An AMA alternative ?
02-27-2003, 04:26 PM
#1
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MD
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An AMA alternative ?
I'm sure many of you have wondered about this. I'm also sure that there has been ample discussions on the subject. This is just a simple question. Forget the pros and cons for now. This is a serious question. When you are done, Mark (aka: littlecrankshaf) posted a thread with a vote option. Using it would be great!...............................
1.) If an insurance company came along and made an effort at publicly announcing a policy to insure flyers with exactly the same coverage as the AMA...under all the same conditions and events, would you take it for $40.00...$35.00 if it meant you could fly?
2.) What if a policy was written by an aviation company who specializes in air show insurance, aviation and sporting events specifically. Would you club officers accept it? If you did would it break the bubble that sanctioning provided you?
3.) (For club officers)what if clubs could be insured for events and their fields. Would anyone have a heartache over this if it provided the same general protection that sanctioning does?
4.)Other than acceptance, are you aware of anything important with regards to insurance coverage or anything else that would limit the enjoyment of our hobby by members who chose to go in this direction?
The idea is simple. Let the AMA support themselves with those most interested in AMA benefits. At the same time, let those who don't enjoy ALL the benefits enjoy the hobby without liability risks to themselves or to their clubs.
There's an insurance company currently reviewing this. Apparently they gained access to information concerning membership and financial standings of the AMA and took an interest. I don't know what they have but I do know that they are studying it and asking questions.
I believe (from sources) that if a viable number of people became interested in this, it could become a reality by 2004 renewal time. Efforts at establishing a membership will depend on word of mouth and whatever they decide to advertise. Obviously, an overview of benefits and how they would affect clubs, officers, events and overall membership would have to be brought forward prior to taking it seriously. The good thing for them is that they don't rely solely on RC for their revenues. They also don't force anyone to take a magazine. The overhead is already in place. They are an 'insurance only' entity.
If you feel like supporting something like this I suggest you contact this email: [email protected]
This is the Point Of Contact on our end. He's in direct contact with the insurance company. I'd suggest that anyone contact him to share your thoughts.
This isn't a business deal. Its a discussion to promote our interests in the hobby of Radio Controlled Aircraft. Lets keep it that way!!
Your information will be shared only with the insurance company.
1.) If an insurance company came along and made an effort at publicly announcing a policy to insure flyers with exactly the same coverage as the AMA...under all the same conditions and events, would you take it for $40.00...$35.00 if it meant you could fly?
2.) What if a policy was written by an aviation company who specializes in air show insurance, aviation and sporting events specifically. Would you club officers accept it? If you did would it break the bubble that sanctioning provided you?
3.) (For club officers)what if clubs could be insured for events and their fields. Would anyone have a heartache over this if it provided the same general protection that sanctioning does?
4.)Other than acceptance, are you aware of anything important with regards to insurance coverage or anything else that would limit the enjoyment of our hobby by members who chose to go in this direction?
The idea is simple. Let the AMA support themselves with those most interested in AMA benefits. At the same time, let those who don't enjoy ALL the benefits enjoy the hobby without liability risks to themselves or to their clubs.
There's an insurance company currently reviewing this. Apparently they gained access to information concerning membership and financial standings of the AMA and took an interest. I don't know what they have but I do know that they are studying it and asking questions.
I believe (from sources) that if a viable number of people became interested in this, it could become a reality by 2004 renewal time. Efforts at establishing a membership will depend on word of mouth and whatever they decide to advertise. Obviously, an overview of benefits and how they would affect clubs, officers, events and overall membership would have to be brought forward prior to taking it seriously. The good thing for them is that they don't rely solely on RC for their revenues. They also don't force anyone to take a magazine. The overhead is already in place. They are an 'insurance only' entity.
If you feel like supporting something like this I suggest you contact this email: [email protected]
This is the Point Of Contact on our end. He's in direct contact with the insurance company. I'd suggest that anyone contact him to share your thoughts.
This isn't a business deal. Its a discussion to promote our interests in the hobby of Radio Controlled Aircraft. Lets keep it that way!!
Your information will be shared only with the insurance company.
02-27-2003, 05:07 PM
#2
Senior Member
My Feedback: (5)
Re: An AMA alternative ?
Originally posted by Flug
[B]I'm sure many of you have wondered about this. I'm also sure that there has been ample discussions on the subject. This is just a simple question. Forget the pros and cons for now. This is a serious question................................
1.) If an insurance company came along and made an effort at publicly announcing a policy to insure flyers with exactly the same coverage as the AMA...under all the same conditions and events, would you take it for $40.00...$35.00 if it meant you could fly?
[B]I'm sure many of you have wondered about this. I'm also sure that there has been ample discussions on the subject. This is just a simple question. Forget the pros and cons for now. This is a serious question................................
1.) If an insurance company came along and made an effort at publicly announcing a policy to insure flyers with exactly the same coverage as the AMA...under all the same conditions and events, would you take it for $40.00...$35.00 if it meant you could fly?
Hmmm, sounds good,,, but, do you think AMA will accept it at an event sanctioned by the AMA,,, such as the NATS or other local contests
?
BV
02-27-2003, 05:18 PM
#3
Senior Member
My Feedback: (16)
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Locust Grove,
GA
Posts: 12,942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An AMA alternative ?
If the scenario that you are portraying would also allow me to fly at other fields, then yes! Other than that, having insurance is meaningless if you can't fly at the available clubs!
02-27-2003, 06:32 PM
#5
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MD
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An AMA alternative ?
This would be insurance for you to fly at your club and any other club unless the AMA prevents you from doing that because they have sanctioned it.
02-27-2003, 06:50 PM
#6
An AMA alternative ?
I don't think I'd cancel my AMA for this. Chances are pretty good this won't be accepted as insurance for an AMA event, such as SFA in the past. If I cancelled AMA and used this new insurer, I can't fly at my current AMA chartered field. I can't fly at the events I normally go to. And I have no qualms against the AMA magazine.
It might be a route to approach for someone who doesn't attend events, and just wants to fly in their own "little universe." Nothing wrong with that. In the long run, would it be price competitive? I remember SFA membership costs were going up before they went belly-up...
Good Luck.
It might be a route to approach for someone who doesn't attend events, and just wants to fly in their own "little universe." Nothing wrong with that. In the long run, would it be price competitive? I remember SFA membership costs were going up before they went belly-up...
Good Luck.
02-27-2003, 06:57 PM
#7
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MD
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An AMA alternative ?
Now, if a totally legitimate insurance company comes up with a totally acceptable insurance package, why wouldn't the AMA let you participate in their event?
02-27-2003, 07:41 PM
#8
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MD
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An AMA alternative ?
This would be for non-AMA events. If you are a competitor, or if a club has already allowed the AMA to decide who can and can't fly at their site through sanctioning...Well, I guess they'd have to decide if they'd be willing to open it up again with new insurance. Of course, the insurance would give the club the same coverage.
Ron S.
I posted the last question because it makes a point. We cannot fly in AMA events because they say we can't. There's no justification, they just won't let it happen. Is this a good way to promote the hobby? I wish more would think for a minute about this.
Anyway, yes, it would be for people and there clubs across the USA. Not for the AMA events. On the other hand, if the AMA clubs wanted to join us in sharing the fun of events...they could.
I don't think this company is too concerned about losing us. Underwriting a policy for us is nothing to them. We're just a little piece of a very big pie. The key is waiting for the new year and having interested people jump over at the right time. Between now and then it would be a good time to start promoting it.
Remember...A CLUB SHOULD HAVE THE SAME OPTION. They may not call it sanctioning but it would be liability insurance for events, and the club field. It just wouldn't be AMA.
There are very few clubs overall in which all members fly in an event. Events don't have to be AMA santioned either....unless the club doesn't have other insurance. There is no reason in the world why a club couldn't have a full fledged show with all the benefits of an AMA sanctioned club show. They just have to have the insurance to cover it. The vendors, the members and all the extras will come regardless. They don't care. They just want to have fun and be covered.
Ron S.
I posted the last question because it makes a point. We cannot fly in AMA events because they say we can't. There's no justification, they just won't let it happen. Is this a good way to promote the hobby? I wish more would think for a minute about this.
Anyway, yes, it would be for people and there clubs across the USA. Not for the AMA events. On the other hand, if the AMA clubs wanted to join us in sharing the fun of events...they could.
I don't think this company is too concerned about losing us. Underwriting a policy for us is nothing to them. We're just a little piece of a very big pie. The key is waiting for the new year and having interested people jump over at the right time. Between now and then it would be a good time to start promoting it.
Remember...A CLUB SHOULD HAVE THE SAME OPTION. They may not call it sanctioning but it would be liability insurance for events, and the club field. It just wouldn't be AMA.
There are very few clubs overall in which all members fly in an event. Events don't have to be AMA santioned either....unless the club doesn't have other insurance. There is no reason in the world why a club couldn't have a full fledged show with all the benefits of an AMA sanctioned club show. They just have to have the insurance to cover it. The vendors, the members and all the extras will come regardless. They don't care. They just want to have fun and be covered.
02-27-2003, 08:38 PM
#10
Senior Member
My Feedback: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: KS
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AMA
The AMA is not just an Insurance Policy , the benifits available are for the HOBBY and the entire membership not the individual members.
You can't particiapte in an IMAA event without being an IMAA member, you can't race in Winston and not be a member of NASCAR , You can't fly at an AMA event without being an AMA member (in most cases) .
Why is this such hard thing to understand.
You can't particiapte in an IMAA event without being an IMAA member, you can't race in Winston and not be a member of NASCAR , You can't fly at an AMA event without being an AMA member (in most cases) .
Why is this such hard thing to understand.
02-27-2003, 08:51 PM
#11
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MD
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An AMA alternative ?
Why is this such hard thing to understand?
Its not. Don't forget. We're talking about thousands of fun loving guys who like to fly as a hobby. We enjoy going to the field and mingling with the crowd...helping eachother etc. It's not the Winston Cup.
We only want insurance and the ability to share our interests at other fields. Not a big deal...really.
By the way, I don't see racing club members across the country having to join Winston. There are plenty of car shows and Saturday night Drag races out there too. You just have to pay an entry fee.
Its not. Don't forget. We're talking about thousands of fun loving guys who like to fly as a hobby. We enjoy going to the field and mingling with the crowd...helping eachother etc. It's not the Winston Cup.
We only want insurance and the ability to share our interests at other fields. Not a big deal...really.
By the way, I don't see racing club members across the country having to join Winston. There are plenty of car shows and Saturday night Drag races out there too. You just have to pay an entry fee.
02-27-2003, 08:59 PM
#12
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 763
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An AMA alternative ?
An insurance company already exists that offers individual, field, and event coverage (UMA). They have operating for a year or more, so we know it has a chance at being viable. However, I'm not aware of a huge number of clubs signing up with them.
On the event entry issue: There is more to sanctioning an event than insurance, particularly if it's a competitive event running to nationally recognised rules. It's not unreasonable that a sanctioning body require you to be a member of that body.
On the event entry issue: There is more to sanctioning an event than insurance, particularly if it's a competitive event running to nationally recognised rules. It's not unreasonable that a sanctioning body require you to be a member of that body.
02-27-2003, 09:39 PM
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Olcott, NY
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: An AMA alternative ?
Originally posted by Flug
I'm sure many of you have wondered about this. I'm also sure that there has been ample discussions on the subject. This is just a simple question. Forget the pros and cons for now. This is a serious question................................
1.) If an insurance company came along and made an effort at publicly announcing a policy to insure flyers with exactly the same coverage as the AMA...under all the same conditions and events, would you take it for $40.00...$35.00 if it meant you could fly?
2.) What if a policy was written by an aviation company who specializes in air show insurance, aviation and sporting events specifically. Would you club officers accept it? If you did would it break the bubble that sanctioning provided you?
3.) (For club officers)what if clubs could be insured for events and their fields. Would anyone have a heartache over this if it provided the same general protection that sanctioning does?
4.)Other than acceptance, are you aware of anything important with regards to insurance coverage or anything else that would limit the enjoyment of our hobby by members who chose to go in this direction?
The idea is simple. Let the AMA support themselves with those most interested in AMA benefits. At the same time, let those who don't enjoy ALL the benefits enjoy the hobby without liability risks to themselves or to their clubs.
There's an insurance company currently reviewing this. Apparently they gained access to information concerning membership and financial standings of the AMA and took an interest. I don't know what they have but I do know that they are studying it and asking questions.
I believe (from sources) that if a viable number of people became interested in this, it could become a reality by 2004 renewal time. Efforts at establishing a membership will depend on word of mouth and whatever they decide to advertise. Obviously, an overview of benefits and how they would affect clubs, officers, events and overall membership would have to be brought forward prior to taking it seriously. The good thing for them is that they don't rely solely on RC for their revenues. They also don't force anyone to take a magazine. The overhead is already in place. They are an 'insurance only' entity.
If you feel like supporting something like this I suggest you contact this email: [email protected]
This is the Point Of Contact on our end. He's in direct contact with the insurance company. I'd suggest that anyone contact him to share your thoughts.
This isn't a business deal. Its a discussion to promote our interests in the hobby of Radio Controlled Aircraft. Lets keep it that way!!
Your information will be shared only with the insurance company.
I'm sure many of you have wondered about this. I'm also sure that there has been ample discussions on the subject. This is just a simple question. Forget the pros and cons for now. This is a serious question................................
1.) If an insurance company came along and made an effort at publicly announcing a policy to insure flyers with exactly the same coverage as the AMA...under all the same conditions and events, would you take it for $40.00...$35.00 if it meant you could fly?
2.) What if a policy was written by an aviation company who specializes in air show insurance, aviation and sporting events specifically. Would you club officers accept it? If you did would it break the bubble that sanctioning provided you?
3.) (For club officers)what if clubs could be insured for events and their fields. Would anyone have a heartache over this if it provided the same general protection that sanctioning does?
4.)Other than acceptance, are you aware of anything important with regards to insurance coverage or anything else that would limit the enjoyment of our hobby by members who chose to go in this direction?
The idea is simple. Let the AMA support themselves with those most interested in AMA benefits. At the same time, let those who don't enjoy ALL the benefits enjoy the hobby without liability risks to themselves or to their clubs.
There's an insurance company currently reviewing this. Apparently they gained access to information concerning membership and financial standings of the AMA and took an interest. I don't know what they have but I do know that they are studying it and asking questions.
I believe (from sources) that if a viable number of people became interested in this, it could become a reality by 2004 renewal time. Efforts at establishing a membership will depend on word of mouth and whatever they decide to advertise. Obviously, an overview of benefits and how they would affect clubs, officers, events and overall membership would have to be brought forward prior to taking it seriously. The good thing for them is that they don't rely solely on RC for their revenues. They also don't force anyone to take a magazine. The overhead is already in place. They are an 'insurance only' entity.
If you feel like supporting something like this I suggest you contact this email: [email protected]
This is the Point Of Contact on our end. He's in direct contact with the insurance company. I'd suggest that anyone contact him to share your thoughts.
This isn't a business deal. Its a discussion to promote our interests in the hobby of Radio Controlled Aircraft. Lets keep it that way!!
Your information will be shared only with the insurance company.
I wonder if they would offer a commercial flight instructor policy?
nascarjoe
02-27-2003, 10:34 PM
#14
An AMA alternative ?
Originally posted by Flug
Now, if a totally legitimate insurance company comes up with a totally acceptable insurance package, why wouldn't the AMA let you participate in their event?
Now, if a totally legitimate insurance company comes up with a totally acceptable insurance package, why wouldn't the AMA let you participate in their event?
If you could have other insurance, and fly at an AMA field or event, I would guess that 70 + % of the AMA members would go with the other company if it gave the same insurance coverage. The AMA would have a tough time covering the expenses on their huge flying field and other expenses they stuck us with if they didn't have a captive audience. They wouldn't allow it, ever! Thats the hard part of going up against a monopoly in this industry. At this point they can dictate the policy to those that want to fly competitivly or at other fields. Those who don't want to do that can buy insurance from whoever they choose. They just cant play at the AMA covered fields.
02-28-2003, 04:27 AM
#15
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MD
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An AMA alternative ?
Right.
So whats the mind set that makes the clubs go AMA in the first place? If club officers had it the other way around and opted to insure their fields with regular insurance, wouldn't this open it up to both sides. Although the AMA would refuse us on their fields, we'd be nice and probably allow anyone on ours. Everyone's covered...shows are covered..everyones happy.
AMA sanctioning is their way of throwing the net on our clubs Unless there is a contstant donation from the AMA in terms of goods and services, whats the big deal with local clubs needing sanctioning. Insurance??
Is this a situation in which club officers think of the AMA Sanctioning as legitimizing their clubs??????It sure seems like it. You know why??? Because nobody has yet to describe the REAL benefits of it. Only the big shows get the real benefits. The rest don't. They get banners and advertisements to further promote the AMA. Maybe a guest...if they're close enough.
So, what if you went to the local store and picked up RCM or another pub in the early part of November and read that there was a totally legit company with insurance for clubs and individuals. What if they had stickers and cards for ID purposes. What if their coverage was even better than the AMA? (*AMA makes you use your insurance first**).
The AMA could have an entry fee at any of their events. It could very easily pay for insurance for the day. They could make this happen easily and affordably. Why don't they do it?
You see, at every turn they got us by the balls. The big picture is nice but when you think about how it all works for them, you begin to see through it all. Many of you see it. Some still can't figure it out.
Every aspect of the AMA is based on keeping those who are involved in big events happy at the expense of those who aren't. They control our clubs, making the officers believe their operations are more legit. They prevent participation of ALL people...limiting it to only those who pay them. They smooth talk us into believing they are a benefit and then turn around and have us pay for their advertising. They have us waiving their flags and displaying their logo across the country. Seriously, what a joke!
I don't care what people voice publicly. I'd sure hope that some of you get involved...or at least write the AMA. Ask them to show some heart. I'd change my thinking tomorrow if they showed some REAL sportsmanship and helped the hobby the way they should.
Incidently...I corrected the email address above. It is a Yahoo address. Not Hotmail.
[email protected]
nascarjoe,
There are many commercial pilots and instructors out there. You may want to get with AIG or USAA. In any case you will be directed to a sub contracted company for insurance specific to your needs...and location.
What's the definition of an Academy?
So whats the mind set that makes the clubs go AMA in the first place? If club officers had it the other way around and opted to insure their fields with regular insurance, wouldn't this open it up to both sides. Although the AMA would refuse us on their fields, we'd be nice and probably allow anyone on ours. Everyone's covered...shows are covered..everyones happy.
AMA sanctioning is their way of throwing the net on our clubs Unless there is a contstant donation from the AMA in terms of goods and services, whats the big deal with local clubs needing sanctioning. Insurance??
Is this a situation in which club officers think of the AMA Sanctioning as legitimizing their clubs??????It sure seems like it. You know why??? Because nobody has yet to describe the REAL benefits of it. Only the big shows get the real benefits. The rest don't. They get banners and advertisements to further promote the AMA. Maybe a guest...if they're close enough.
So, what if you went to the local store and picked up RCM or another pub in the early part of November and read that there was a totally legit company with insurance for clubs and individuals. What if they had stickers and cards for ID purposes. What if their coverage was even better than the AMA? (*AMA makes you use your insurance first**).
The AMA could have an entry fee at any of their events. It could very easily pay for insurance for the day. They could make this happen easily and affordably. Why don't they do it?
You see, at every turn they got us by the balls. The big picture is nice but when you think about how it all works for them, you begin to see through it all. Many of you see it. Some still can't figure it out.
Every aspect of the AMA is based on keeping those who are involved in big events happy at the expense of those who aren't. They control our clubs, making the officers believe their operations are more legit. They prevent participation of ALL people...limiting it to only those who pay them. They smooth talk us into believing they are a benefit and then turn around and have us pay for their advertising. They have us waiving their flags and displaying their logo across the country. Seriously, what a joke!
I don't care what people voice publicly. I'd sure hope that some of you get involved...or at least write the AMA. Ask them to show some heart. I'd change my thinking tomorrow if they showed some REAL sportsmanship and helped the hobby the way they should.
Incidently...I corrected the email address above. It is a Yahoo address. Not Hotmail.
[email protected]
nascarjoe,
There are many commercial pilots and instructors out there. You may want to get with AIG or USAA. In any case you will be directed to a sub contracted company for insurance specific to your needs...and location.
What's the definition of an Academy?
02-28-2003, 06:08 AM
#16
Senior Member
My Feedback: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: KS
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sanctioned Events
Some of the reasons we Sanction events with AMA.
We get our Event published in M.A. and the Web site for free.
The District Contest Coordinator checks to see if there are similar events in the area ar the same time .
AMA keeps records of the results.
We can get event insurance for the landowner if not at the club field , such as a Lake for Float Fly.
We get our Event published in M.A. and the Web site for free.
The District Contest Coordinator checks to see if there are similar events in the area ar the same time .
AMA keeps records of the results.
We can get event insurance for the landowner if not at the club field , such as a Lake for Float Fly.
02-28-2003, 08:08 AM
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Corona, CA,
Posts: 4,444
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An AMA alternative ?
Originally posted by Flug
Right.
So whats the mind set that makes the clubs go AMA in the first place? If club officers had it the other way around and opted to insure their fields with regular insurance, wouldn't this open it up to both sides. Although the AMA would refuse us on their fields, we'd be nice and probably allow anyone on ours. Everyone's covered...shows are covered..everyones happy.
AMA sanctioning is their way of throwing the net on our clubs Unless there is a contstant donation from the AMA in terms of goods and services, whats the big deal with local clubs needing sanctioning. Insurance??
Is this a situation in which club officers think of the AMA Sanctioning as legitimizing their clubs??????It sure seems like it. You know why??? Because nobody has yet to describe the REAL benefits of it. Only the big shows get the real benefits. The rest don't. They get banners and advertisements to further promote the AMA. Maybe a guest...if they're close enough.
So, what if you went to the local store and picked up RCM or another pub in the early part of November and read that there was a totally legit company with insurance for clubs and individuals. What if they had stickers and cards for ID purposes. What if their coverage was even better than the AMA? (*AMA makes you use your insurance first**).
The AMA could have an entry fee at any of their events. It could very easily pay for insurance for the day. They could make this happen easily and affordably. Why don't they do it?
You see, at every turn they got us by the balls. The big picture is nice but when you think about how it all works for them, you begin to see through it all. Many of you see it. Some still can't figure it out.
Every aspect of the AMA is based on keeping those who are involved in big events happy at the expense of those who aren't. They control our clubs, making the officers believe their operations are more legit. They prevent participation of ALL people...limiting it to only those who pay them. They smooth talk us into believing they are a benefit and then turn around and have us pay for their advertising. They have us waiving their flags and displaying their logo across the country. Seriously, what a joke!
I don't care what people voice publicly. I'd sure hope that some of you get involved...or at least write the AMA. Ask them to show some heart. I'd change my thinking tomorrow if they showed some REAL sportsmanship and helped the hobby the way they should.
Incidently...I corrected the email address above. It is a Yahoo address. Not Hotmail.
[email protected]
nascarjoe,
There are many commercial pilots and instructors out there. You may want to get with AIG or USAA. In any case you will be directed to a sub contracted company for insurance specific to your needs...and location.
What's the definition of an Academy?
Right.
So whats the mind set that makes the clubs go AMA in the first place? If club officers had it the other way around and opted to insure their fields with regular insurance, wouldn't this open it up to both sides. Although the AMA would refuse us on their fields, we'd be nice and probably allow anyone on ours. Everyone's covered...shows are covered..everyones happy.
AMA sanctioning is their way of throwing the net on our clubs Unless there is a contstant donation from the AMA in terms of goods and services, whats the big deal with local clubs needing sanctioning. Insurance??
Is this a situation in which club officers think of the AMA Sanctioning as legitimizing their clubs??????It sure seems like it. You know why??? Because nobody has yet to describe the REAL benefits of it. Only the big shows get the real benefits. The rest don't. They get banners and advertisements to further promote the AMA. Maybe a guest...if they're close enough.
So, what if you went to the local store and picked up RCM or another pub in the early part of November and read that there was a totally legit company with insurance for clubs and individuals. What if they had stickers and cards for ID purposes. What if their coverage was even better than the AMA? (*AMA makes you use your insurance first**).
The AMA could have an entry fee at any of their events. It could very easily pay for insurance for the day. They could make this happen easily and affordably. Why don't they do it?
You see, at every turn they got us by the balls. The big picture is nice but when you think about how it all works for them, you begin to see through it all. Many of you see it. Some still can't figure it out.
Every aspect of the AMA is based on keeping those who are involved in big events happy at the expense of those who aren't. They control our clubs, making the officers believe their operations are more legit. They prevent participation of ALL people...limiting it to only those who pay them. They smooth talk us into believing they are a benefit and then turn around and have us pay for their advertising. They have us waiving their flags and displaying their logo across the country. Seriously, what a joke!
I don't care what people voice publicly. I'd sure hope that some of you get involved...or at least write the AMA. Ask them to show some heart. I'd change my thinking tomorrow if they showed some REAL sportsmanship and helped the hobby the way they should.
Incidently...I corrected the email address above. It is a Yahoo address. Not Hotmail.
[email protected]
nascarjoe,
There are many commercial pilots and instructors out there. You may want to get with AIG or USAA. In any case you will be directed to a sub contracted company for insurance specific to your needs...and location.
What's the definition of an Academy?
The AMA owns one field
The AMA charters clubs
Chartered clubs and/or landlords decide what insurance is acceptable. The AMA does not make any decision on what insurance can be used.
Chartered clubs can not and do not sanction events with the AMA. Events are Sanctioned by a CD with the AMA. A sanction may or may not be affiliated with a club. A sanction may or may not be flown at a chartered club field.
The AMA has no problem with anyone having insurance. AMA insurance is secondary. If you have homeowners or UMA, that is fine with them. The homeowners or UMA will be primary. If you have no other insurance, then the AMA insurance becomes primary. The AMA would be happy to recognize your UMA insurance. On the other hand, the chartered club and/or landlord may require AMA membership as well. The club and/or landlord makes that decision, not the AMA.
No insurance is mentioned in a sanctioned event. AMA membership is required. If you want to have UMA, the CD will have no problem with that as long as you are an AMA member.
There is no need to charge extra for insurance at an AMA sanctioned event, but, if you insist, they might try to please you.
Most AMA sanctioned events are not "rule book" events.
There does not seem to be anything coherent in the rest of your babbling to respond to.
If you are interested in the relationship between chartered clubs and the AMA, read the 2003 club recharter package on the AMA site carefully, or..... do as you are doing and keep babbling garbage.
JR
03-01-2003, 08:22 PM
#18
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MD
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An AMA alternative ?
JR,
The problem with you is that you are so in tune with the details your failing to see whats important to others. There needs to be an insurance only option for clubs and individuals. Thats it....plain and simple.
I want the option of being able to tell the local club..."hey, I'm covered. Do you mind if I fly?" I don't want the response.."Sorry, we are an AMA chartered club" If I go to an AMA sanctioned event I would like to ask...Is it possible to fly if I pay an entry fee for insurance purposes?" I think a response of "Sorry, this is an AMA event" isn't condusive to the hobby. It also doesn't go along with the AMA's mission statement.
You can pretend (with all the others) that this is some kind of campaign of ignorance. There's no argument on the basics I mentioned above. Maybe there is with how I've arranged the facts. I think you're all perfectly capaable of seeing beyond that though. I'm not here to go toe to toe with half the AMA officers.
Believe me, I've dealt with issues of great magnitude. Coming up against a group of hard core allies on one side of an issue isn't new to me. As overwhelming as it may seem to you, it's silly to me and definitely not something I feel like spending my life to understand. On the other hand, it's not difficult to see and understand it quickly.
Yes, as I mentioned before, I could look at everything you refer to. The first time I did I found that it supported exactly what I was saying the whole time. Thanks!
A word of wisdom to you and yours...Its much easier to 'Go with the Flow' on this one. The most interested aren't here. The watch dogs are.
Now it's my turn....Talking down to someone who's as smart as you doesn't work. Stop trying to throw the blanket over the world. People know whats going on here. Details don't help the argument if the big picture is obvious to everyone. Correcting people at every turn only shows one thing. It shows that the individual has the time to do it. It doesn't mean anything else.
Just remember...I'm in the AMA because I like to fly too. By the way, I just got my magazine. To tell you the truth, it wasn't all that bad. They really have their fingers around us....don't they?
The problem with you is that you are so in tune with the details your failing to see whats important to others. There needs to be an insurance only option for clubs and individuals. Thats it....plain and simple.
I want the option of being able to tell the local club..."hey, I'm covered. Do you mind if I fly?" I don't want the response.."Sorry, we are an AMA chartered club" If I go to an AMA sanctioned event I would like to ask...Is it possible to fly if I pay an entry fee for insurance purposes?" I think a response of "Sorry, this is an AMA event" isn't condusive to the hobby. It also doesn't go along with the AMA's mission statement.
You can pretend (with all the others) that this is some kind of campaign of ignorance. There's no argument on the basics I mentioned above. Maybe there is with how I've arranged the facts. I think you're all perfectly capaable of seeing beyond that though. I'm not here to go toe to toe with half the AMA officers.
Believe me, I've dealt with issues of great magnitude. Coming up against a group of hard core allies on one side of an issue isn't new to me. As overwhelming as it may seem to you, it's silly to me and definitely not something I feel like spending my life to understand. On the other hand, it's not difficult to see and understand it quickly.
Yes, as I mentioned before, I could look at everything you refer to. The first time I did I found that it supported exactly what I was saying the whole time. Thanks!
A word of wisdom to you and yours...Its much easier to 'Go with the Flow' on this one. The most interested aren't here. The watch dogs are.
Now it's my turn....Talking down to someone who's as smart as you doesn't work. Stop trying to throw the blanket over the world. People know whats going on here. Details don't help the argument if the big picture is obvious to everyone. Correcting people at every turn only shows one thing. It shows that the individual has the time to do it. It doesn't mean anything else.
Just remember...I'm in the AMA because I like to fly too. By the way, I just got my magazine. To tell you the truth, it wasn't all that bad. They really have their fingers around us....don't they?
03-01-2003, 09:24 PM
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Corona, CA,
Posts: 4,444
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An AMA alternative ?
Flug
I think you are having a tough time seeing the reality of the situation. We are in a hobby that can not be carried out just anywhere. One that has some inherent dangers. One where individuals refuse to give total control to any organization, including the AMA.
You have seen posts from some chartered club officers, officers elected by their club memberships, not appointed by the AMA. Clubs want to do things the way they want to. They only put up with what they consider to be reasonable limitations and restrictions. The members of the club are simply not going to take their time and effort to accommodate those that do not want to make it easy on them. This was shown in some posts as a refusal to research insurance for individuals. Most officers are not going to ask their club dues paying members to just let anyone fly (as opposed to AMA dues paying members).
Can you expect the people that pay for land and improvement to let you fly just because you would like to? A lot of those people put sweat as well as money into their clubs.
I think there is something else along these lines that you apparently have not run into. Chartered clubs are not required to let other AMA members fly at their field... and not all do. Some have clubs that do not allow anyone other than club members to fly, period. Other clubs will let AMA member visitors fly. Some clubs are on public sites and anyone may fly, with or without insurance.
One club, within 5 miles of me, charges AMA visitors $10 a day to fly IF they have a club member with them. If not, the AMA visitor may not fly at all.
My point is that the AMA does not control all the actions of it's chartered clubs. The club makes it's own decisions on most matters. I will grant you that obeying the safety code is not one of the things a club can ignore.
AMA sanctioned events are just that. They are run by and for AMA members.
When you take into consideration that in 2001 only about $4 of your AMA dues went to purchase commercial insurance, where else could you go to get insurance?
Your wanting to fly, or compete is predicated on the people that have control of the site or event deferring to you. Your desire to participate without being a member is more than most of them are going to be willing to give. What is important to you and others (your term) may not be important to them, and the "them" is other flyers, not the AMA.
JR
I think you are having a tough time seeing the reality of the situation. We are in a hobby that can not be carried out just anywhere. One that has some inherent dangers. One where individuals refuse to give total control to any organization, including the AMA.
You have seen posts from some chartered club officers, officers elected by their club memberships, not appointed by the AMA. Clubs want to do things the way they want to. They only put up with what they consider to be reasonable limitations and restrictions. The members of the club are simply not going to take their time and effort to accommodate those that do not want to make it easy on them. This was shown in some posts as a refusal to research insurance for individuals. Most officers are not going to ask their club dues paying members to just let anyone fly (as opposed to AMA dues paying members).
Can you expect the people that pay for land and improvement to let you fly just because you would like to? A lot of those people put sweat as well as money into their clubs.
I think there is something else along these lines that you apparently have not run into. Chartered clubs are not required to let other AMA members fly at their field... and not all do. Some have clubs that do not allow anyone other than club members to fly, period. Other clubs will let AMA member visitors fly. Some clubs are on public sites and anyone may fly, with or without insurance.
One club, within 5 miles of me, charges AMA visitors $10 a day to fly IF they have a club member with them. If not, the AMA visitor may not fly at all.
My point is that the AMA does not control all the actions of it's chartered clubs. The club makes it's own decisions on most matters. I will grant you that obeying the safety code is not one of the things a club can ignore.
AMA sanctioned events are just that. They are run by and for AMA members.
When you take into consideration that in 2001 only about $4 of your AMA dues went to purchase commercial insurance, where else could you go to get insurance?
Your wanting to fly, or compete is predicated on the people that have control of the site or event deferring to you. Your desire to participate without being a member is more than most of them are going to be willing to give. What is important to you and others (your term) may not be important to them, and the "them" is other flyers, not the AMA.
JR
03-02-2003, 12:55 AM
#20
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Omaha NE
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To AMA or Not to AMA
Mr. Flug,
I have a somewhat unique perspective on this for the following two reasons.
First of all I am an AMA contest director and run several large, successful contests each year. Second I just finished a two year stint as the president of a large (250 member) club that is NOT AMA sanctioned.
A couple of points to ponder
From a property owner or club's point of view, how are they to determine the validity and value of 'different' insurance companies. From your perspective any shmoe can show up at any field and say they have insurance with XYZ company. How is one to know what is valid and what is invalid.
I can tell you with a high level of certainty that that attitude is not only irresponsible but would certainly lead to the greatest levels of harm to our hobby.
While I don't agree with the AMA on a lot of issues, I do think that them as a single source of insurance is a very effective way to handle things.
The AMA states that their cost of insurance is under 5.00 per member. (in past years) I would tend to agree with that figure. The largest local club in this area is not an AMA club and is self-insuring. Their published cost of insurance per member is about the same.
Unfortunately all of the members that choose to be only members of the club and not the AMA can only fly at that field. Non club members must have an AMA membership in order to fly.
Each additional insurance carrier that is added adds to the level of complexity and opens up another opportunity for huge problems to crop up.
Looking at it another way, it appears that the cost of insurance is about the same, what about all of the other benefits that AMA membership provide?? I know that you seem to not appreciate them but some of us do.
I would make a suggestion, instead of trying to undermine a good thing, perhaps a better approach would be to get involved and try and work for change from inside.
Fragmenting will only cause problems and with all of the other issues we as aeromodelers are facing, why cause problems now?
I work at every meeting to convince the members of my club to become AMA members. We are now over 65% AMA members. I hope that one day we will be at 100%.
Finally, I doubt you will have much luck and success in either getting underwritten or in finding many followers - beyond a few grass roots band wagon jumpers.
I have a somewhat unique perspective on this for the following two reasons.
First of all I am an AMA contest director and run several large, successful contests each year. Second I just finished a two year stint as the president of a large (250 member) club that is NOT AMA sanctioned.
A couple of points to ponder
From a property owner or club's point of view, how are they to determine the validity and value of 'different' insurance companies. From your perspective any shmoe can show up at any field and say they have insurance with XYZ company. How is one to know what is valid and what is invalid.
I can tell you with a high level of certainty that that attitude is not only irresponsible but would certainly lead to the greatest levels of harm to our hobby.
While I don't agree with the AMA on a lot of issues, I do think that them as a single source of insurance is a very effective way to handle things.
The AMA states that their cost of insurance is under 5.00 per member. (in past years) I would tend to agree with that figure. The largest local club in this area is not an AMA club and is self-insuring. Their published cost of insurance per member is about the same.
Unfortunately all of the members that choose to be only members of the club and not the AMA can only fly at that field. Non club members must have an AMA membership in order to fly.
Each additional insurance carrier that is added adds to the level of complexity and opens up another opportunity for huge problems to crop up.
Looking at it another way, it appears that the cost of insurance is about the same, what about all of the other benefits that AMA membership provide?? I know that you seem to not appreciate them but some of us do.
I would make a suggestion, instead of trying to undermine a good thing, perhaps a better approach would be to get involved and try and work for change from inside.
Fragmenting will only cause problems and with all of the other issues we as aeromodelers are facing, why cause problems now?
I work at every meeting to convince the members of my club to become AMA members. We are now over 65% AMA members. I hope that one day we will be at 100%.
Finally, I doubt you will have much luck and success in either getting underwritten or in finding many followers - beyond a few grass roots band wagon jumpers.
03-03-2003, 03:09 AM
#21
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MD
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An AMA alternative ?
First of all I'd like to say I appreciate the constructive criticism and the time you guys took to respond.
When I look at the entire hobby it's much easier to see the benefits of the AMA. There's lots of good people doing alot of good for everyone else. Although I may not agree with how things are directed in some cases I can't help but see the cohesion as a whole. Cohesion of everyone...the events, the clubs, the vendors and those competing against us in other countries. Some things would be nice but...."Its a cruel world".
I wont be going out of my way to raise the interest of insurance companies. For it to work you'ld have to convince them of taking too much of a cut away from the AMA. I wouldn't want that. And I agree with Wardly...It probably would be a waiste of time.
I'll accept the part about barking up the wrong tree.
I guess the best advice would be to work from the inside. I haven't changed my mind about the magazine and would sure like to see someone consider making it an option. I just recieved four issues of MA (Because I finely called and asked them to send them) and I couldn't help but notice several letters to the editor.
They were complaining about similiar things...the magazine and insurance.
So, from an inside perspective, I'd be a little concerned about the growing number of people out there voicing there problems with the AMA. Consistently it seems to be centered on insurance and MA. All I can say to this is that you can have a happy family or a family that is secretly sick of it.
I've always believed that a little finess goes a long way. Outward integrity, letting people know why things are the way they are and being open with them makes a happy business family. Giving one side of the story, holding people by the balls and showing that you've monopolized the industry creates a bad picture. The AMA needs to work on there picture a bit. Presently it may be good on the inside but the outside needs a little work.
Only the officers know where they can flex but the two things that affect the majority are MA and insurance. These and the money that people pay for them will make the difference of how the AMA is percieved in the furture. My suggestion to the AMA would be to make sure their prices parrallel necessity. A jump in price equal to appx 20% of their expenses for 2001 isn't easy to swallow.
So...That's that. I've got to get my new plane together.. Picked up a new one today.
No hard feelings I hope. See ya guys around.
John
When I look at the entire hobby it's much easier to see the benefits of the AMA. There's lots of good people doing alot of good for everyone else. Although I may not agree with how things are directed in some cases I can't help but see the cohesion as a whole. Cohesion of everyone...the events, the clubs, the vendors and those competing against us in other countries. Some things would be nice but...."Its a cruel world".
I wont be going out of my way to raise the interest of insurance companies. For it to work you'ld have to convince them of taking too much of a cut away from the AMA. I wouldn't want that. And I agree with Wardly...It probably would be a waiste of time.
I'll accept the part about barking up the wrong tree.
I guess the best advice would be to work from the inside. I haven't changed my mind about the magazine and would sure like to see someone consider making it an option. I just recieved four issues of MA (Because I finely called and asked them to send them) and I couldn't help but notice several letters to the editor.
They were complaining about similiar things...the magazine and insurance.
So, from an inside perspective, I'd be a little concerned about the growing number of people out there voicing there problems with the AMA. Consistently it seems to be centered on insurance and MA. All I can say to this is that you can have a happy family or a family that is secretly sick of it.
I've always believed that a little finess goes a long way. Outward integrity, letting people know why things are the way they are and being open with them makes a happy business family. Giving one side of the story, holding people by the balls and showing that you've monopolized the industry creates a bad picture. The AMA needs to work on there picture a bit. Presently it may be good on the inside but the outside needs a little work.
Only the officers know where they can flex but the two things that affect the majority are MA and insurance. These and the money that people pay for them will make the difference of how the AMA is percieved in the furture. My suggestion to the AMA would be to make sure their prices parrallel necessity. A jump in price equal to appx 20% of their expenses for 2001 isn't easy to swallow.
So...That's that. I've got to get my new plane together.. Picked up a new one today.
No hard feelings I hope. See ya guys around.
John
03-03-2003, 03:37 AM
#22
An AMA alternative ?
John Say:>>>>>>>>>>>
"So, from an inside perspective, I'd be a little concerned about the growing number of people out there voicing there problems with the AMA. Consistently it seems to be centered on insurance and MA. All I can say to this is that you can have a happy family or a family that is secretly sick of it.
"So, from an inside perspective, I'd be a little concerned about the growing number of people out there voicing there problems with the AMA. Consistently it seems to be centered on insurance and MA. All I can say to this is that you can have a happy family or a family that is secretly sick of it.
03-03-2003, 12:52 PM
#23
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MD
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An AMA alternative ?
They can ignore it...knowing of the voting weakness. Thats exactly what the latter part of my comment talked about. Flaunting the weakness doesn't help the real sitution.
Most likely those that don't vote are the ones that have the problems. Too bad for them. They'll pay their $58.00 and continue to complain now and then. There's room for improvement in any organization. Is asking the AMA to do it without having it forced through votes too much? I wouldn't waste the time to talk about it if I wasn't aware of those viewing this thread.
I may have misinterpreted your comment but it sounds like your saying that the AMA can continue to ignore what it knows is going on. As long as no direct pain is felt among its officers.
If that's how they want to operate, you're right. They can probably get away with it.
Most likely those that don't vote are the ones that have the problems. Too bad for them. They'll pay their $58.00 and continue to complain now and then. There's room for improvement in any organization. Is asking the AMA to do it without having it forced through votes too much? I wouldn't waste the time to talk about it if I wasn't aware of those viewing this thread.
I may have misinterpreted your comment but it sounds like your saying that the AMA can continue to ignore what it knows is going on. As long as no direct pain is felt among its officers.
If that's how they want to operate, you're right. They can probably get away with it.
03-03-2003, 01:44 PM
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Olcott, NY
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An AMA alternative ?
I'm new this whole thing but it appears to me that the voting thing is simply a matter of members asking, "what's in it for me".
I just joined the AMA, mainly because I was told that I had to, to be covered to fly on the local flying field. Ok, viewing things from a beginner's perspective, I have secondary insurance, which is required, a magazine, which I haven't received yet, but apparently, not much else as far as receiving what I need most at the moment, which is flight instruction. What I'm saying is that beginners most likely couldn't care less about anything else so many benefits of joining AMA until we learn how to fly.
In investigating the sport and AMA before I decided to join, I discovered that there are opposite persrpectives, that of those who know how to fly, those wish to learn and those on the profit making end. It appears that those who know how to fly are for the most part quite satisfied with the status quo, but the other two enities seem to be getting the short end of the stick. No one offers any guarantees for the hobby shop owner or his newest customer, the beginner. Thing is, according to the veteran flier, he cannot be expected to be at the newcomer's beck and call to teach for free, but at the same time he has too much integrity among other legal road blocks, cannot be paid to teach. Where does that leave the beginner and the hobby shop owner?
The more I investigate this, the more it puzzles me, as no one seems to have any solutions, to a problem, that few, if any even admits to there being a problem in the first place. To me, this appears to be the root of all the problems I have read about in my very short involvement in the sport.
So, back to the beginning; perhaps the 130,000 or so who didn't vote, apparently didn't think that there was anything in it for them one way or the other.
nascarjoe
I just joined the AMA, mainly because I was told that I had to, to be covered to fly on the local flying field. Ok, viewing things from a beginner's perspective, I have secondary insurance, which is required, a magazine, which I haven't received yet, but apparently, not much else as far as receiving what I need most at the moment, which is flight instruction. What I'm saying is that beginners most likely couldn't care less about anything else so many benefits of joining AMA until we learn how to fly.
In investigating the sport and AMA before I decided to join, I discovered that there are opposite persrpectives, that of those who know how to fly, those wish to learn and those on the profit making end. It appears that those who know how to fly are for the most part quite satisfied with the status quo, but the other two enities seem to be getting the short end of the stick. No one offers any guarantees for the hobby shop owner or his newest customer, the beginner. Thing is, according to the veteran flier, he cannot be expected to be at the newcomer's beck and call to teach for free, but at the same time he has too much integrity among other legal road blocks, cannot be paid to teach. Where does that leave the beginner and the hobby shop owner?
The more I investigate this, the more it puzzles me, as no one seems to have any solutions, to a problem, that few, if any even admits to there being a problem in the first place. To me, this appears to be the root of all the problems I have read about in my very short involvement in the sport.
So, back to the beginning; perhaps the 130,000 or so who didn't vote, apparently didn't think that there was anything in it for them one way or the other.
nascarjoe
03-03-2003, 03:01 PM
#25
An AMA alternative ?
Flug said: >>>"I may have misinterpreted your comment but it sounds like your saying that the AMA can continue to ignore what it knows is going on. As long as no direct pain is felt among its officers.
If that's how they want to operate, you're right. They can probably get away with it."
>>>>>>>"The more I investigate this, the more it puzzles me, as no one seems to have any solutions, to a problem, that few, if any even admits to there being a problem in the first place. To me, this appears to be the root of all the problems I have read about in my very short involvement in the sport.
So, back to the beginning; perhaps the 130,000 or so who didn't vote, apparently didn't think that there was anything in it for them one way or the other."
If that's how they want to operate, you're right. They can probably get away with it."
>>>>>>>"The more I investigate this, the more it puzzles me, as no one seems to have any solutions, to a problem, that few, if any even admits to there being a problem in the first place. To me, this appears to be the root of all the problems I have read about in my very short involvement in the sport.
So, back to the beginning; perhaps the 130,000 or so who didn't vote, apparently didn't think that there was anything in it for them one way or the other."