Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
05-30-2007, 01:14 PM
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Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
From the AMA minutes:
MOTION IX: Moved by D. Mathewson (II), seconded by T. Stillman (V) to accept the recommendation of the Insurance Committee to approach our insurance company to modify language in the Westchester General Liability Policy to provide primary general liability protection to officers of AMA Chartered Clubs in good standing for vicarious liability for the actions of others.
*Note: This additional coverage is for the five officers listed on the club officer sheet, i.e. President, Vice President, Secretary, Treasurer and Safety Officer (coordinator), this is assuming that one of the above officers is also named as the contact person for that club.
MOTION passed: 12-Y; 1-Abstention (NAA)
Most states already have laws protecting the "officers" for non- profit corporations similar to this:
7231.5. (a) Except as provided in Section 7233 or 7236, there is no
monetary liability on the part of, and no cause of action for
damages shall arise against, any volunteer director or volunteer
executive officer of a nonprofit corporation subject to this part
based upon any alleged failure to discharge the person's duties as a
director or officer if the duties are performed in a manner that
meets all of the following criteria:
(1) The duties are performed in good faith.
(2) The duties are performed in a manner such director or officer
believes to be in the best interests of the corporation.
(3) The duties are performed with such care, including reasonable
inquiry, as an ordinarily prudent person in a like position would use
under similar circumstances.
(b) "Volunteer" means the rendering of services without
compensation. "Compensation" means remuneration whether by way of
salary, fee, or other consideration for services rendered. However,
the payment of per diem, mileage, or other reimbursement expenses to
a director or executive officer does not affect that person's status
as a volunteer within the meaning of this section.
(c) "Executive officer" means the president, vice president,
secretary, or treasurer of a corporation or other individual serving
in like capacity who assists in establishing the policy of the
corporation.
Nothing is going to protect club officers found to be operating in "bad faith" so why put good money
is a additional insurance policy that will do no good ?
If they are found not to be operating things "in good faith"
no insurance policy is going to cover them.So why is the AMA wasting money on this???
From the AMA minutes:
MOTION IX: Moved by D. Mathewson (II), seconded by T. Stillman (V) to accept the recommendation of the Insurance Committee to approach our insurance company to modify language in the Westchester General Liability Policy to provide primary general liability protection to officers of AMA Chartered Clubs in good standing for vicarious liability for the actions of others.
*Note: This additional coverage is for the five officers listed on the club officer sheet, i.e. President, Vice President, Secretary, Treasurer and Safety Officer (coordinator), this is assuming that one of the above officers is also named as the contact person for that club.
MOTION passed: 12-Y; 1-Abstention (NAA)
Most states already have laws protecting the "officers" for non- profit corporations similar to this:
7231.5. (a) Except as provided in Section 7233 or 7236, there is no
monetary liability on the part of, and no cause of action for
damages shall arise against, any volunteer director or volunteer
executive officer of a nonprofit corporation subject to this part
based upon any alleged failure to discharge the person's duties as a
director or officer if the duties are performed in a manner that
meets all of the following criteria:
(1) The duties are performed in good faith.
(2) The duties are performed in a manner such director or officer
believes to be in the best interests of the corporation.
(3) The duties are performed with such care, including reasonable
inquiry, as an ordinarily prudent person in a like position would use
under similar circumstances.
(b) "Volunteer" means the rendering of services without
compensation. "Compensation" means remuneration whether by way of
salary, fee, or other consideration for services rendered. However,
the payment of per diem, mileage, or other reimbursement expenses to
a director or executive officer does not affect that person's status
as a volunteer within the meaning of this section.
(c) "Executive officer" means the president, vice president,
secretary, or treasurer of a corporation or other individual serving
in like capacity who assists in establishing the policy of the
corporation.
Nothing is going to protect club officers found to be operating in "bad faith" so why put good money
is a additional insurance policy that will do no good ?
If they are found not to be operating things "in good faith"
no insurance policy is going to cover them.So why is the AMA wasting money on this???
05-30-2007, 02:15 PM
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RE: Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
Obviously did not protect certain club members from being sued by certain posters.............
SO I would say the more protection from one track minded sue happy wack-jobs the better.
Though there are laws in place, that is not a guarantee of protection, and any insurance that can be provide for officers, that will make it easier or less aprehensive to become a club officer the better.
I am a club officer and I like my money,my house, etc........
SO I would say the more protection from one track minded sue happy wack-jobs the better.
Though there are laws in place, that is not a guarantee of protection, and any insurance that can be provide for officers, that will make it easier or less aprehensive to become a club officer the better.
I am a club officer and I like my money,my house, etc........
05-30-2007, 03:27 PM
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RE: Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
I think if you read that carefully you will see that the extended liability is "for the actions of others". This in no way absolves these officers of their own actions. We are all accountable in some ways for our actions, this protects club officers from idiots who do things woth airplanes that aught not be done and injure or kill someone.
curtis
curtis
05-30-2007, 04:12 PM
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RE: Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
Well, true the actions of an individual is not covered, but the actions of a board are... There is a difference. I am indemnified from any legal action to which I am named as an officer of the club, where as, I would not be covered If I am named as an individual, or my actions did not fit within my duties as an office holder. To put a finer point on it...if a member is tossed from the club and sues, I am covered, if I forcebly remove and injure a person from the field, which is prohibited by law and by-laws I am not covered.
The action to which I am or am not covered is dependant on under what premise I was acting, or with what authority I was acting within.
The action to which I am or am not covered is dependant on under what premise I was acting, or with what authority I was acting within.
05-30-2007, 04:32 PM
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RE: Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
John Casey;
In a quest to better protect the CHARTER CLUB officers and therefore motivate more individuals to accept such positions in a "sue-everyone - for - everything & anything - society I think NOT.
Remember that not ALL clubs are Non-Profit Corporations. OTOH if AMA is going to take all Charter Clubs under the Mother's Apron as part of the NFP then all the officers become volunteers for the NFP and therefore enjoy the tax beneies of such, then maybe some real goodies are in the works.
Lots of potential just over the horizon.
Ever thought of joining with another club and becoming an AMA Chapter? A Chapter is a part of the whole. I still believe the officers could then take volunteer tax status deductions. Dave B says he doesn't think so. My club doesn't have the cajones (sp.) to try it with someone.
Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
Remember that not ALL clubs are Non-Profit Corporations. OTOH if AMA is going to take all Charter Clubs under the Mother's Apron as part of the NFP then all the officers become volunteers for the NFP and therefore enjoy the tax beneies of such, then maybe some real goodies are in the works.
Lots of potential just over the horizon.Ever thought of joining with another club and becoming an AMA Chapter? A Chapter is a part of the whole. I still believe the officers could then take volunteer tax status deductions. Dave B says he doesn't think so. My club doesn't have the cajones (sp.) to try it with someone.
05-31-2007, 10:32 AM
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RE: Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
ORIGINAL: John Casey
Most states already have laws protecting the "officers" for non- profit corporations similar to this:
Most states already have laws protecting the "officers" for non- profit corporations similar to this:
This of course, ASSumes that all clubs are incorporated as non-profit corporations...
05-31-2007, 05:25 PM
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RE: Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
ORIGINAL: John Casey
Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
From the AMA minutes:
MOTION IX: Moved by D. Mathewson (II), seconded by T. Stillman (V) to accept the recommendation of the Insurance Committee to approach our insurance company to modify language in the Westchester General Liability Policy to provide primary general liability protection to officers of AMA Chartered Clubs in good standing for vicarious liability for the actions of others.
*Note: This additional coverage is for the five officers listed on the club officer sheet, i.e. President, Vice President, Secretary, Treasurer and Safety Officer (coordinator), this is assuming that one of the above officers is also named as the contact person for that club.
MOTION passed: 12-Y; 1-Abstention (NAA)
Most states already have laws protecting the "officers" for non- profit corporations similar to this:
7231.5. (a) Except as provided in Section 7233 or 7236, there is no
monetary liability on the part of, and no cause of action for
damages shall arise against, any volunteer director or volunteer
executive officer of a nonprofit corporation subject to this part
based upon any alleged failure to discharge the person's duties as a
director or officer if the duties are performed in a manner that
meets all of the following criteria:
(1) The duties are performed in good faith.
(2) The duties are performed in a manner such director or officer
believes to be in the best interests of the corporation.
(3) The duties are performed with such care, including reasonable
inquiry, as an ordinarily prudent person in a like position would use
under similar circumstances.
(b) "Volunteer" means the rendering of services without
compensation. "Compensation" means remuneration whether by way of
salary, fee, or other consideration for services rendered. However,
the payment of per diem, mileage, or other reimbursement expenses to
a director or executive officer does not affect that person's status
as a volunteer within the meaning of this section.
(c) "Executive officer" means the president, vice president,
secretary, or treasurer of a corporation or other individual serving
in like capacity who assists in establishing the policy of the
corporation.
Nothing is going to protect club officers found to be operating in "bad faith" so why put good money
is a additional insurance policy that will do no good ?
If they are found not to be operating things "in good faith"
no insurance policy is going to cover them.So why is the AMA wasting money on this???
Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
From the AMA minutes:
MOTION IX: Moved by D. Mathewson (II), seconded by T. Stillman (V) to accept the recommendation of the Insurance Committee to approach our insurance company to modify language in the Westchester General Liability Policy to provide primary general liability protection to officers of AMA Chartered Clubs in good standing for vicarious liability for the actions of others.
*Note: This additional coverage is for the five officers listed on the club officer sheet, i.e. President, Vice President, Secretary, Treasurer and Safety Officer (coordinator), this is assuming that one of the above officers is also named as the contact person for that club.
MOTION passed: 12-Y; 1-Abstention (NAA)
Most states already have laws protecting the "officers" for non- profit corporations similar to this:
7231.5. (a) Except as provided in Section 7233 or 7236, there is no
monetary liability on the part of, and no cause of action for
damages shall arise against, any volunteer director or volunteer
executive officer of a nonprofit corporation subject to this part
based upon any alleged failure to discharge the person's duties as a
director or officer if the duties are performed in a manner that
meets all of the following criteria:
(1) The duties are performed in good faith.
(2) The duties are performed in a manner such director or officer
believes to be in the best interests of the corporation.
(3) The duties are performed with such care, including reasonable
inquiry, as an ordinarily prudent person in a like position would use
under similar circumstances.
(b) "Volunteer" means the rendering of services without
compensation. "Compensation" means remuneration whether by way of
salary, fee, or other consideration for services rendered. However,
the payment of per diem, mileage, or other reimbursement expenses to
a director or executive officer does not affect that person's status
as a volunteer within the meaning of this section.
(c) "Executive officer" means the president, vice president,
secretary, or treasurer of a corporation or other individual serving
in like capacity who assists in establishing the policy of the
corporation.
Nothing is going to protect club officers found to be operating in "bad faith" so why put good money
is a additional insurance policy that will do no good ?
If they are found not to be operating things "in good faith"
no insurance policy is going to cover them.So why is the AMA wasting money on this???
I think this policy is a good idea so that folks who donate their time won't have to wory about suit happy folks. If I wanted to donate my time and energy(and often times money) to help others enjoy a hobby, I would like to be wory free of being sued and losing my life and not just my hobby. In my opinion, the AMA does not need a "bad faith" policy as they leave that side up to the club members who vote for and against these officials. Now, these human beings make mistakes too. I'll freely admit that, but it IS their time and if they aren't up to the job, I trust my fellow RC pilots will band together to take the appropiate action.
50%
06-04-2007, 08:08 AM
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RE: Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
sad as it is to say, but this policy is nothing more than a Pre-nuptual agreement. hink about it... When one first gets married everyone is happy and everything is great, but a disgeruntled partner and BLAM!!!!!!!!! you lose it all. If there was a prenuptual agreement there would be a limit to what could be gained if anything. Nothing wrong with this policy... protect those who want to volunteer.
06-04-2007, 09:24 AM
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RE: Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
Who said the AMA was even going to pay more for this policy change? You can negotiate with the insurance man just like you can negotiate with magazine ad prices, except MA's. If there was going to be a price increase there would have to be another motion I assume. The motion is only to ask the insurance company to reword it.
06-05-2007, 03:16 PM
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RE: Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
I have found the following not to be true:
"""In my opinion, the AMA does not need a "bad faith" policy as they leave that side up to the club members who vote for and against these officials. Now, these human beings make mistakes too. I'll freely admit that, but it IS their time and if they aren't up to the job, I trust my fellow RC pilots will band together to take the appropiate action.""""
My comments :
This is a hobby and my experience in trying to fight a small bunch
of guys that are willing to use fear, intimidation, physical threats, shooting down of aircraft..etc to keep
and expand thier "power"
and if your side is "not willing to lower" themselves to that level beacuse this is a HOBBY.... you will lose.
In any battle of power all you have to do is what the other guy won't.
Voting made no difference, they have control of the club's checkbook and newsletter you have nothing.
And like other countries under the control of the "few" (North korea) the people give up
and don't bother to come and vote.
I watched the elections go from over 100 down to 25.... And please don't come back with...."things must be running
ok"crap.. thats why they are not showing up at elections anymore. Its a hobby its not supposed to
A gang war which is what I saw happen. So the Idea the modelers will stand up to do whats right is BS,
they won't. Not when it comes down to having your planes shot down, or cars keyed while your up flying.
"""In my opinion, the AMA does not need a "bad faith" policy as they leave that side up to the club members who vote for and against these officials. Now, these human beings make mistakes too. I'll freely admit that, but it IS their time and if they aren't up to the job, I trust my fellow RC pilots will band together to take the appropiate action.""""
My comments :
This is a hobby and my experience in trying to fight a small bunch
of guys that are willing to use fear, intimidation, physical threats, shooting down of aircraft..etc to keep
and expand thier "power"
and if your side is "not willing to lower" themselves to that level beacuse this is a HOBBY.... you will lose.
In any battle of power all you have to do is what the other guy won't.
Voting made no difference, they have control of the club's checkbook and newsletter you have nothing.
And like other countries under the control of the "few" (North korea) the people give up
and don't bother to come and vote.
I watched the elections go from over 100 down to 25.... And please don't come back with...."things must be running
ok"crap.. thats why they are not showing up at elections anymore. Its a hobby its not supposed to
A gang war which is what I saw happen. So the Idea the modelers will stand up to do whats right is BS,
they won't. Not when it comes down to having your planes shot down, or cars keyed while your up flying.
06-06-2007, 03:44 PM
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RE: Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
Speaking as the president of two clubs, I welcome getting something for volunteering to be an officer when nobody else will. One club even picks up the secretary's AMA dues to entice someone to take that thankless job. Thanks AMA.
06-08-2007, 03:24 PM
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RE: Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
Thats exactly why this law was created :
to
....protect people administering organizations in good faith.
Without them they might not exist.
I served on the board of my club as well , and am safety officer in another,
I feel no pressure of "liability" on my shoulders knowing this law exists for my protection.
So if the protection already exists why spend more AMA $$$ to get the same protection.?
If the officers are found to be acting "in good faith" their covered, if not they are in big trouble,
and no "extra" insurance is going to save them.
(((("I trust my fellow RC pilots will band together to take the appropiate action."))))
I found this to be true also, but only when everyone gets to hear both sides of a story.
Remember you don't have control of your newsletter, club membership list, phone numbers
and addresses to get the word out, somebody else does. "access denied".....
And this scenario goes for any club. Internal Lawsuit situations can usually be headed off
by the cooler heads of the membership as a whole by simply voting on the issue.
to
....protect people administering organizations in good faith.
Without them they might not exist.
I served on the board of my club as well , and am safety officer in another,
I feel no pressure of "liability" on my shoulders knowing this law exists for my protection.
So if the protection already exists why spend more AMA $$$ to get the same protection.?
If the officers are found to be acting "in good faith" their covered, if not they are in big trouble,
and no "extra" insurance is going to save them.
(((("I trust my fellow RC pilots will band together to take the appropiate action."))))
I found this to be true also, but only when everyone gets to hear both sides of a story.
Remember you don't have control of your newsletter, club membership list, phone numbers
and addresses to get the word out, somebody else does. "access denied".....
And this scenario goes for any club. Internal Lawsuit situations can usually be headed off
by the cooler heads of the membership as a whole by simply voting on the issue.
06-08-2007, 04:13 PM
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RE: Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
Starting one is no problem
getting out of it is another problem
Ohh
left upper new thread
getting out of it is another problemOhh
left upper new thread
06-08-2007, 04:28 PM
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RE: Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
Looks like you hit the wrong place this is the well tear them down and rebuild AMA . In Order to what do you do when all else failes
06-08-2007, 04:34 PM
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RE: Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
Well i thaught about that but than i fugered i should go for broke and get more power???
06-08-2007, 05:40 PM
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RE: Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
John,
Maybe you could start another thread titled "What's an AMA club to do when they remove a member and that member won't go away peacefully".
I've stayed away for quite awhile from your posts and really wish that the sideways attacks of the club would stop, please.
Jimmy Skids
Maybe you could start another thread titled "What's an AMA club to do when they remove a member and that member won't go away peacefully".
I've stayed away for quite awhile from your posts and really wish that the sideways attacks of the club would stop, please.
Jimmy Skids
06-09-2007, 08:17 AM
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RE: Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
Intereseting, jon, that you want less insurance and are speaking of internal lawsuits, when you have stated you sued your last club!!!
This extra liability policy is to ensure that people acting in good faith are protected from, well, YOU!!
This extra liability policy is to ensure that people acting in good faith are protected from, well, YOU!!
06-09-2007, 12:36 PM
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RE: Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
Ok Prez,
Your personalizing the discussion,(not my fault again)please stick to the issues.
the issue is "wasting money on something thats already covered by law, why do it?
Your personalizing the discussion,(not my fault again)please stick to the issues.
the issue is "wasting money on something thats already covered by law, why do it?
06-09-2007, 12:52 PM
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RE: Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
Most states already have laws protecting the "officers" for non- profit corporations similar to this
Since most states have the laws and some clubs are NFP's, then I'm sure the insurance company will take that into consideration if they are going to charge the AMA a single penny more then they currently are now. Who said anywhere that the AMA was going to pay for this additional coverage anyway? This was only a motion to ask the insurance company for the word change.
Looks like Texas is going to pass a bill to protect RC fliers that fly at designated sites. You think after it passes that they will not longer want or need AMA chartered clubs in Texas? Or will Texans just be happy that they have the redundancy in place. Perhaps the AMA could negotiate their rates down just for the added protection they will receive in Texas alone if it passes, seems to be a lot of AMA members there.
Laws are written to protect but only to serve as guidelines, never to be bullet proof, that's what the judges are for. However trial lawyers evolved to find loopholes, cracks and missing parts in all laws. And since trial lawyers wear nice suits, drive fancy cars and live in lavish homes, a great portion of the time they win even when the law is against them. More is better, especially when it could be free. I think your jumping the gun here John.
06-11-2007, 02:22 PM
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RE: Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
I have to point out... its "not free". It's being paid with Our AMA dues monies,
which might be better used helping to push the bills like the one in Texas.
Protecting landowners allowing the use of their land for RC.
We need more "secured sites" under proper direction.
which might be better used helping to push the bills like the one in Texas.
Protecting landowners allowing the use of their land for RC.
We need more "secured sites" under proper direction.
06-12-2007, 09:38 AM
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RE: Is the AMA wasting $$$ on liability insurance for chartered club officers?
ORIGINAL: John Casey
Thats exactly why this law was created :
to
....protect people administering organizations in good faith.
Without them they might not exist.
I served on the board of my club as well , and am safety officer in another,
I feel no pressure of "liability" on my shoulders knowing this law exists for my protection.
So if the protection already exists why spend more AMA $$$ to get the same protection.?
Thats exactly why this law was created :
to
....protect people administering organizations in good faith.
Without them they might not exist.
I served on the board of my club as well , and am safety officer in another,
I feel no pressure of "liability" on my shoulders knowing this law exists for my protection.
So if the protection already exists why spend more AMA $$$ to get the same protection.?
Strange decisions can come from a jury. Heck, I once heard of some dumbass driving with a hot coffee, spilling it in their crotch, and suing McDonalds for large sums of money...and winning the suit.
There is another case where some moron tried to use a lawnmower to trim his hedges by picking it up around the bottom. The guy lost all his fingers but got lots of money...and now if take my hand of my mower it stops. [:@]
Strange decisions come from juries...I'll take the extra insurance thank you.