, my life would have been VERY VERY different.
So ask away. If I think it is of true interest to YOU I will assist in finding the answer. Just be certain you really want to know. Those that cannot take the heat should remain well clear of the kitchen.

edit; add phrase for objectivity.
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Old 02-19-2007, 10:58 PM
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I think we can read so much between the lines sometimes, we fail to comprehend what is said in the lines. Good luck!
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Old 02-20-2007, 04:19 PM
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For what it's worth , I decided to fill out the survey form
for no other reason other than to see what all the noise
was about. Seems ok to me. As far as the "giant scale"thing.
In this case I have always viewed the term "giant scale" as a ref
to size relative to an inch per foot, not as a scaled copy of any
particular aircraft. To each his own I guess.


All in all it I feel that all of the above, (including the survey) matters
very little but it was mildly interesting .

Regards,
Roby

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