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Roberts rules of order?????

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Old 06-23-2007, 02:04 PM
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John Casey
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Default Roberts rules of order?????

So why is it important to have Roberts rules of order in your clubs bylaws?

the AMA recommended bylaws PDF file has it in there....

Whats the purpose of having them?

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Old 06-23-2007, 03:52 PM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????


ORIGINAL: John Casey

So why is it important to have Roberts rules of order in your clubs bylaws?

the AMA recommended bylaws PDF file has it in there....

Whats the purpose of having them?

It may be to keep some people under control that are bent on disrupting the club meetings.
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Old 06-23-2007, 06:02 PM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????

Robert's rules of Order are WAY more in depth and explain and spell out what can and cannot be done in parliamentary procedure. For example if they are in place, the chairman has the right not to call upon someone to speak. A person cannot speak unless recoginized by the chair.
for example, if John was inmy club and wanted to speak he couldn't unless he was recognized. The only case where John could then speak is either "a point of order". The structure is GREAT and way out weighs what little is in the AMA PDF. Without Robert's rules youi have ambiguity and arguments withit you have peace and quiet and a black and white reference as to how,why and when things can be done.
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Old 06-23-2007, 07:24 PM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????

You got that right SSRCCPREZ. Robert's Rules of Order kick in when common courtesy starts to falter.

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Old 06-25-2007, 11:33 AM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????


ORIGINAL: John Casey

So why is it important to have Roberts rules of order in your clubs bylaws?

the AMA recommended bylaws PDF file has it in there....

Whats the purpose of having them?

Henry Martyn Robert put the basic rules together and published them in February of 1876.

It was a reduction of parlimentary procedures adapted to allow meetings that needed to cover multiple agendas to work without dropping into complete chaos.

If used according to the book dissenting as well a popular agendas can be heard in an orderly and timely manner without constant interruption by the opposing parties.

It also stops a person or a small group from ram rodding something through without the consent of the 51% majority.

Roberts works well but is usually corrupted or bypassed if the person at the head of the meeting is not familiar with the rules or does not have the will to enforce them.
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Old 06-26-2007, 02:38 PM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????

'Roberts works well but is usually CORRUPTED OR BY PASSED if the person at the head of the meeting
is not familiar with the rules or does not have the will to enforce them."-----gremlin

You hit the nail right on the head there Gremlin, I would also add ,
and/or ignoring roberts rules of order altogether.

Now what about "the opposition?

So how do we know or find out if..."the Opposition" is:
The "true majority"..... in an issue of contention....... or the "disruptive"minority.? as red would say...

I guess that would occur after a vote is taken.... to find out who .....the true majority is.

Disruptive members:????

example: A supposedly "disruptive..member" motions to paint both ends of the runway white, the motion is
seconded, discussed,then voted on, and his motion passes, the club has voted to paint the ends of the runway white.
(visiblility reasons)
Are not the "unruly disruptive members" those who Opposed him(and lost)and were shown to be...... the minority?
If this members motions are supported by majority vote repeatedly,
are not the "constantly opposing members".......really the disruptive ones?

If a member raises his hand and the Chair refuses to
reconize him....... is not the chair violating his rights as a club member to be heard?

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Old 06-26-2007, 05:04 PM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????

I am thrilled to be in a club that has members that realize that RC is a hobby and not a commitment. We raise enough money to pay our bills, with a splash left over for the slush fund, have fun flys and scale contest's, teach the Boy Scout's how to fly and in general have a great time enjoying each other's freindship. Our meetings are not run in accordabnce with Robert's Rules, but as adults we take care of our bussiness and move into show and tell. Our meeting'a are fun and productive. In my mind, that's what being a club member and enjoying the hobby is all about. Good Luck, Dave
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Old 06-26-2007, 05:15 PM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????


ORIGINAL: John Casey

'Roberts works well but is usually CORRUPTED OR BY PASSED if the person at the head of the meeting
is not familiar with the rules or does not have the will to enforce them."-----gremlin

You hit the nail right on the head there Gremlin, I would also add ,
and/or ignoring roberts rules of order altogether.

Now what about "the opposition?

So how do we know or find out if..."the Opposition" is:
The "true majority"..... in an issue of contention....... or the "disruptive"minority.? as red would say...

I guess that would occur after a vote is taken.... to find out who .....the true majority is.

Disruptive members:????

example: A supposedly "disruptive..member" motions to paint both ends of the runway white, the motion is
seconded, discussed,then voted on, and his motion passes, the club has voted to paint the ends of the runway white.
(visiblility reasons)
Are not the "unruly disruptive members" those who Opposed him(and lost)and were shown to be...... the minority?
If this members motions are supported by majority vote repeatedly,
are not the "constantly opposing members".......really the disruptive ones?

If a member raises his hand and the Chair refuses to
reconize him....... is not the chair violating his rights as a club member to be heard?

No, the chairman does not have to recognize a member to speak, and there is no violation. A member can only overrule the chairman with a point of order or a point of information, other than that you can only speak when recognized by the chair.
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Old 06-26-2007, 05:22 PM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????

Also john, a member who knows Robert's rules can rule the meeting, if they know the rules.....A chairman who knows the rules can rule the meeting if he knows the rules. If both the member and the chairman know the rules the only thing that can happen is a civil meeting that is forced to be kept on track and personal issues are forced to be removed.
I have a few disruptive members in our club and Robert's rules keep them in check nicely. Remember if a motion is made and seconded and approved it is them the requirement of the board to fulfill the will of the meeting..if they do not they are in violation of a by-law if the by-laws are in place. If not then, well, youre screwed and you can vote them out or call a vote of no confidence, which requires a second to thwe motion and a 3/4 majority vote. But here is the problem, if youre by laws do not spell out the difference between a 3/4 majority of the membership vs. a 3/4 majority of the meeting you might be done for right from the start. Our by-laws spell this out nicely regarding a quorum and 3/4 majority vote of the meeting on certain by-law and procedural changes.

The by-laws will over rule Robert's rules, but robert's rules will always pick up where the by-laws leave off. Get a copy and study it, and you may become a force to be reckoned with rather than a mere fly in the ointment.
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Old 06-26-2007, 08:03 PM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????

How do I get a copy of roberts rules ASAP. Thanks Andy Runey President of Low Country Fliers in South Carolina.
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Old 06-26-2007, 08:10 PM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????

Ditto and AMEN! [sm=thumbs_up.gif]
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Old 06-26-2007, 08:22 PM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????

http://www.rulesonline.com/
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Old 06-26-2007, 09:23 PM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????

Hi All,
I bought a version at a bookstore and I use it to reference during our meetings. I am the president and also needed to learn Robert's rules of order when I was on my town's finance committee. Most towns use Parliamentary procedure for their town meetings as well.
I think you will find these to be VERY helpful, but I may suggest that you make a motion to adopt Robert's rules into your club for running a meeting to make it more difficult for a run a way executive board to ignore them.
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Old 06-27-2007, 10:18 AM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????


ORIGINAL: SSRCCPREZ

Hi All,
I bought a version at a bookstore and I use it to reference during our meetings. I am the president and also needed to learn Robert's rules of order when I was on my town's finance committee. Most towns use Parliamentary procedure for their town meetings as well.
I think you will find these to be VERY helpful, but I may suggest that you make a motion to adopt Robert's rules into your club for running a meeting to make it more difficult for a run a way executive board to ignore them.
We had a run away exec board a few years back that exploited the lack of Robert's Rules in our by laws to run a vendetta against one of the founding club members and attempt to run off anyone who questioned their decisions. Ultimately I called for a special election and had to send ballots with return postage on them to the membership in order to vote these people out. The exec board found out that lack of Robert's rules was a two edged sword.
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Old 06-27-2007, 12:12 PM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????

Thats Great gremlin, sounds really familar.....at least the "process worked"
.......in your club to ........vote out your exec board, without having to wait "till THE next election"
Its great to see the process can work when voting is allowed to happen.

The clubs bylaws already has roberts rules of order listed:

"All meetings will be run buy Roberts rules of order"


Its still sounds to me that if the Chair..... is deliberately....
not allowing.... the member to be heard, his membership rights are being violated and
the chair is abusing his authority as" his intention" in doing so is to keep the member (possible opposition)
from being heard.



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Old 06-27-2007, 01:59 PM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????

That is where Robert's rules ccome into play. A motion of order or "point of order" takes precendance and can interrupt speech and must be addressed. JOhn I caution you to have the book handy and stick to the chapter and verse to be your argument.
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Old 06-27-2007, 02:48 PM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????

Changing officers is an entirely different matter than railing against the committe because they won't listen to or respond in a positive manner to your wants or position.
We had a group that felt that they were above the entire membership not just against a few.

However, as mentioned by SCCPREZ you can call for and invoke the point of rule that allows you to state your position.
First you must get the holder of the meeting to agree that Robert's Rules are in effect per your bylaws. After that, call for the specific point that allows you the floor. Present the short form of your position and then sit down. If the others do not back your position in a positive manner there is nothing that Robert's can do for you.
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Old 06-27-2007, 03:28 PM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????

John Casey,

Are you having problems in your current club?

Are the Woodland/Davis Aeromodelers now trying to "railroad" you?

If not, then just where is this going?

I personally am starting to smell the stench of rotting horse flesh....yet again.

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Old 06-27-2007, 04:28 PM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????

The most important thing to remember,John, is this is not the weapon for revenge or to disrupt the meting, but a tool to level the playing field and to conduct a meeting in a well thought out manner that is forward moving and allows for all parties interests to be protected. Ultimately, the chairma rules. There are very very very few motions that are not debateable or able to be overruled or ruled out of order by the chairman. also, remember the chairman can, when challenged make the final ruling. Only at the will of the chairman can he have an objection or question of order be determined by the membership. In otherwords if you question the chairman's ruling on an issue, he can make a final determination or ask the membership for said determination. He does not have to ask the membership and after he has mad a determination it is final. This is where knowing the rules and having them handy makes the difference. Without them handy you are tilting at windmills, and when your knowledge of the rules is not in depth or thorough you will then look like the village idiot instead of the town's mayor.

Believe me, I have had several people come at me with half the knowledge neccessary and no concrete proof of a rules violation I may have made. I then quote chapter and verse where I am correct, then pull out my book and have them look it up to bolster my argument. I know Robert's rules. I use them judiciousley and fairly. But do not bring a spit ball to a cannon fight.
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Old 06-28-2007, 12:35 PM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????

I thank you for your insight on the rules and thier intended use vs being used as a weapon in a meeting.
I have found that simply "taking the vote" solves these problems as
the members find out who's really in the minority pretty quickly.(Troublemakers unmasked)

Problems really only start occuring when a vote of the membership is attempted to be
denied. Then the problems just fester and get bigger.

For Dave..........Our meeting's for the most part also consist mainly of
airplane talk and lots of fun, until a small group decided they were "above the rest of the entire membership"
and decided to turn the place into a country club for only them, disallowing anything "they "did not approve.

However if "managment" disrespects and refuses to follow even the basic of roberts rules can they really work?

I have a question that gremlin's post brought up....

" We had a group that felt that they were above the entire membership"..gremlin

What if that group is your exec board?
Your members were able to vote them out using a speical election...

What if the Exec board won't let and refuses to let the vote take place?
What then?

for gremlin....Why was your Exec board attacking a founding member of your club ?(short version)please.
How dare they!!! if it was'nt for guys like him there might not be a club , runway, etc.!!!!
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Old 06-29-2007, 08:34 AM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????

This entire discussion appears to be nothing more than a means to reopen an old fight that has been lost. Personally, I think that it's time to move on, and either find a new group to fly with, or find another hobby. This is getting a little old. If someone has this much time to rehash and rehash a perceived slight, insult or wrong, then that person has adequate time to find something productive to emplooy his brain.

Bill, AMA 4720
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Old 06-29-2007, 08:48 AM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????

Actually in this case i disagree. Though I am sure John may have alterier motives, the discussion itself is very valid. The value and need for roberts rules of order and the need ot know them and understand them.

I am the first to jump on john casey when he keeps bringing up the same old junk, and I am sure there is a little bit f that in here, but nonetheless the discussion has not strayed nor become personal or has it attacked a specific club or executive board.

Give John a break on this one
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Old 06-29-2007, 10:04 AM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????


ORIGINAL: SSRCCPREZ

Actually in this case i disagree. Though I am sure John may have alterier motives, the discussion itself is very valid. The value and need for roberts rules of order and the need ot know them and understand them.

I am the first to jump on john casey when he keeps bringing up the same old junk, and I am sure there is a little bit f that in here, but nonetheless the discussion has not strayed nor become personal or has it attacked a specific club or executive board.

Give John a break on this one

Well said. Many clubs have RRoO in their bylaws, but it's rare that anyone at a meeting has actually studied them. If you are going to defend and preserve your rights, you gotta know what they are! Just ask any "jailhouse lawyer" - those particular inmates do their time in the law library. Those that don't are doomed to lose.
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Old 06-29-2007, 03:53 PM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????

Thanks for cutting me a break...

I would like to make the observation that those who don't know their rights under, laws , roberts rules of order.... etc,
are the very ones that get their rights stepped on...and most of the time don't even know it.
And because of thier ingnorance ......the guys doing the stepping ....get away with it.

In gremlins situation.... the membership took action, because apparently
they knew the system(roberts rules) and did not allow ANYONE(including the very people they elected)
to bypass the process. Not all members are so educated.

Education is a great thing, this subject, Roberts rules of order,
which is included in better than 99% of the bylaws of AMA clubs,
is well worth the posting time and.......the education that comes with discussing it.

In reply to Davids( moderators) comments:
I believe that roberts rules came about..... because adults could not act like adults
when faced with being forced to do the will of the true majority that they themselves
were in opposition to.

I asked gremlin the questions...because his club was successfull in maintaining the "process" where others have failed.
And I can't talk about what happened in my club anymore,(per the moderators) so reading a short version what transpired
at his club might be enlighting. I do and will however repect gremlin's choice not to air any dirty
laundry , as the process of roberts rules of order worked as it was supposed to...problem resolved.

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Old 07-01-2007, 01:10 AM
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Default RE: Roberts rules of order?????

I too found the info I was seeking at a local Barnes And Noble book store. Makes for some good reading. I now see the error of my own ways, as well as proper proceedure to "head" the club meetings, limit disorder, and protect the rights of the members, include the absent members at meetings.
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