MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

You're the one claiming that words of support are hollow without any sort of monetary backing. Once again, have you subsidized an AMA membership for any of your 7,000 troops? Have you actively supported any young enlisted man or woman getting involved in this hobby, beyond mere (valueless, apparently) words?

You really should be ashamed of yourself for intimating that no individual or organization should publicly back our troops without also providing some sort of discount or remuneration. Would you rather have them say nothing? Your head is in the wrong place, and you need to reexamine what you are doing.

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

So you haven't done anything, and your reason for doing nothing is because the AMA has had the temerity to say they support the troops on the website--without offering a discount to you and others in the service. You yourself aren't willing to do anything to further your own cause, because a handout isn't being extended along with a word of thanks?

No, but the above sure does. If you're not willing to help those you're directly responsible to even have a place to fly, why are you starting with the AMA? Those membership discounts certainly will have no meaning to troops that can't afford to get started in the hobby and, even if they blew a paycheck to do that, wouldn't have a place to fly because you become disillusioned due to someone thanking you.

franklin_m

Wow. Actually, I have four troops and three neighborhood kids (military dependants) that I'm teaching to fly right now. Have supply of SPAD parts ready to help them construct something when they're ready. None have indicated a desire to get their own plane yet, so I'm happy to spend my time (much more scarce a resource) and fuel teaching them to fly. My plan is simple - if they see that they can do it successfully, then they're more inclined to spend a little money to participate. When they do, their plane will survive and they're likely to continue.

$58 is a lot to a young service member. Especially when, from their perspective given their deployments, they get not much more than a magazine in return. Schedules and duty stations don't often make it easy to go to meets. Furthermore, nearest AMA flying field is quite a drive (and they're set to lose it in not too distant future), further sending expenses up.

scottrc

I agree that there should be NO discounts. All members pay equally which one big beef I have always had with the AMA. What I am also in favor of is that the AMA pro-rate active duty members time. Say if they are on a 9 to 12 month deployement, and have paid in that year, then they do not have to pay for the next year that they are back in the states.

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

So work with MWR, and get a location on base where AMA won't be required (nor would club membership, which is the sole reason most of your troops would seek out AMA membership). If you're responsible for 7,000 men and women, you should have some measure of pull.

Seriously, can you not see how asking for a handout is bad form? Particularly in the in which you are doing it? You can't castigate an organization for not giving a handout simply because they've publicly thanked the troops. What you are, in fact, encouraging, is for organizations such as the AMA to stop publicly stating their support.

50%plane

My Feedback: (5)

Excellent posting MikeL! I couldn't have said it any better.

Franklin_m, $58 is NOT a lot for a young enlisted servicemember. It's only hard after the beer(or whatever) budget drains everything on the 2'nd and 16'th. Remember, housing and food are already taken care of. So the $1301.40, $1458.90, $1534.20, or $1630.80 is all spending money.

scottrc

I have to agree here too. If they are single, then they have plenty of extra money to spend, I know I did, and the kids from the local base always had more money then brains when it came to RC. If they have a family, then they are just like the rest of us who have to save and scrimp month by month. Where I do see AMA helping out is to the servicepeople who do not have control on when and how long they may be deployed, such as the case of reservists and Nationalguard, who are called up and then have their deployments extended. The AMA could grant a membership extension to these members.

franklin_m

Actually, I'm already doing that. We fly on base in several areas. However, with AMA's stranglehold on flying flields just nearly everywhere else, there's a nexus between encouraging flying where I can and AMA membership. Quite honestly, if AMA is so inclined to continue subsidizing some groups over others, they need to understand that they're sending a message by their actions. If they're ok with that, so am I. But what I'm trying to do, very simply, is point out an inconsistency between what they say and what they do.

There are a great many companies out there that put their organizations that put resources behind their statements. I'm pragmatic enough to know that there are a great many that do not. Each and every time I see that latter, I'm disappointed. The message is not lost on the troops either. They can easily differentiate those who say from those who do. Again, goes to that "sending a message" comment above.

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

The military is an odd place at times. I used to see E-1s, 2s, and 3s driving new Mustangs. Actually, I think they spent most of the time polishing those new Mustangs--after the car and insurance payments perhaps there wasn't much left for gas? Other guys (who didn't appear to be extravagant spenders) seemed to be out of money the day after payday, with absolutely nothing to show for it. You'd ask them if they wanted to go do something, and they'd complain about not having any money.

Most of us, though, seemed to get by fine. I always had what I wanted, I just had to plan my purchases. I never cancelled a night out on the town for lack of funds. I took my vacations, bought my computers, my bicycles, and the other luxuries that were within my means. I was single, but I was living off-Post. I had my rent and utilities, along with groceries, but I was getting BAS and BAQ. I was never flush with money, but I was never hurting, either.

Most of those who were hurting were hurting because of their own choices. They got married young and started a family young--they knew what they were making, and made their choices. Or they purchased over-the-top items by taking out debt. Once again, they knew their incomes and made their choices. They aren't children.

I like Scott's idea, as it seems like a fair one that could be addressed. If a military person can prove that they would be out of the country and ineligible to make an insurance claim, they should be able to suspend their membership or have the period prorated.

abel_pranger

Franklin_m,

Thank for your service. I am very grateful for what you have done, and appreciate your initiative to do even more in support of those that have interrupted their lives to serve our country. I'm disturbed by the reception you have been given here by a few. It reminds me of the shameful reception troops returning from Vietnam were accorded by their countrymen. Anyway, nice try, but I really don't foresee anything of substance coming from AMA to back up their proclamation of support for those that serve in the military. Nearly every American does more, if only because they pay their taxes. AMA doesn't.

Abel

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

Outside of the military, sure. Within it, where many bases have in the past and could now support flying fields if there were a demand, not so much. It's a function of the desires of the military members, and the willingness of their leadership to provide the opportunities.

They give discounts to families, children, and the elderly. No present or former military member is excluded from those discounts--then can have a family, an interested child, or could be retired and living on their fixed income. Those are fair and reasonable discounts for fair and reasonable reasons. I don't mind that people over 65 get $10 off, or that a family is encouraged to participate in the hobby along with dad, or that children (who really don't have much control over their income--far less than any E-1 or E-2, certainly) get a steep discount.

The message being sent is that the AMA values participation. It isn't any sort of exclusionary message, no matter how hard to try to paint it as such.

So don't patronize organizations that rub you the wrong way. There's a difference between that and begging. You appear to have choices in terms of where you fly, and AMA membership appears to be an option for you, not a requirement. If you feel strongly about what you've said, cancel your membership. Make sure you let them know that you wouldn't have done so if they hadn't stuck a "thank you" on their website. It'll make as much sense to them as it makes to many of us.

You have a larger issue here. You have a personal problem with people thanking you for your service, but not giving you anything. You need to realize the gift that you have been given with the opportunity to serve. If that gift isn't enough for you, you need to reevaluate what you are doing in life. You are under no obligation to continue your service. No one is under any obligation to give you anything for your service. Your service is a personal, private decision that you have made. Any gratuity or discount extended to you by any organization is not an obligation on their part--it is a gift, and like all gifts only has value if given freely and without coercion. If you cannot appreciate a heartfelt thanks for what you are doing, then it is time for you to reevaluate your reasons for being where you are.

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

You'd best be willing to give him something beyond your kind and sincere words, from the sounds of it. Got your checkbook out?

50%plane

My Feedback: (5)

Abel,
Why don't you look at just who is not giving Franklin_m a warm reception:

MikeL: former military
DavidAgar: veteran
50%plane: active duty

franklin_m

I think that we're at a point where we'll have to agree to disagree.

Those who talked about how folks spend their money are correct, life is about choices. Those choices say things about people as individuals and organizations as a whole. I freely admit that my choice to engage on this issue says something about me, as does others engagement of me say something about them. I think it's also fair to say that AMA's choices of whom to support with words and whom to support with reduced fees says something about the AMA.

Now it's up to all of us to make our own choices.

scottrc

The AMA is a large, representative democratic, organization where policies are generated by a majority who will try to maintain a statu quo. When the reduced fees were granted to seniors, it was because the majority of the voting membership who were active fit this demographic. Now that their numbers are reducing, the leadership needed to focus on the next largest demographic which includes families and kids in hopes to get young dads (and moms) into the organization. and guess what, policies are now in place to entice this segment.

The core segment in the AMA is the 18 to 64 year olds who form the base to support the needs of the organization hence why they also have a larger contribution requirement. The reduced membership for children and families are an indirect benefit for this segment. Many servicepeople fit in this segment.

Until servicemembers unite and start lobbying their AMA reps, don't expect to see any policies directed to only servicepeople anytime soon.

abel_pranger

I didn't fail to take notice of that, Chris.

Don't make any rash assumptions about what others here have or have not done just because they don't trumpet it.

Abel

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Well, this thread was started in an abrasive manner. I can imagine that it would bring out strong opinions. Truth of the matter is that plenty of places give discounts to active military and the AMA should take a long hard look at the idea. Keep in mind that it's unlikely to reduce revenue because you would have more people signing up to make up the difference left from the guys that are already members and would get the new discount.

The personal attacks being made on franklin_m are very unbecoming. Yes, I'm talking to you MikeL.

franklin_m

ptulmer,

Appreciate your action as a wingman. Looking back at my post starting this all, I thought it was pretty softly worded. But not much in this world can't be improved upon, so will keep that in mind. Again, thanks for covering my six.

Hossfly

Other than your last statement, franklin-m. where many people make such statement just to show MORAL SUPPORT which is a _ell of a lot more than a bunch of a certain group of people (people? not really!) in a little district next to a state called Virginia and some others there abouts are giving now, I have to say that I am very impressed with your post. It sheds a whole 'different light on things.

Now that idea of scottrc's about time extension of servicemen is a darn good one. The serviceman is now exempt from Federal Income Tax while serving in a combat zone. I can see no reason why a serviceman could not be extended his AMA time while serving in an overseas zone supporting or in a combat area. In addition, those NG & Res. troops called to active duty could also be suspended from dues while out of country. AMA could do that. If I were AMA President, I would work for it big time. You betchum.

Taildrager-inactive

My Feedback: (11)

Our tax dollars pay service men & women for their labor, yes its a job, their food, their lodging, their medical, their eduacation. I beleive thats quite enough financial support as $58 is a drop in the bucket that anyone with a will to join can afford. They also get overseas pay, combat pay, hazardious duty pay, jump pay, that I can think of right now. Also you cannot support the troops unless you also support the war effort, think about it next time you say "oh I support the troops".

abel_pranger

Sounds like those guys and gals have it made in the shade. It must be real hard to get aboard that gravy boat.

As for your final thought, don't know where you dug up that notion. I was against the "war effort" from the git go, and found myself in a small minority. I supported the troops, though, big time. That was part of the reason I was against the war effort - I didn't want lives and sturdy bodies of the troops I support wasted in the way they have been as things came to pass. Now I'm no longer in the minority, though it wasn't me that changed position about the folly of being embroiled in that war. Never changed my position about supporting the troops, either. I'm pleased to observe what has become a majority of other Americans continue to support the troops, too - and apparently have no difficulty in reconciling that position with not supporting the war effort.


Abel

PLANE JIM

My Feedback: (109)

So Abel -where does your post fit in with the topic???

BUDMAN27

I see what you are saying franklin m. but what the heck that is the American way. Take all you can get and if anything gose wrong blame someone ells.now a days you can,t hardly finde a coke in a park for less that 3 dollars. money makes the world go around.So to ask AMA or any other org. to help a poor little GI out is out of the Qwestion. I am a vet myself and I,m not about to ask AMA for a hand out. But then again I don,t give them no hand out either.

abel_pranger

Well Jim, the topic raised by the OP was an appeal for AMA to do something of a tangible nature to support the troops, to back up the apparently vacuous pronouncements made that they were doing that. The post you refer to was my reply to somebody that said the troops were generously compensated and and didn't need such support from anybody. It was of a general nature at the same level as what it was in reply to that did not mention support of the troops by AMA specifically, but given the contextual framework provided by the thread it is contained in I thought it sufficiently on topic. I suspect you don't agree with my position on the matter else you might have directed your inquiry to to the poster I replied to instead. Is that an accurate assessment?

Abel

PLANE JIM

My Feedback: (109)

Abel, first of all you do not know me or what I think, Secondly I am going to resist the urge to curse, flame , degrade, insult or embarrass you for the simple reason you take care this on your own thru your post. It is amazing to me that people will post a brash statement to another individual on this forum, but would never make the same statement in person due to self preservation.

A good rule in assessing a individual is to be a observer and not a responder, but some people never achieve this in life nor have the desire.

Now back to the topic