AQ500

Just Wondering.......

Who is exempt from following all AMA rules at an AMA sanctioned event?

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

O.K...there MUST be a story here!

J_R

Without any other information, this must be an English test. Anyone CAN break the rules. Whether they MAY break the rules is another question.

JR

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

DId you pass?

JIMESTES

My Feedback: (8)

AQ500 you know as well as I do it all depends on who you know, and if they think you have crowd drawing talent then you can do what ever you want and you don't really have to abide by the AMA sanctioned event guidelines (after all they are just guidelines not rules that are subject to interpretation). Such as taking off or landing with out calling out you intentions, turbines flying over or behind the flight line, heli's over the runway or powered feathers doing tail touches on the runway all of this kind of behavior is ok if you know the right person. But if you don't know the right guy you better not do any of this or you could lose your privilege to fly or might not even get invited back to there field.



Later Jim

J_R

Maybe I spoke too soon. It looks like I have an opportunity to learn something from this thread.

Where do I find these "AMA sanctioned event guidelines" that are not rules? Where can I find anything that is a "guideline" that allows flying behind the flight line?

I know where the rule book is, I know where the Safety Code is. I know what the responsibilities of a CD are. Apparently, I missed the "AMA sanctioned event guidelines".

Thanks in advance for the help.

JR

JIMESTES

My Feedback: (8)

I was replying in "jest" to how some rules are enforced on some and not others during events.
I was at an event recently that AQ500 was also present at and we both observed rules being broken but nothing was said to the pilots. So therefore the CD must have thought that it was ok. So being that the "rules" were not being enforced they must be being interpreted as only "guidelines" because we know a competent CD would not knowingly let a "rule" be broken.

later Jim

J_R

Jim

I'm sorry. I didn't read your post the way you wrote it. Thanks for taking the time to set it straight. My bad.

JR

JIMESTES

My Feedback: (8)

No problem

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

Does the title of CD also include an all-seeing crystal ball? If so, you've just made my decision to become a CD easy.

The CD can't be everywhere and see everything going on. It's up to everyone to make sure that the rules are enforced. From the tone of your post, it sounds as if you watched these infractions from a distance, with concerned looks on your faces, but didn't lift a finger or say a word.

Most of the infractions you mentioned in your "jest" post are not infractions. If you can't fly over the runway, how can you take off and land? What AMA rule says helicopters can't fly over the runway, or airplanes can't do tail touches? Those are club-specific rules, which can be waived by the CD during events.

I'll agree that flying over or behind the flight line is a big no-no, though. However, unless it was happening regularly, it was almost certainly an HONEST MISTAKE. Sorry we can't all be pefect like you two.

J_R

A few years ago, the CD program was changed. The changes have created problems. Some of the newer CD's do not realize their responsibility to safety and the rules. CD's have sanctioned events and let others run them, not even showing up at the event themselves.

The driving force behind these folks seems to be that the manufacture's will not donate items to the clubs unless the event is AMA sanctioned. The simple solution is for the club to get a CD. It has become too easy to become a CD and the traditional requirements have disappeared.

The AMA knows it has a problem. There is an AD HOC committee trying to come up with a solution.

There is a mechanism for the contestant to complain to the AMA, but, it is cumbersome and most folks are not going to go through that confrontational approach. Most people want to fly and have fun, not cause a scene.

It's a case of a few bad apples causing a problem. Most CD's, even the newer ones, take the task seriously.

JR

JIMESTES

My Feedback: (8)

Where in my post did I claim to be perfect?
My wife will verify that I am indeed not perfect.
later Jim

Bill Vargas

My Feedback: (5)

Originally posted by J_R
Without any other information, this must be an English test. Anyone CAN break the rules. Whether they MAY break the rules is another question.

JR


DId you pass?



The Grades are in,,, He Passed! and as a bonus, you'll be recieving another $12.00 dollar bottle of whine,,,, Priceless



BV

AQ500

"The CD can't be everywhere and see everything going on. It's up to everyone to make sure that the rules are enforced. From the tone of your post, it sounds as if you watched these infractions from a distance, with concerned looks on your faces, but didn't lift a finger or say a word. "

Words were said to officials and the violations were not by mistake, repearted all day long, and very easy to spot. It was not an honest mistake.

The reason I started this post is that I go to many fly-ins around the area every year. I have noticed a double standard at many of the events. The rules are strictly enforced with threats of being banned from flying. Then others are ignored while breaking the rules over and over and over.

I was once at a fly-in flying one of my Quickees. I was approached and told that if I didn't watch my altitude I would be shut down. (This came from an AMA rep.) I don't think I was too high. A plane with a 4' wingspan looks farther away than it is. I am always trying to keep the rules to the best of my ability. If I do make a violation it is rare and I try not to do it again. The rest of the day, especially when the jet took off and the large scale aircraft began flying the altitude rule was being broken severly time after time and not a word was said to those pilots. Is there a double standard?.....yes.

At this later event Jim was talking about, I pointed out the rule violation (most serious of many noticed). A jet was being flown 200 feet behind the flight line. I have video of it. I don't care how good of a pilot you are. If one elevon servo goes, the 165 mph, 30 lb fire bomb is going in. Not to mention the plane had lost one of it's rudders a day before due to flutter. Now imagine if one of the elevons fluttered off behind the flight line. The pilot was talked to and he never complied and was allowed to continue to break rules. I brought it up to the same AMA rep that got on my case at an earlier fly-in. I was amazed at the response when I told him that I didn't appreciate the double standard. At first I was uninvited to fly at his home field because I didn't like the ways the rules were enforced and he wasn't about to do anything about the rule violations. He also told me that if I wanted to file a complaint I needed to confront the pilot with him. I refused to do it because it is a rule that is being broken and the pilot should have been talked to and not come in the form of a personal complaint. He then talked to the pilot with the CD which should have been done much earlier. We then met and talked about it and apologies were made. The pilot complied for one flight and then went back to flying the pattern way behind the flight line and not a word was said the rest of the time. Now why didn't they talk to him again or threaten to shut him down?

I'm sure that if a trainer plane was flown in the same area over and over, words would have been said and planes grounded.

I just think that the rules at events should be enforced to all fairly with no exceptions. I don't think it should depend on age or how much $$$$$ you have in the air. I don't know why there is a pilot's meeting at all if the discussed rules are ignored.

JIMESTES

My Feedback: (8)

Well put AQ500
You did a lot better explaining than I could have.
later Jim

klhoard

My Feedback: (10)

It all comes down to the CD and / or Safety Officer setting the standard, then enforcing it.

The enforcement part is the toughest, especially if the violator is one of your friends or a popular club member with a "clique" of followers. In college, this was a class called "group dynamics" and you see it every day.

In this day of litigation, can you imagine if the jet DID auger into the crowd and the accident was caught on tape? Especially if the tape has a couple of the previous passes on it? Think about the Rhode Island night club fire that was caught on tape, and all of the resulting finger pointing.

I guess my point is that if you are a CD and don't apply the safety rules to EVERYONE EQUALLY, then you are setting yourself up for personal legal disaster.

rsallen13

My Feedback: (1)

You should:

1) Notify your District VP, in writing, of the circumstances surrounding the above incident. Include the name of the Club, CD and Pilot. If you have witness to the flight and the discussions ensure that information is duly noted and highlighted. Provide that information if requested.

2) Indicate that this issue is being followed by a sizable group on RCU.

3) Forward a copy of the above letter to all the members of the EC, the competition committee and the safety committee.

4) Ask for their feedback on this issue. Do not recommend any action. Give them time to follow up on the issue.

5) Be sure to express concern and do so in the nicest way possible.(honey vs salt theory).

6) After a appropriate amount of time (couple of weeks) follow up with a letter and possibly a phone call or two to HQ, nicely requesting the status of your safety violation report if you have not heard back from them.

7) Post the responses if and when you get them, specifying who you communicated with.

8) Finally continue to make contact with you Dist VP and HQ until you feel that either it is resolved to your satisfaction or HQ and the VP have blown you off.

9) Post the resolution here and allow AMA members to see if this bureaucracy actually will do anything to enforce safe flight and to discipline ineffective CD's

JIMESTES

My Feedback: (8)

deleted by creator

AQ500

I made it so you can vote multiple times. I feel sorry for that regular sport pilot..

rcmodelr

If the CD is responsible to disipline rules violators at the event, Who's job is it to make sure the CD abides by the rules he is to enforce???

The second to last fun-fly I attended when I lived in Minnesota, I was there all day, and didn't notice ANY rules violations. Then, early afternoon, the pilot numbers had thinned out quite a bit. The CD decided the activity had died down enough that HE could get a few flights in. When the CD started flying, from takeoff to landing, the CD's flights were almost like watching somebody demonstrating. The way he was violating rules one after another, he should have had an announcer explaining the flight.
The CD's flight, with an announcer commentating would have been something like:
Announcer; NO Pilot is to fly behind the designated flight line.... LIKE THIS (CD flys behind flight line).
Announcer; Despite the wind directions, ALL takeoffs and landings are to be made on the runway moving from left to right. NO maneuvers putting the flight path of your plane headed toward spectator area will be tollerated... such as this (CD performs a touch & go WITH the wind, plane headed directly toward spectator area, after takeoff, flight continues OVER spectator area, 1/2 cuban 8 turnaround OVER spectators and lands into the wind, headed from over spectators away from pilot area, almost 90 degrees to designated takeoff & landing direction.

Good news was that I was NOT the only pilot to confront the CD. He insisted on making several more flights that day, but decided to QUIT being a CD the following year.