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Economy BOOM!

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Old 07-31-2007, 02:16 AM
  #1  
Hossfly
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Default Economy BOOM!

Haven't yet received that Aug MA, but up here in these north-woods I was checking some older reading material that I brought along. The AMA's MA really has a BOOM in the economy or so it appears to me.

The June, 07 MA, had 203 pages available for advertising. There are 54 FULL PAGE ADS. (All AMA self advertising not included) with 68 total-page-space delegated to advertising which is 33% of the available pages.

The July, 07 MA had 219 available pages, an increase of 16 pages, being an 8% increase. 80 & 2/3 pages were used for ads. 12 of the 16 extra pages were full page ads, as there were 66 full page ads. This increase in ads consumed 37% of the magazine.
79% of the increased pages were for ads.

Now somewhere within this forum there is an author that bleats how AMA cannot find new advertisers. I think the publishers of MA are not aware of that bleating as they seem to be doing very well. Be advised that the numbers herein are not computer verified but from an evening's observation.

Would it not be wonderful if they could just find out how to use all these advertisers to make the magazine a profitable business and thus release your dues monies to more lucrative devices to promote the sport? Sometimes I wonder if my continual remarks about MA being cheap advertising to the conscripted subscriber numbers nearly twice the circulation of any other US modeling magazine, might just be directing advertisers to this very good deal for them. The large amount of new full page ads seem to indicate such. [sm=omg_smile.gif]
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:52 AM
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!

Hoss I read your posts any time I see them. You always have very insightfull observations. But I think you might have just a little to much time on your hands. Sitting around in the evening counting pages of advertising. Just kidding about the counting pages thing. I think your point is valid.

Maybe a small dues reduction would be in order.
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Old 07-31-2007, 07:12 AM
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!

ORIGINAL: Hossfly
Now somewhere within this forum there is an author that bleats how AMA cannot find new advertisers. I think the publishers of MA are not aware of that bleating as they seem to be doing very well. Be advised that the numbers herein are not computer verified but from an evening's observation.
You see numbers on a rate sheet and ads in a book. When you start counting dollars in your bank account instead of pages in a book like the advertisers do the world looks quite different. There is a financial reason why MA rates are where they are and when you become President you will not be changing the ad rates until your advertisers are willing to spend the dollars you think you can suck out of them.

I hate to say it Hoss, but what your doing is no different then Michael Moore, you're exploiting the obvious. We all know that ad rates are cheap in MA. Heck they are realitivley cheap on RCU and anywhere else you want to spend ad dollars in the RC industry. But they are RELATIVE to the bulk of the industry revenues. But the real question is what can you REALLY do to fix the problem? Raising rates is as easy as saying we'll just federalize the national health care system and the USA will be a utopia, like Cuba. But simply raising ad rates will not simply fix the problem either, much like our new Cuban based national health care system. But I would like to hear a real solution because the AMA will never drop MA.
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Old 08-01-2007, 06:30 PM
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!

That is very interesting, I hope it shows new strength in our hobby; not a seasonal thing. I wonder if the other mags show a similar increase in the time period. Counting like you did or just counting cars at various malls leads to good market research.
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Old 08-01-2007, 08:58 PM
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!

Horrace,

Fascinating stuff....

However, I might caution that a one month observation does not a trend make. if the Aug 07 MA has 9% FEWER ads, we could hardly say that MA is "losing advertisers".

The current one month 'trend" COULD be explained by something fairly simple...for example : Summer season increases LHS income, LHS chooses to spend some of that money in MA, collection times and ad deadlines dictate that the ad doesn't appear until July.

I DO, however, think the methodology is valid...and a longer trend (one that was, for example, to continue on past the peak summer flying season) might well be significant.
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Old 08-01-2007, 10:15 PM
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!

Gee Horrace! What have you been doing up there? Soaking your head in that lake just north of you? I agree you have too much time on your hands. Take a dip! Dive deep! The water can't be less than 37 or 38 degrees!

Fact of the matter is this. The job of any corporation, non-profit or not, is to fullfill it's mission, spoken or not. One can often determine if the spoken mission is a lie by the way the money is laundered.

In the case of the AMA and MA, it is quite obvious that the AMA could in fact have much more funds for the "Advancement of the hobby" were they to make MA live from advertising income. That is, pay it's own way.

The fact that MA does not pay its own way tells me one of two things are going on. Either them in charge at Muncie are the biggest bunch of incompetant business people since Enron! Or, the "Advancement of the hobby' is nothing more than a smoke screen! With a few mirrors thrown in! And those at Muncie are the most competant since Enron!

I contend something is rotten in Muncie (though I've always felt that even before AMA moved there). I also contend I don't care because I have already spoken with my wallet. I would suggest more do the same and eventually enough pressure will be placed on those with alternative goals to cause them to silently slip away. Then maybe the AMA can get back to the business it claims to be in!

The Mule
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Old 08-02-2007, 07:07 AM
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!


ORIGINAL: Stubborn Mule


I contend something is rotten in Muncie (though I've always felt that even before AMA moved there). I also contend I don't care because I have already spoken with my wallet. I would suggest more do the same and eventually enough pressure will be placed on those with alternative goals to cause them to silently slip away. Then maybe the AMA can get back to the business it claims to be in!

The Mule
We had the chance to speak with our wallets but the majority chose not to. Remember Sports Flyers of America and United Modelers of America?

CCR
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Old 08-02-2007, 07:15 AM
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!


ORIGINAL: Stubborn Mule
The fact that MA does not pay its own way tells me one of two things are going on. Either them in charge at Muncie are the biggest bunch of incompetant business people since Enron! Or, the "Advancement of the hobby' is nothing more than a smoke screen! With a few mirrors thrown in! And those at Muncie are the most competant since Enron!
Don't you think the AMA would rather just simply raise magazine rates instead of cutting foam to help raise revenues? Do you really think for a second they are that dumb? What would the point of having someone with a resume like Jim Cherry's being on board who would miss something so simple with the credentials he bears? I mean my god a 4th grader could figure out that raising rates would be the better solution then getting into the foam cutting business. But what Hoss will never realize is that MA just simply CANNOT RAISE THE RATES, PERIOD. The market makes that decision, end of story. Now lets hear a REAL solution like a real leader can do. Obviously Jim Cherry and Dave Brown are incompetent, what is his BUSINESS solution.
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Old 08-02-2007, 09:43 AM
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!

As a 501C3, the AMA is required to maintain contact with its members, which it does through MA. The content is secondary. I wrote for the magazine for a year, and endured 3 different editors, each one as dumb as next. they have no idea who was reading the magazne, nor did they care. it was all about expense, never revenues. when i did an analysis similar to what hoss did (trying to justify making the scale aerobatics column monthly because as a discipline, it accounted for 1/3 of the ad space) i was told, and I quote "we've never looked at it that way." in order words, the brain trust had never analyzed their advertising revenues by discipline - something that any for profit editor needs to be able to do while sleeping. luckily, all my dealings with the AMA are behind me, but i don't think what you have in muncie could be called a business.
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Old 08-02-2007, 10:24 AM
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!

ORIGINAL: highK

As a 501C3, the AMA is required to maintain contact with its members, which it does through MA. The content is secondary. I wrote for the magazine for a year, and endured 3 different editors, each one as dumb as next. they have no idea who was reading the magazne, nor did they care. it was all about expense, never revenues. when i did an analysis similar to what hoss did (trying to justify making the scale aerobatics column monthly because as a discipline, it accounted for 1/3 of the ad space) i was told, and I quote "we've never looked at it that way." in order words, the brain trust had never analyzed their advertising revenues by discipline - something that any for profit editor needs to be able to do while sleeping. luckily, all my dealings with the AMA are behind me, but i don't think what you have in muncie could be called a business.
Well for one thing a 501c3 only has to make information freely available to its members; it does not have to publish anything to anyone. They must keep records freely available, which could mean a single copy in a location which anyone has access to during regular business hours. Or specific documents requested at the expense of the person making the request within a reasonable time period. So in that case, from a requirement basis, all the published information in the magazine is equal.

Now it is in the better interest of the AMA to make "public" information available to it's member's from a sales and marketing perspective i.e. keep em happy. So in that case the revenue the magazine brings in to the AMA offsets the costs of a published magazine and a newsletter at the actual cost of .66 per member per month, shipped to the door. The AMA will never let the magazine go at those actual costs. And the AMA can do nothing about increasing the revenues until the market bears it, period and end of story.

Now I don't doubt the AMA may be mismanaging money in regards to spending allocations of the magazine, but that is not what Hoss is addressing. Hoss is addressing that simply raising advertising rates will increase magazine revenues, but knowing advertising very well; all it will do is change the advertising dynamics that advertisers are willing to spend. Meaning that all the advertisers will simply do is change the ad sizes to correlate their available marketing budget. The AMA cannot simply just raise rates, until there is a demand, meaning no ad space available. Once ad space is "sold out" then you can raise rates accordingly.
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Old 08-02-2007, 10:25 AM
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!

Funny,even with all it's shortcomings listed above, still
only 5% of the AMA membership seems to be unhappy.
With a 95% batting average , it would appear that
the AMA seems to be doing a fairly decent job.

Could MA be better ? Perhaps , but most seem ok with it
so why change.

Regards,
Roby
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Old 08-02-2007, 02:14 PM
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!

ORIGINAL: Roby

Funny,even with all it's shortcomings listed above, still
only 5% of the AMA membership seems to be unhappy.
With a 95% batting average , it would appear that
the AMA seems to be doing a fairly decent job.

Could MA be better ? Perhaps , but most seem ok with it
so why change.

Regards,
Roby
Just wondering. Where did you get your stats? And were you refering to AMA or MA?
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Old 08-02-2007, 02:52 PM
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!

AMA ,which MA is part of.

My numbers are from a survey that was conducted several
months ago by AMA. I'll presume you wern't aware of the
survey. The results were posted in MA.

Fact :
Only 5% of the membership that responded seems to have
a problem with how the AMA is performing.

Of course ,that means that 95% are happy with things just
the way they are, so why change.

Can't please everyone but 9.5 out of 10 is pretty good. Yes ?

To the 5%,........kick back , go with the flow , have fun, afterall
it is just a hobby.

Regards,
Roby
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Old 08-02-2007, 03:06 PM
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!

ORIGINAL: Roby

AMA ,which MA is part of.

My numbers are from a survey that was conducted several
months ago by AMA. I'll presume you wern't aware of the
survey. The results were posted in MA.



Actually, I figured you used the errant ‘facts’ from that study. You might want to ask yourself about those that did not respond...AMA members or not. That survey means very little but if you feel better being feed in the dark by all means have a second or third helping as I won’t be dining there…you can have my share and a few of the other’s portion as well. I don't mean to be smartask but that survey is really lopsided. You seem pretty intelligent I think you can see that.

If I took a survey of all the people that shopped at a particular department store I would only think it could be positive…or they wouldn’t be there. Who isn’t here is the question that needs answers and why is that.
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Old 08-02-2007, 03:41 PM
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!


ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf

You might want to ask yourself about those that did not respond...AMA members or not.
Hey LCS, thanks for that suggestion.

I first asked myself "Self, what percentage of AMA members did not respond?" On finding the pertinent data and further contemplation of several msec duration, I deduced that most folks involved in aeromodeling could give a rat's hiney about AMA.
Also given (as Roby related) that the few that do care "are happy with things just the way they are, so why change," the charade of holding elections should be dropped saving the unwarranted expense.

Abel
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Old 08-02-2007, 03:41 PM
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!

If I took a survey of all the people that shopped at a particular department store I would only think it could be positive…or they wouldn’t be there. Who isn’t here is the question that needs answers and why is that.

It always depends on the criteria for the poll. If you took a survey of people that eating at McDonalds you would be amusingly surprised they prefer the food at Burger King better. If you were to take a poll between shopping experience at WalMart and Saks 5th Ave, who do you think would come out on top. Yes even taking the poll directly to people shopping at WalMart.

95% of AMA members, not non AMA members are happy with the AMA, that was the criteria.
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Old 08-02-2007, 03:55 PM
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!

"My numbers are from a survey that was conducted several
months ago by AMA. I'll presume you wern't aware of the
survey. The results were posted in MA."

And just how many members responded to the survey? A very small percentage if memory serves me right. I also recall a Email to the membership about taking it..... A number of people posted here about no being able to go on to take it. 5% of nothing is still nothing. At the rate that were losing fields and members due to age not to mention the electric/park flyer craze we cannot afford for MA not to turn a profit or break even. Unless you want a nice dues increase. As you pointed out 95% are happy so what the heck.
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Old 08-02-2007, 04:01 PM
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!

ORIGINAL: STLPilot
95% of AMA members, not non AMA members are happy with the AMA, that was the criteria.
Since how we're analyzing this survey seems to have become an issue, let's be correct with what we're stating:

95% of AMA members who responded to the survey indicated they were not dissatisfied with how the AMA is performing.
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Old 08-02-2007, 04:17 PM
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ORIGINAL: STLPilot

95% of AMA members, not non AMA members are happy with the AMA, that was the criteria.

That's exactly the sort of conclusion one would expect from you and 98.3721% of your fellow marketeering geniuses.

Abel
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Old 08-02-2007, 04:29 PM
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!

Ooops and accident.

Well we could use the LCS survey, nothing.
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Old 08-02-2007, 06:44 PM
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!

*heh*

It strikes me that this thread is not only getting off topic, but heading in a rather "troubling" direction.

Let's take as a given that, however you wish to phrase it, 95% of respondents to a survey said they like the AMA.

Ok...fine. Should we now stop discussing AMA issues, or taking issue with AMA actions or policies we find troublesome? is this to be the answer to everything. "Hey...95% of the people like it, so it's fine."

Does one need to be "dissatisfied" with AMA...more to the point, does one need to have EXPRESSED dissatisfaction with the AMA to find opportunities for improvement? If one is "happy" with the AMA, does this mean you think they're doing everything as well as it can possibly be done? It seems to me, while relevant, that a 95% satisfaction rating doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement in any number of areas.

I think (and Horrace, please correct me if I'm wrong) Horrace's point has ALWAYS been that, under different management, MA magazine could be a source of INCOME of the AMA, or at the very least, less of a drain on its resources. It would seem that at least one former contributor to the magazine agrees, and specifically identifies some concerns that others have speculated might exist.

To be sure, each of us has expertise in different areas...and an expertise in advertising and marketing is certainly topical here...but, imo at least, these knowledge bases become VALUABLE to the issue if, and only if, they're used to examine the situation objectively, and not simply to refute arguments based on who made them....and certainly not when used to debate the meaning behind a moot tangent.
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Old 08-02-2007, 09:42 PM
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!

A better chunk of data would be asking
How many AMA members chose not to renew this year.

Anyone so fed up withe the horrible way MA is run, that they chose to leave the AMA... those people are not to be counted by the member survey as UnHappy.

I was AMA,
I abhor the way MA runs in the red,
so I quit AMA (didnt Renew)

There is a revenue stream for ya, a red hemorage of a revenue stream as folks leave AMA.
But as long as AMA only asks folks that chose to stay, the rose glasses get more nose time.

Is it too late to sign back up, in time to vote for Hoss?
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Old 08-03-2007, 12:38 AM
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!

no, kid, it is not too late to reup, online, i would suggest.
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Old 08-03-2007, 06:35 AM
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!

I have to wonder , If there was a local election , and only
7,500 out of the 160,000 voters paticipated , would the
election be valid ? Of course it would . It doesn't matter
who "didn't" make the effort to be heard. What gets counted
was the effort of those who did.

Take a look at this forum. With all the members that RCU has it
seems that most of the complaints about AMA comes from a
relatively small number. Perhaps the forum might consider a name
change like, "The 5% within the AMA"

In my own little survey within my club over the years,it seems
that most members just want to pay the 58 bucks and fly . With the
exception of a few, the only thing they know about AMA is
what they get from a glance at MA from time to time.
I guess that's all they really want or need.

From what I've seen locally the 95 % number might actually
be a little low.

It 's just a hobby.

Hoss, I apologize for hi-jacking your thread.

Regards,
Roby
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Old 08-03-2007, 07:15 AM
  #25  
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Default RE: Economy BOOM!

ORIGINAL: gboulton
I think (and Horrace, please correct me if I'm wrong) Horrace's point has ALWAYS been that, under different management, MA magazine could be a source of INCOME of the AMA, or at the very least, less of a drain on its resources. It would seem that at least one former contributor to the magazine agrees, and specifically identifies some concerns that others have speculated might exist.

To be sure, each of us has expertise in different areas...and an expertise in advertising and marketing is certainly topical here...but, imo at least, these knowledge bases become VALUABLE to the issue if, and only if, they're used to examine the situation objectively, and not simply to refute arguments based on who made them....and certainly not when used to debate the meaning behind a moot tangent.
Well we are now talking about 2 pieces, 1 is management and the other is financial. Now in times they go hand in hand, perhaps even this time. The problem on the management side is that the people that do the bulk of the workload for MA either work for free or well below market value. That's always a problem. You get what you pay for. We know there are going to be issues on the management side just for that point alone. Such is life, at least you have people doing the best job they can for the price they are being paid. At the very least, thank them instead of trying to lower morale.

However Hoss has been for month after month been addressing that advertising rates in MA are too low. Maybe he's right, but that has nothing to do with management at the AMA. The price is always set by the advertisers, always. No matter what MA charges it will only load balance the amount of ads in the magazine. This is true in every single magazine on the planet. You charge $500 for the a half page this month and change to $500 for a quarter page next month, the advertiser takes the ad that he can afford, that's how it works. So in retrospect, it really doesn't matter what you charge until there is a demand for the ad space.

Now if you want to talk about expertise, I will flash my badge. I've been activley involved in RC for about 5-6 years now. I've only built about 3 ARF's in my life and pretty much bought the rest ready to fly. So I really don't know much about building RC planes. But I've own(ed) 2 RC companies and have and still consult for at least 6 others. You've seen my ads in every RC magazine, you've seen my artwork on product boxes, you've seen ads I've created on RCU, RC Groups and a dozen other RC sites. I've done a few magazine reviews and RCU reviews. I've also created hundreds of other various ad pieces for a multitude of reasons and companies. And I've also contracted with the advertiser or printer for a bulk of the ad work. I've spent thousands of my own dollars in RC advertising and consulted for 10's of thousands of dollars in my companies and other companies advertising dollars and I will tell you what I tell them, MA is the most expensive RC magazine in the industy. They are the only rags that will not negotiate on price and the other magazines will go less then half of their advertised rate. I've shopped every RC advertising source there is in this country and will tell you that ALL of RC advertising is relativley cheap. The #1 reason it's cheap is because the bulk of the industry is mom and pop operations. That keeps ad rates WAY down and MA feels the burden along with the rest of the RC ad industry.

There is nothing, absolutley nothing, that MA can do to increase ad rates more then the market is willing to bear. Right now the price is what the price is and is relative to the bulk of the industy. So what can MA do? They can spend more money pay higher wages and improve operations, or they can roll with what they have. Or perhaps they can cut foam to raise some revenues. But in the end the AMA will never drop MA magazine no matter what, never. It's pretty obvious that if you take away the magazine you've taken most of the fluff factor and when you are dealing with rough crowd like RC fliers, you need all the fluff factor you can get.
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