AMA Discussions Discuss AMA policies, decisions & any other AMA related topics here.

Something else to stir the pot:

Reply

Old 04-15-2007, 12:54 PM
  #1  
Hossfly
Thread Starter
 
Hossfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: New Caney, TX
Posts: 6,130
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Something else to stir the pot:

A few days ago this PM came across to me and I think the subject is an excellent discussion item. The author will recognize it, however since I will keep that private, I am only sharing his excellent inputs to me, along with my ideas (slightly edited from my original reply) concerning those thoughts at the time.

I have a question. Are you really angling for president or are you just trying to shake up the house?
Some of both. Testing the waters. If I can get a few nominations from other than locals, I will go for it. If I get on the ballot, I will make a race of it.
It would be interesting to hear what the talk is around the good ol' boys now that a nomination has been placed and I have admitted that I may go for it. Early next month I plan to ask some others, not on this forum, for a nomination.

I do see a need for the AMA to make some changes as far as direction for the future. The problem now is that AMA is reacting to the market place and behind rather than in a leadership role. Other than representing us and keeping our rights to fly and providing liability insurance for flying sites, I really see no benefit of AMA right now.
The benefit is to keep the organization afloat. AMA membership is -- IMO -- now like American citizenship. Unfortunately, it's more for what one can get out of it than what one can do for it or at least to keep it a good thing. AMA is our only hope for a national leader organization which we sorely need.

However while I was against it some years ago, I have given much study to other national organizations and now I firmly believe AMA needs to be divided into the 2 groups, a Foundation to carry on the Nonprofit work and a Corporate Division to become a Lobby Group much like the NRA. There are Pitfalls there but they could be regulated against during the reorganization and I would push for that reorganization with regulations to prevent certain individuals from becoming power-brokers in a gold-mine.

I was shocked to hear a post that DB was trying to get new members from AARP.
Several years ago, up at one of Sandy Frank's shows in the Dallas / Ft. Worth area, the one and only Gerald Nelson hit me with that idea. I thought it a good one. He wasn't just about AARP, but rather than just seek young people, have AMA to take the aeromodeling message to older people, those with the time and the money, and the desire to have some activity to do something, plus the ability to organize and be social and be beyond the "six-pack and TV ball game" mentality.
I still think it is a place to be active in the pursuit of new members. Just today, (Sat. 4-14-07) our club had a display in the downtown section of Humble, TX. The activity was the annual celebration of Old Humble Oil Days. Man it was cold and windy and the turnout was poor, but we distributed lots of literature, like old MANs, FMs, and F-RC mags, plus maps and COME FLY with US for FREE FLYING Lessons. My estimate is that 90% of those displaying an interest were over 50 years old.

I think the electric TOC could be a tool in the right hands to get the electric park flying crowd into the AMA. Not the only tool, but one of many.
You bet it is. Electric is here to stay. Several things that I was against some years ago, after review, even I have to recognize that emotional stupidity cannot be allowed to overcome objectivity and technological change. Each and every road must be NOT just followed but BUILT and LED if we wish to be ahead of the game. It's time AMA went forth and MADE those roads where no roads exist. IMO, AMA has well proven that just sitting and every so often just reacting to something while just thinking about reacting to other things has not displayed a productive record.
While I recognize a need to pursue the older crowd as I stated above, the youngsters will ride in with the electric people, especially those that wish to become competitive and those that love to hang with the good guys.

AMA has plenty good people that can lend their expertise in such endeavors if AMA should be allowed a Leader with the experience that provides the wisdom to acquire a staff of volunteer advisors that will use objective problem solving to get the job done, rather than good-ol'-boy pampering, and just saying what they think leader likes to hear. Of course leader has to know he may well need his butt kicked every so often and be man enough to admit such. In reality, working here "leader' will better be termed coordinator, director, point-man, etc. It will be keeping the team moving in a goal -- direction.

Added to this post: Gentlemen: we each as aeromodelers, no matter our personal dislikes, personal likes, personal characteristics, etc., etc., we all have a common goal and that is to pursue and enjoy the hobby, sport, recreation of model aviation in whatever method, discipline, way or however each individual so desires. That does require the time, the opportunity, and that one common denominator -- A PLACE -- to do so. To enhance our chances of having that PLACE national recognition of our activity is paramount. National recognition is the job of a national organization which we already have one. Isn't it time YOU helped direct the efforts of that organization to serving YOUR needs.

The directions are outlined on page 160 of the Apr. MA. Basically nominate someone that you think will do the job, meets the qualifications stated, and send it in via letter or email. Give name, AMA number and address, and the office being nominated for. DO it. Only 3 get on a ballot. Provide the nominating committee some choices.

edit: change 'do' desires to so desires.
Hossfly is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2007, 05:49 PM
  #2  
Liberator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sandy, UT
Posts: 805
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:

Wow Hoss, that has to be the most mature thing I have ever seen you write.
The only problem I see is that eventually the Old Hoss will come out and dash all your hopes.
If I thought for two seconds you actually believed all that you have written, I would actually think you might be able to do the job, however I think that this is politics at their best.

At the very least this will be interesting. Any bets on how long Hoss can hold it together before Mr. Hyde actually shows up?

Good Luck Hoss, I'm pulling for you, even if it is for my own selfish reasons.
Liberator is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2007, 06:31 PM
  #3  
STLPilot
Senior Member
My Feedback: (21)
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan, NY
Posts: 9,227
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:

A lobby group? Who do we have fighting against the AMA? The last thing the AMA needs is a lobby group to open up a can of worm which doesn't need to be opened. The AMA's mission on preservation is much different than that of the NRA. The AMA just needs good marketing and good ideas for growth and expansion, something more in the line of the EAA which is a lot like the AMA on steroids.

It's funny that you mention that the outline of the directions for nominations for the office of president are listed in MA, which you have described as a commercial magazine rather then a channel for the AMA to let members know what goes on in the organization. How do you intend to continue to get the word out to the members every month in form of a publication for 160,000 members if nobody is going to pay for it?
STLPilot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 05:44 AM
  #4  
LDM
My Feedback: (15)
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Denver, PA
Posts: 9,324
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:

At this time in my life I dont belong to a club so I miss most of the discussions on the AMA ,
I will join a club as soon as my kids grwo up enought that I can contribute my fair share to a club .
At this time I am very involved with my boys ice hockey club as a director .All I can say is that in every AMA post I have read on RCU every one is the same , they lack one major element .
We ----the RCU /RC groups ,. rc scalebuilders ect---RC community we are never really asked what we want from the AMA and our membership .
Show me one post , poll ect that says --what do you want , pick the 10 most common things that the RCU community wants from the AMA and then maybe you will finally have a governing board that is really working for the typical RC hobbyist .
How can the hobby actually grow from a "governing board " that we hope is fighting for the ever grwoing concerns of the common RC guy/girl when we really dont know if the concerns of the RC/guy /girl are even addressed , known or communicated ?
The term common goal is used -well what is it ??? do we really have one , look around on rcu , are we united as rc members with a common goal lol , Builders want to kill ARf guys , warbirds with thick airfoils flyers are better then warbirds guys flying thin tail planes lol , lets be real , we cant unite on this site let alone a voice in politics .
Trust me , I handle over 60 emails a day on my spare time as a director of hockey in a 3000 member club , everyone is going to the NHL in my club (lol). One thing for sure , I know the goals of the club , and we can easily address our problems based on our mutually agreed apon mission statement .
LDM is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 07:34 AM
  #5  
JUGFLIER
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Muscle Shoals, AL
Posts: 1,018
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:


ORIGINAL: STLPilot

A lobby group? Who do we have fighting against the AMA? The last thing the AMA needs is a lobby group to open up a can of worm which doesn't need to be opened. The AMA's mission on preservation is much different than that of the NRA. The AMA just needs good marketing and good ideas for growth and expansion, something more in the line of the EAA which is a lot like the AMA on steroids.

It's funny that you mention that the outline of the directions for nominations for the office of president are listed in MA, which you have described as a commercial magazine rather then a channel for the AMA to let members know what goes on in the organization. How do you intend to continue to get the word out to the members every month in form of a publication for 160,000 members if nobody is going to pay for it?


STL, you forget about the FCC. After all without frequencies, there is no RC. I can see with the development of technology the need to preserve frequencies as well as right to use air space in the future. I get on the warbirds section alot and there are people from Australia in there. The planes they fly have to be inspected and give an airworthy certificate. If they change their dadgum prop, their plane has to be recertified. Minor fenderbender on landing, after repairs, recertification. Damage the wingtipgetting in or out of your vehicle, recertification. This is gov't gone amuck. With the efforts to license fire arms, and generally micromanage everyday life, you bet we need a strong voice representing us.

I don't think Hoss has ever called from the abolishiment of the magazine. Probably the tweaking of it. I am appolled at the fact(if it is true) that the magazine loses money. There sure are plenty of ads in that thing, i know advertising in other magazines is quite expensive.
JUGFLIER is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 09:35 AM
  #6  
Stickbuilder
 
Stickbuilder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Leesburg, FL
Posts: 8,678
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:

Horrace,

I totally agree with your post. I believe that this is the direction that the Academey should be pursuing. Don't let the usual suspects goad you into saying something negative. I'm on your side on this one. (I do reserve the right to disagree with you from time to time)

Good luck with your campaign. If I can do anything to assist you, please let me know.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
Stickbuilder is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 11:23 AM
  #7  
Hossfly
Thread Starter
 
Hossfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: New Caney, TX
Posts: 6,130
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:


ORIGINAL: STLPilot

A lobby group? Who do we have fighting against the AMA? The last thing the AMA needs is a lobby group to open up a can of worm which doesn't need to be opened.
EAA has opened a few cans throughout their history, and succeeded in getting many items accomplished for sport aviation because they have protected most of their operations with the non-profit tax-free EAA Aviation Foundation for Research and Development and the EAA Air Museum Foundation which actually oversees most of the actual operational income producing activities. EAA itself is then open to negotiate with government on a number of subjects plus entertain friendly legislators.
The AMA's mission on preservation is much different than that of the NRA. The AMA just needs good marketing and good ideas for growth and expansion, something more in the line of the EAA which is a lot like the AMA on steroids.
Preservation is not the subject. Future operation and growth is. The EAA would have been a better choice of comparison for organization except that the aeromodeler is more like the NRA member than the EAA member. The EAA member, by my observation, (41 years professional aviation) is a more structured personality while the typical model aviator is somewhat more of the artistic and less structured personality. To be effective in the leadership role of all the modeling groups, AMA needs an organization that can be flexible to the needs of a rapidly changing political environment.
It's funny that you mention that the outline of the directions for nominations for the office of president are listed in MA, which you have described as a commercial magazine rather then a channel for the AMA to let members know what goes on in the organization. How do you intend to continue to get the word out to the members every month in form of a publication for 160,000 members if nobody is going to pay for it?
"....if nobody is going to pay for it?" That's news to me "stl". The advertisers only pay for the actual cost of the production of their advertising space, so the AMA members have to pay for all the remainder of the expense associated with the magazine. It's so stated right there in the Audit Reports available in the AMA Members Only section of the Web site. It is not a secret. Federal Law requires it --IRC 501 (c) (3) -- to be public information. If you cannot comprehend it, I will be happy to point it out to you.

EAA gives a member a choice of 2 magazines, one geared more for their area of interest. While I have not EAA's current membership numbers, even with show attendance nearly a million back in 1995, their paid membership then was only 150,000.

I get a choice from NRA. It is my choice of their offers, a true "Journal" telling me factual info. concerning political situations. I care not about the costs. I am a Life member of NRA and I contribute $120.00 per year as a Charter Founder and a sustaining member of the Second Amendment Task Force. I am also a Life member and a sustaining contributor to the Texas State Rifle Association for which I receive a Journal each 2 months with political happenings concerning gun stuff. I care not about the expense of the magazine. It serves a needed purpose. The latest was the whole story of the Castle Doctrine becoming law here in Texas. That was barely mentioned in any of the main news media.

AMA's full fledged commercial magazine advertising costs, at less than market rates, does nothing but keep other media from supporting AMA, and thus keeps AMA strictly within the Choir. The current management of AMA is slowly strangling AMA to death and lessening every chance of obtaining new flying facilities within urban areas as suburbia slowly eats up the countryside. The rising cost of fuel and the resulting cost of commuting to workspaces will not help as any remaining interior suburban lands get taken over for parks for other uses than toy airplanes. Aeromodelers sorely need friends in high places and a national organization that is recognized there.
Hossfly is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 12:26 PM
  #8  
Liberator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sandy, UT
Posts: 805
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:

"AMA's full fledged commercial magazine advertising costs, at less than market rates, does nothing but keep other media from supporting AMA, and thus keeps AMA strictly within the Choir. The current management of AMA is slowly strangling AMA to death and lessening every chance of obtaining new flying facilities within urban areas as suburbia slowly eats up the countryside. The rising cost of fuel and the resulting cost of commuting to workspaces will not help as any remaining interior suburban lands get taken over for parks for other uses than toy airplanes. Aeromodelers sorely need friends in high places and a national organization that is recognized there. "

Hoss,

Sorry to be dense, but explain this to me. Particularly the first sentence.

Tom
Liberator is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 12:47 PM
  #9  
ptulmer
Senior Member
My Feedback: (5)
 
ptulmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Brunswick, GA
Posts: 4,867
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:

Liberator, for me to agree with Hoss is one thing, but to admit it means he's really struck gold. The AMA is making it difficult for other magazines to compete by offering way below market advertising rates. The result is the other magazines will not support the AMA with free advertisements, etc. It's a p*ssing contest that hurts the organization and the other magazines. They don't have member dues to draw from to sustain their magazine. That's what MA does. Instead of working to be profitable, they just draw from the dues to keep the presses rolling.
ptulmer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 01:28 PM
  #10  
Taildrager-inactive
Senior Member
My Feedback: (11)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Oregon, IL
Posts: 917
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:

Me like most members pay our dues for the insurance, don't vote, and really don't care.. Will never go to Munci, be semi active in our club, ie never volenteer but will help out when asked nicely of course, and are busy with ourhobby, life and other things. When DB is defeated and we see things getting better will then maybe, just maybe take a active intrest in AMA. Go for it Horrace, you can only make things better than they are.
Taildrager-inactive is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 02:04 PM
  #11  
Scrape
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 67
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:

Lower the membership cost and maybe there would be more intrest in the AMA and members.
Scrape is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 02:20 PM
  #12  
Montague
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Laurel, MD,
Posts: 4,987
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:

There is also a lot going on with the AMA and the FAA and the federal government concerning UAVs and keeping models from being regulated like the UAVs are now going to be. The government isn't exactly known for well written rules and regulations, and it's not hard to see the FAA implementing regulations that basically outlaw all model aircraft as we know them.
Montague is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 02:40 PM
  #13  
Hossfly
Thread Starter
 
Hossfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: New Caney, TX
Posts: 6,130
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:

Liberator, ptulmer hit that first sentence rather well. Thanks PT. Now as an investor in open land I am seeing some builders back looking at vacant property previously skipped over due to flatter property a few miles farther out. Well with gas hitting $3 a gallon here and expecting $4 soon and maybe 5 within a couple years and who knows where after that, with NO PUBLIC Transportation in this area to speak of, commuting into the working areas is going to suffer, so closer in living is going to take over. Where my kids live up in the Nor. Wst. suburbs of Chicago-Land, tearing down of homes that were EXPENSIVE 20 years ago is now the norm for homes, town-homes, and condos to be built that are priced far beyond anything that I would ever think of buying.
So those folks are using every square foot for the buildings and the drainage systems required. Nothing left for hardly even a foamie. Every school yard in warmer times is laced with soccer, softball, etc.etc. No things that fly. It's Hard to imagine out here in the country areas, except even here, kids can't reach the flying fields until they can drive. By then there are other pressing interests. Sure would be nice if AMA had some leadership that could lobby some trickle-down (from up above) recognition into the school systems for indoor electrics, lake/pond float flying and/or whatever a local group could come up with.
There is a program -- haven't gotten too familair with it -- for older folks at community centers. I investigated a bit but governmental grant restrictions precluded any real interest for my objectives at the time. Now if some real national organization got to talking with the right people, I can see where these centers could allow some indoor RCing for the elders and of course, their guests, (grandkids, friends, etc.). There are so many opportunities, however not only do these opportunities not come to you, they don't even knock on your door. One must go search, find them and negotiate for them.
Hossfly is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 02:41 PM
  #14  
50%plane
My Feedback: (5)
 
50%plane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: California
Posts: 3,943
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:

JUGFLIER said:


After all without frequencies, there is no RC. I can see with the development of technology the need to preserve frequencies as well as right to use air space in the future.
It's called 2.4ghz. I was discussing this with my LHS owner this weekend. Without a doubt, we(RC'ers) will lose the 72mhz band as 2.4 ghz is becoming quite popular. When Futaba releases their new FASST system, I don't know many folks who are not going to switch.( I will be switching as well) With JR's new releases in Toledo, there's plenty for everyone. There will be no point in keeping the 72mhz band for just a few RC pilots who refuse to switch. This is where the AMA might be able to help them. At least for a time.


STLPilot said:

A lobby group? Who do we have fighting against the AMA? The last thing the AMA needs is a lobby group to open up a can of worm which doesn't need to be opened. The AMA's mission on preservation is much different than that of the NRA. The AMA just needs good marketing and good ideas for growth and expansion, something more in the line of the EAA which is a lot like the AMA on steroids.
I couldn't agree more.


Hoss said:

Electric is here to stay. Several things that I was against some years ago, after review, even I have to recognize that emotional stupidity cannot be allowed to overcome objectivity and technological change. Each and every road must be NOT just followed but BUILT and LED if we wish to be ahead of the game. It's time AMA went forth and MADE those roads where no roads exist. IMO, AMA has well proven that just sitting and every so often just reacting to something while just thinking about reacting to other things has not displayed a productive record.
While I recognize a need to pursue the older crowd as I stated above, the youngsters will ride in with the electric people, especially those that wish to become competitive and those that love to hang with the good guys.
That is a reality the the AMA tries to grasp, but just falls short on. The AMA will not be able to get the younger electric minded crowd unless they dangle enough eye candy. And that isn't going to happen due to a couple reasons. First of all, there's no incentive. Why would a 15 year old buy something that's not going to get them anymore than they have? Second, If the AMA were to go under, how would that change their world negatively. And third, hanging out with a bunch of 70+ year old modelers who hate electrics just ain't going to fly.



Hoss said:

Gentlemen: we each as aeromodelers, no matter our personal dislikes, personal likes, personal characteristics, etc., etc., we all have a common goal and that is to pursue and enjoy the hobby, sport, recreation of model aviation in whatever method, discipline, way or however each individual so desires. That does require the time, the opportunity, and that one common denominator -- A PLACE -- to do so. To enhance our chances of having that PLACE national recognition of our activity is paramount. National recognition is the job of a national organization which we already have one. Isn't it time YOU helped direct the efforts of that organization to serving YOUR needs.
Well said. If the AMA could embrace such a statement, they might actually get somewhere. I will do my part.

Sincerely,
50%
50%plane is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 02:46 PM
  #15  
Liberator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sandy, UT
Posts: 805
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:

Ptulmer,

I don't disagree with the concept, but there is a reverse problem as well.

I think that the rational behind the pricing is the distribution of the Magazine. The MA goes out mostly as part of folk's AMA Membership package as you all know. The problem with that is there is no way to quantify how well the advertising message is being recieved. Essentially it is a free subscription at least as far as demographics people are concerned. Please, let's not get into how the magazine is not free blah blah blah..I get it. The point is that people are not actively seeking the publication out in terms of being willing to pay for it. This hurts it's ability to generate revenue from the ads as far as advertisers are concerned.

This is probably the latest way Hoss can see to drive support to just jack the advertising prices up in the magazine. Is there a percieved issue by the other industry mags? Perhaps, or is it that they know what they have and have placed a value on it. If you want to increase the ad rates in the magazine then great, but you must also increase the value proposition or all you will see is a lot more room to put control line and free flight information.

I tried to get Hoss to tell me how long he has been in publishing and he seems to want to ignore that question. That is why I asked that question Hoss. If you don't have a back ground in the industry thats ok, but please be aware that there are bigger issues that just raising the rates.
Liberator is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 03:03 PM
  #16  
ptulmer
Senior Member
My Feedback: (5)
 
ptulmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Brunswick, GA
Posts: 4,867
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:


That is a reality the the AMA tries to grasp, but just falls short on. The AMA will not be able to get the younger electric minded crowd unless they dangle enough eye candy. And that isn't going to happen due to a couple reasons. First of all, there's no incentive. Why would a 15 year old buy something that's not going to get them anymore than they have? Second, If the AMA were to go under, how would that change their world negatively. And third, hanging out with a bunch of 70+ year old modelers who hate electrics just ain't going to fly.
I couldn't agree less. You obviously haven't picked up your MA lately. They "dangle" foamies and electrics all over the place. And what 15yo can afford this hobby? If he can afford it, he probably doesn't have the time between school and job. That's not the market segment you're going to get here and it would be bad business to try! Besides, what does model aviation offer when compared to a game console?
Your second point, well I ask myself the same thing.
Your third point is just plain ludicrous. How many 70+ modellers do you really see? I'd say they are the minority. Fewer even than 15yo's in the hobby. There's one guy in our club that meets that criteria and he can't see well enough to fly. He does show up for work days, though. Never heard an unkind word out of him, either. He loves gas, glow and electrics. Oh, gliders, too.
This is surprising 50%, your posts are usually more thoughtful. There's not much in that entire post that I can agree with.
ptulmer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 03:07 PM
  #17  
JUGFLIER
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Muscle Shoals, AL
Posts: 1,018
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:


ORIGINAL: Liberator

Ptulmer,

I don't disagree with the concept, but there is a reverse problem as well.

I think that the rational behind the pricing is the distribution of the Magazine. The MA goes out mostly as part of folk's AMA Membership package as you all know. The problem with that is there is no way to quantify how well the advertising message is being recieved. Essentially it is a free subscription at least as far as demographics people are concerned. Please, let's not get into how the magazine is not free blah blah blah..I get it. The point is that people are not actively seeking the publication out in terms of being willing to pay for it. This hurts it's ability to generate revenue from the ads as far as advertisers are concerned.

This is probably the latest way Hoss can see to drive support to just jack the advertising prices up in the magazine. Is there a percieved issue by the other industry mags? Perhaps, or is it that they know what they have and have placed a value on it. If you want to increase the ad rates in the magazine then great, but you must also increase the value proposition or all you will see is a lot more room to put control line and free flight information.

I tried to get Hoss to tell me how long he has been in publishing and he seems to want to ignore that question. That is why I asked that question Hoss. If you don't have a back ground in the industry thats ok, but please be aware that there are bigger issues that just raising the rates.


Was ole DB a publisher before he beacame prez?
JUGFLIER is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 03:09 PM
  #18  
ptulmer
Senior Member
My Feedback: (5)
 
ptulmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Brunswick, GA
Posts: 4,867
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:

Liberator, I think you might be reaching just to disagree with Hossfly. Even though I don't like him and wouldn't support him for dog catcher doesn't mean he can't be right. MA doesn't just have a few more subscribers than the other rags, there's no other R/C airplane magazine in the WORLD that can compete with it. The idea that since it's forced on the membership it has less value to advertisers in just bologna.
ptulmer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 03:17 PM
  #19  
DocYates
My Feedback: (102)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 3,345
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:


ORIGINAL: ptulmer



I couldn't agree less. You obviously haven't picked up your MA lately. They "dangle" foamies and electrics all over the place. And what 15yo can afford this hobby? If he can afford it, he probably doesn't have the time between school and job. That's not the market segment you're going to get here and it would be bad business to try! Besides, what does model aviation offer when compared to a game console?
Your second point, well I ask myself the same thing.
Your third point is just plain ludicrous. How many 70+ modellers do you really see? I'd say they are the minority. Fewer even than 15yo's in the hobby. There's one guy in our club that meets that criteria and he can't see well enough to fly. He does show up for work days, though. Never heard an unkind word out of him, either. He loves gas, glow and electrics. Oh, gliders, too.
This is surprising 50%, your posts are usually more thoughtful. There's not much in that entire post that I can agree with.
PT,
I agree, I think the AMA makes too many concessions by dangling carrots to one crowd and making sacrifices to others. The only current membership cost that makes sense to me is the $1 for youth membership. The other staggered costs and discounts for some does not make much sense. The AMA offers a senior citizen discount when my guess is that more than 35-40% of the members use this. Why not come up with an across the board price for everyone, who gets the same service, and equally dispense this amongst the membership? Fix the magazine or make it self sufficient, but do something with it, it really is not that bad of a magazine. The youth membership makes sense to me, and I encourage lots of kids I know to join. As to your point of the 70+ year old modelers...there's lots of them, I saw them all this week in Toledo...LOL. They are active, and going electrics, can't seem to get enough of them. I talked to many this week who are active in the sport and absolutely rabid about this E-flite craze. More power to them, they have the time and the knowledge and are a great asset for us, but we should not cater to one group in order to sacrifice the rest. Otherwise, I see Hoss's message and would support someone with his vision to take the reins of the AMA. I say go for it Hoss, your ideas have some merit.
Tommy
DocYates is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 03:31 PM
  #20  
50%plane
My Feedback: (5)
 
50%plane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: California
Posts: 3,943
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:


ORIGINAL: ptulmer


That is a reality the the AMA tries to grasp, but just falls short on. The AMA will not be able to get the younger electric minded crowd unless they dangle enough eye candy. And that isn't going to happen due to a couple reasons. First of all, there's no incentive. Why would a 15 year old buy something that's not going to get them anymore than they have? Second, If the AMA were to go under, how would that change their world negatively. And third, hanging out with a bunch of 70+ year old modelers who hate electrics just ain't going to fly.
I couldn't agree less. You obviously haven't picked up your MA lately. They "dangle" foamies and electrics all over the place. And what 15yo can afford this hobby? If he can afford it, he probably doesn't have the time between school and job. That's not the market segment you're going to get here and it would be bad business to try! Besides, what does model aviation offer when compared to a game console?
Your second point, well I ask myself the same thing.
Your third point is just plain ludicrous. How many 70+ modellers do you really see? I'd say they are the minority. Fewer even than 15yo's in the hobby. There's one guy in our club that meets that criteria and he can't see well enough to fly. He does show up for work days, though. Never heard an unkind word out of him, either. He loves gas, glow and electrics. Oh, gliders, too.
This is surprising 50%, your posts are usually more thoughtful. There's not much in that entire post that I can agree with.
Actually, I just read the past six months issues of MA. Yes, there is a lot of "eye candy", but I wasn't talking about MA. I was talking about the AMA as an organization. What do they offer electric modelers? Just half a magazine. As for my third point, I don't know where you fly, but I highly suggest that you take a look around at some other fields. They're practicly crawling with older and wiser modelers.(many of which I love flying with) If I remember correctly, a couple years ago, the AMA announced that the average age of an AMA member was 68.5. This would mean, that unless DB pulled off a miracle, the average age would be at least 70.5.


I hope this better clarified my remarks, Have a great day!
50%


50%plane is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 03:41 PM
  #21  
STLPilot
Senior Member
My Feedback: (21)
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan, NY
Posts: 9,227
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:

There is no magic trick in making MA more profitable. The advertising prices are based on what the advertisers are willing to spend and nothing more. There is most certainly competition in rc rags and that's what sets the price. Ad rates are relatively the same amongst the top rags within a few percentage points. Case in point, the EAA charges 4x-5x as much to advertise in their flagship magazine to practically the same number of subscribers of members, which is also included in the price of EAA membership. The reason they charge what they charge is because they can get it.

Sorry to say but the decline of the AMA has nothing to do with MA, especially if you can see MA as a value to the membership rather then a burden. It saves the AMA plenty of money.
STLPilot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 04:09 PM
  #22  
Liberator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sandy, UT
Posts: 805
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:

Jug, what the hell does that have to do with anything? DB has never said the things Hoss had about trying to make MA profitable, thus the question to Hoss. I even said that it was ok if not, just don't make the assumption that raising the rates means profitability over night, if ever.

Ptulmer normaly I would not be able to disagree that I was looking for a reason to disagree with Hoss. In this case however, this is some very serious advice.

It is not bologna that advertisers will equate the delivery method with results. In advertising part of what comes with the package is how is the message getting to people? If people seek out the message ie; buy the magazine, there is a perception that they will more frequently buy from that product. The fact that it costs more to advertise in ALL of the other magazines bears this out.
Does that mean rates can't be raised? Of course not, but one must do this in conjunction with other programs that will give the advertiser more chance for success. It is also true that one could make the argument that since all the members of the AMA get the magazine it will not pay to put a message (advertise) in that product. I guarantee that sales people for the other magazines use that as their primary tool for why to spend money with them, versus the MA. Creating disatisfaction with a product is a major tool when selling advertising.

On a side note...I absolutley will look for a reason to disagree with Hoss because frankly it's fun. I don't dislike him. I do think he is rather pompous and does not have it in his nature to get along with people long enough to be effective in this position. That frankly is kind of sad. He obviously has a passion for this stuff and if he could just put the old school bully garbage aside for a while, might be pretty good at it. I fear though that the old line about teaching an old dog new tricks will apply here. Too many years doing stuff the only way which is his way regardless of the frequent fact it may just not be the right way.

Good luck Hoss, I'm still rootin for ya.
Liberator is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 05:03 PM
  #23  
STLPilot
Senior Member
My Feedback: (21)
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan, NY
Posts: 9,227
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:

MA ad rates are right in line with top rags, advertisers public rate sheets mean nothing. Don't believe me call any rag and see what a full page spread REALLY costs and you'll be surprised.

Hoss you have on multiple posts coined MA as a "commercial" publication. Question, if you are so disenclined about the AMA generating revenue from commercial advertisers in MA what are your thoughts about the AMA's idea about selling banner ads on the website and other potential revenue generators that the AMA could benefit from companies whom WANT to spend dollars with the AMA? What's so bad about it? Should the AMA toss out the AMA Convention, another commercial venture and revenue generator. Do you consider it greedy when advertisers WANT to spend?

The AMA should most certainly take full advantage of these revenue generators, most NFP's do the same. Wonder how much Disney spends with AAA a year, prolly in the 10's of millions. Smart move on both their ends.
STLPilot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 08:18 PM
  #24  
ptulmer
Senior Member
My Feedback: (5)
 
ptulmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Brunswick, GA
Posts: 4,867
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:


ORIGINAL: 50%plane

Actually, I just read the past six months issues of MA. Yes, there is a lot of "eye candy", but I wasn't talking about MA. I was talking about the AMA as an organization. What do they offer electric modelers? Just half a magazine. As for my third point, I don't know where you fly, but I highly suggest that you take a look around at some other fields. They're practicly crawling with older and wiser modelers.(many of which I love flying with) If I remember correctly, a couple years ago, the AMA announced that the average age of an AMA member was 68.5. This would mean, that unless DB pulled off a miracle, the average age would be at least 70.5.


I hope this better clarified my remarks, Have a great day!
50%
Around here the average age at the field is about 55, maybe even less. (that would include the four local clubs that I frequent) There are quite a few retirees, but there are more guys in my age range (early thirties). That seems to be the two groups that have the time, money and inclination. So, that might explain why you have so many "old guys" in your area. You just haven't exported enough of them!

What does the AMA offer me? When is the last time you saw a 1/2a article in MA? That's not what makes AMA members. It's the strong-arm tactics they use against clubs. It's not surprising that people that don't have to join, just don't. Why focus the one thing that you do for members (MA) on people that aren't going to join?! It might make better sense if it was on the shelf at the local bookstore.

Liberator, I just don't like him. This "new attitude" is just an attempt to begin to position himself in case he does make it onto the ballot, so you and I can agree on one thing. This ain't gonna last!
ptulmer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 08:29 PM
  #25  
50%plane
My Feedback: (5)
 
50%plane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: California
Posts: 3,943
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Something else to stir the pot:


ORIGINAL: ptulmer


ORIGINAL: 50%plane

Actually, I just read the past six months issues of MA. Yes, there is a lot of "eye candy", but I wasn't talking about MA. I was talking about the AMA as an organization. What do they offer electric modelers? Just half a magazine. As for my third point, I don't know where you fly, but I highly suggest that you take a look around at some other fields. They're practicly crawling with older and wiser modelers.(many of which I love flying with) If I remember correctly, a couple years ago, the AMA announced that the average age of an AMA member was 68.5. This would mean, that unless DB pulled off a miracle, the average age would be at least 70.5.


I hope this better clarified my remarks, Have a great day!
50%
Around here the average age at the field is about 55, maybe even less. (that would include the four local clubs that I frequent) There are quite a few retirees, but there are more guys in my age range (early thirties). That seems to be the two groups that have the time, money and inclination. So, that might explain why you have so many "old guys" in your area. You just haven't exported enough of them!

What does the AMA offer me? When is the last time you saw a 1/2a article in MA? That's not what makes AMA members. It's the strong-arm tactics they use against clubs. It's not surprising that people that don't have to join, just don't. Why focus the one thing that you do for members (MA) on people that aren't going to join?! It might make better sense if it was on the shelf at the local bookstore.
Well, I can't argue as point over two distinctly opposite experiences. It sounds like you have some great clubs there that aren't mainly retired gentelmen. I'm priviledged to belong to a club with a wide age range, but I have seen many clubs that don't have such a great setup as far as members go. As far as strong arm tactics, I frequently fly foamies where there are no clubs. I'd assume that your 1/2A planes can fly in almost as small an area. Also, you can start your own club without the AMA as well. I've seen a few clubs that don't require AMA, but they require proof of insurance, as opposed to exclusively AMA. I suggest that you do that if you see the AMA as being "strong armed".


Have a wonderful day!
50%
50%plane is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service