Must have 5 members for a club
07-09-2007, 06:01 AM
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Must have 5 members for a club
Our AMA charter club is in trouble. First of all we are located in a small midwestern town of about 8200 people. Currently we have about 8 members. Actually make that 6 as two keep riding the fence about joining the AMA and two are talking about quitting as they have lost interest. That will leave us with four which makes us one short of the AMA mandatory 5 number to be a AMA club. We have tried countless times to get new blood but we have a very small population to draw from. We get alot of lookers but very few takers. My question is, why doesn't the AMA take each situation on a club by club basis. We have a beautiful flying sight but just not alot of people. We want to stay AMA but it doesn't look good. Any suggestions? Joe
07-09-2007, 06:17 AM
#2
RE: Must have 5 members for a club
How do you maintain a site with so few members? but maybe you could offer free
membership in the club for one year for the next so many people that join.
Also you could have a special where a couple of people could get free membership with
paid AMA for one year.
membership in the club for one year for the next so many people that join.
Also you could have a special where a couple of people could get free membership with
paid AMA for one year.
07-09-2007, 07:36 AM
#4
RE: Must have 5 members for a club
I suggest you make friends in other clubs, and ask a couple of officers to accept a free membership in your club, for the purpose of maintaining status. You have access to other club contacts through the AMA site.
Good luck,
Dave Olson
Good luck,
Dave Olson
07-09-2007, 11:12 AM
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RE: Must have 5 members for a club
What Silversurfer and Toolman said.
If the cost of one AMA membership divided among four people is going to cause a problem then maintaining a flying site should be out of the question.
Expecting any type of national organization to handle exceptions is unrealistic no matter how reasonable it may seem to you or your group. There are as many other types of problems on local levels as there are clubs making it impossible to address all of the exceptions that arise.
If the cost of one AMA membership divided among four people is going to cause a problem then maintaining a flying site should be out of the question.
Expecting any type of national organization to handle exceptions is unrealistic no matter how reasonable it may seem to you or your group. There are as many other types of problems on local levels as there are clubs making it impossible to address all of the exceptions that arise.
07-09-2007, 11:51 AM
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RE: Must have 5 members for a club
ORIGINAL: JL636
<snip>
My question is, why doesn't the AMA take each situation on a club by club basis. We have a beautiful flying sight but just not alot of people. We want to stay AMA but it doesn't look good. Any suggestions? Joe
<snip>
My question is, why doesn't the AMA take each situation on a club by club basis. We have a beautiful flying sight but just not alot of people. We want to stay AMA but it doesn't look good. Any suggestions? Joe
Abel
07-09-2007, 12:41 PM
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RE: Must have 5 members for a club
Thanks for the replies. As far being a small club and having such a nice flying sight, let me explain. We do not own the property, its owned by the state. The manager of this particular state Agri Dept is a friend of one of our members. When we had no sight, he offered a area in the "back fourty" if we wanted it and would maintain it. We jumped at the chance. A few of us broke our backs picking rocks, scrounging up a roller and mower so we could have a nice sight. We worked our butts off. And now we have one of the best sights around. And as far as the comment that we shouldn't have such a sight....bull, we earned it. The only thing given to us was the land use which we greatly appreciate. We are so happy and proud to have such a sight we invite anyone who is a member to come to our field and fly for free. Our fun flys are free, no landing fees. We want our fellow RC'ers to come by and help us enjoy our field. I posted this question to help me open any avenues I could find. I truely thank you Mr. Pranger, your offer is what being a RC'er is all about. With help we will make it through this mess. As far as the AMA not being able to handle club issues on a individual basis, I say that is the wrong way to look at it. Individuals make up clubs, clubs make the AMA. The main focal point of the AMA should be to put the member first. When I took the President's office two years ago, my main focus point was and is to put the member first and foremost, to handle club and member problems the best I can, I will not fail at that. I will talk to the AMA about this. Mr. Pranger, again, THANK YOU, I will PM you in the next couple of days. Joe
07-09-2007, 01:41 PM
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RE: Must have 5 members for a club
Consider dropping the AMA charter. As I understand it, you're flying on State owned land with the express permission of the state. You are not being charged for access, and you are not charging anyone for access to use the property. Consequently, you are probably protected from liability by Wisconsin's Recreational Use Statute. You might consider incorporating your club as a non-profit corporation for the purpose of protecting individual club members from a lawsuit. This would obviate the need for the AMA to provide an insurance certificate for the property owner (the State). You can still require individual AMA membership to fly there, and that will ensure individuals are covered.
Brad
Brad
07-09-2007, 01:44 PM
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RE: Must have 5 members for a club
Doing the work to make a flying site is not earning anything. That is part and parcel of what it takes to have a place to fly. I am a member of three clubs in the area and not only do we have to do all the work that you have described we have to pay to be on the property.
Flying sites for all time have required some group to invest effort and money to create and maintain them.
Back to AMA just who would you pick in the organization to handle the hundreds if not thousands of requests for exceptions on just about everything that you can imagine?
I am not a strong supporter of AMA but I do know that it is impractical to try to accomodate members or clubs on an individual basis no matter how just the cause seems. If a matter is found to be a broad based problem then the rule can be changed to apply to all not just the ones wanting the exception.
It would be nice if national organizations could handle an individual problem "just this once" but there is no practical mechanism that allows this. The pragmatic approach is adapt at the local level to meet the requirements of the national organization or find an entirely different solution that works for your group that does not involve the national group.
Flying sites for all time have required some group to invest effort and money to create and maintain them.
Back to AMA just who would you pick in the organization to handle the hundreds if not thousands of requests for exceptions on just about everything that you can imagine?
I am not a strong supporter of AMA but I do know that it is impractical to try to accomodate members or clubs on an individual basis no matter how just the cause seems. If a matter is found to be a broad based problem then the rule can be changed to apply to all not just the ones wanting the exception.
It would be nice if national organizations could handle an individual problem "just this once" but there is no practical mechanism that allows this. The pragmatic approach is adapt at the local level to meet the requirements of the national organization or find an entirely different solution that works for your group that does not involve the national group.
ORIGINAL: JL636
Thanks for the replies. As far being a small club and having such a nice flying sight, let me explain. We do not own the property, its owned by the state. The manager of this particular state Agri Dept is a friend of one of our members. When we had no sight, he offered a area in the "back fourty" if we wanted it and would maintain it. We jumped at the chance. A few of us broke our backs picking rocks, scrounging up a roller and mower so we could have a nice sight. We worked our butts off. And now we have one of the best sights around. And as far as the comment that we shouldn't have such a sight....bull, we earned it. The only thing given to us was the land use which we greatly appreciate. We are so happy and proud to have such a sight we invite anyone who is a member to come to our field and fly for free. Our fun flys are free, no landing fees. We want our fellow RC'ers to come by and help us enjoy our field. I posted this question to help me open any avenues I could find. I truely thank you Mr. Pranger, your offer is what being a RC'er is all about. With help we will make it through this mess. As far as the AMA not being able to handle club issues on a individual basis, I say that is the wrong way to look at it. Individuals make up clubs, clubs make the AMA. The main focal point of the AMA should be to put the member first. When I took the President's office two years ago, my main focus point was and is to put the member first and foremost, to handle club and member problems the best I can, I will not fail at that. I will talk to the AMA about this. Mr. Pranger, again, THANK YOU, I will PM you in the next couple of days. Joe
Thanks for the replies. As far being a small club and having such a nice flying sight, let me explain. We do not own the property, its owned by the state. The manager of this particular state Agri Dept is a friend of one of our members. When we had no sight, he offered a area in the "back fourty" if we wanted it and would maintain it. We jumped at the chance. A few of us broke our backs picking rocks, scrounging up a roller and mower so we could have a nice sight. We worked our butts off. And now we have one of the best sights around. And as far as the comment that we shouldn't have such a sight....bull, we earned it. The only thing given to us was the land use which we greatly appreciate. We are so happy and proud to have such a sight we invite anyone who is a member to come to our field and fly for free. Our fun flys are free, no landing fees. We want our fellow RC'ers to come by and help us enjoy our field. I posted this question to help me open any avenues I could find. I truely thank you Mr. Pranger, your offer is what being a RC'er is all about. With help we will make it through this mess. As far as the AMA not being able to handle club issues on a individual basis, I say that is the wrong way to look at it. Individuals make up clubs, clubs make the AMA. The main focal point of the AMA should be to put the member first. When I took the President's office two years ago, my main focus point was and is to put the member first and foremost, to handle club and member problems the best I can, I will not fail at that. I will talk to the AMA about this. Mr. Pranger, again, THANK YOU, I will PM you in the next couple of days. Joe
07-09-2007, 01:46 PM
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RE: Must have 5 members for a club
You need some members. There is no rule in the AMA as to where your members are from, take up the offer of Mr. Pranger. Our Florida club has members from a number of Northern states. The last thing you want to do is ask some Jr. Bueaucrat in Muncie about it. Just do it. And if you need more I would glad to be on your club roster. Just in case I happen to be in the area sometime in the future. Ok, from this and previous posts you now have nearly doubled your club membership. Now lets fly!
Red S. AMA 951
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07-09-2007, 01:46 PM
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RE: Must have 5 members for a club
Keeping the AMA club charter is useful for insurance reasons if nothing else. A chartered club gets insurance for the site that the individual members don't have.
Getting guys online to join isn't hard (as you've seen), same with other local clubs. and feel free to streach "local" quite a bit
. I also agree with the wives and kids thing.
Getting guys online to join isn't hard (as you've seen), same with other local clubs. and feel free to streach "local" quite a bit
. I also agree with the wives and kids thing.
07-09-2007, 02:51 PM
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RE: Must have 5 members for a club
ORIGINAL: Montague
Keeping the AMA club charter is useful for insurance reasons if nothing else. A chartered club gets insurance for the site that the individual members don't have.
Keeping the AMA club charter is useful for insurance reasons if nothing else. A chartered club gets insurance for the site that the individual members don't have.
By forming a non-profit corporation, the club, without the AMA charter, protects the individual members. The club could be sued for its assets, but as long as the club doesn't own any assets, the club members are individually protected.
These statutes are something all clubs should be aware of, as they can be a selling point to helping identify potential flying sites, particularly if the landowner is worried about liablility.
Brad
07-09-2007, 03:07 PM
#15
RE: Must have 5 members for a club
When I started our local club some years back we had four human and one feline card carrying members. For the same reasons you are concerned for two years my cat Nirmal was a paid up card carrying member
If you are on any kind of federal or government owned property it would be a big mistake to drop the AMA club charter. While you may be using the property now on a handshake, sooner or later someone is gonna wake up and demand insurance naming the property owner whoever that entity may be.
This nameing of the owner or state entity as a primary insured is virtually always required. Part of your charter fee and materials is this certificate naming the property owner of your listed flying site as a named and primary insured.
We would have disappeared many years ago and I suspect many other flying sites all accross the country would have disappeared long ago without this primary insurance for the property owner.
John
If you are on any kind of federal or government owned property it would be a big mistake to drop the AMA club charter. While you may be using the property now on a handshake, sooner or later someone is gonna wake up and demand insurance naming the property owner whoever that entity may be.
This nameing of the owner or state entity as a primary insured is virtually always required. Part of your charter fee and materials is this certificate naming the property owner of your listed flying site as a named and primary insured.
We would have disappeared many years ago and I suspect many other flying sites all accross the country would have disappeared long ago without this primary insurance for the property owner.
John
07-09-2007, 03:13 PM
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RE: Must have 5 members for a club
Do you have a pointer to the "recreational use statutes" you refer to? I'm curious.
Even with them, a lot of landowners like to see insurance, which makes me wonder how useful in court those statutes really are, and what they cover.
The AMA club insurance covers things like "slip and fall" accidents by spectators.
Even with them, a lot of landowners like to see insurance, which makes me wonder how useful in court those statutes really are, and what they cover.
The AMA club insurance covers things like "slip and fall" accidents by spectators.
07-09-2007, 03:17 PM
#17
RE: Must have 5 members for a club
The recreational use statutes provide protection from liability for property owners that allow public use of their lands for recreational purpuses. Consequently, there is no need for the AMA to provide insurance for the site as long as the requirements of the recreational use statute are followed. Normal provisions are that persons don't pay to use the site, and the site is not being operated for profit. Most government bodies have immunity anyway.
A number of good ideas and offers were offered JL636. He is only 40 miles from Green Bay. Big area!
Using the ideas presented and the youth membership for 2 sounds easy enough to fill the requirement of 5 people.
>>>>>>>>
AMA Web
2007 Club Officers Sheet
Required to Charter
Please remember all club officers must be 2007 AMA members.
At least three (3) officers must be adult members (19 years or older) and the club must have a minimum of five (5) members.
<<<<<<<
07-09-2007, 04:03 PM
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RE: Must have 5 members for a club
"You might consider incorporating your club as a non-profit corporation"
It might be a simple matter of economics. What are the annual costs of incorporating vs. AMA club charter?
It might be a simple matter of economics. What are the annual costs of incorporating vs. AMA club charter?
07-09-2007, 04:48 PM
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RE: Must have 5 members for a club
Wisconsins Recreational Use Statute: [link]http://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/dawson/recreate/wi_rec.htm[/link]
Incorporation varies from State to State, but typically there are no fees for non-profits. In Maryland, it cost us about $400 total in fees to incorporate our club. Note that the AMA is recommending clubs incorporate in addition to the insurance provided by AMA.
Brad
Incorporation varies from State to State, but typically there are no fees for non-profits. In Maryland, it cost us about $400 total in fees to incorporate our club. Note that the AMA is recommending clubs incorporate in addition to the insurance provided by AMA.
Brad
07-10-2007, 01:15 PM
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RE: Must have 5 members for a club
Ok, so the statute you mention is a state thing, and therefore will probably vary quite a bit in the details from state to state. And those details can be critical when it comes to being sued or protecting the landowner from being sued, which means getting a field. Which is kind of what I thought, since it didn't sound like someting on the Federal level.
Anyway, I agree that incorporating a club is a good idea. It's not bullet proof, but it makes it a little harder for club officiers and members to get personally sued over something.
Anyway, I agree that incorporating a club is a good idea. It's not bullet proof, but it makes it a little harder for club officiers and members to get personally sued over something.
