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Dissatisfaction with the AMA

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Old 09-13-2007, 01:00 AM
  #1  
littlecrankshaf
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Default Dissatisfaction with the AMA



I see Mode One felt the need to post questions along these lines to the candidates.


I would like to know why it is when someone in this forum disagrees with an AMA position or would like to see something done, done differently or not done at all, they are immediately labeled disgruntled, a malcontent or something similar? Must one blindly accept whatever the AMA does as divine to be considered cognizant of reality in this forum? How can we effect change without discussing alternate possibilities?

Wouldn’t you have concerns about someone that could not find anything they would not like to change about the AMA or anything else for that matter?

Thoughts?

BTW STL please give it a rest... your twisting is getting 50% dizzy.
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Old 09-13-2007, 02:31 AM
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Default RE: Dissatisfaction with the AMA

That is a good question LCS. IMO, experienced in AMA politics for 40 years +, I have been labeled as an AMA HATER 1st Class. Now just why would I spend so much time trying to do things FOR AMA and for bringing the items I perceive that need serious attention to public attention if I hated AMA? I love AMA as an institution. I simply want model aviation to be a national sport and that can happen only through AMA.

Actually the answer to your question and to my question is simply that if the powers-that-be can discredit someone with such attacks, then that someone ceases to be of any significant danger to the power brokers. _ell, our national USA political system is this very day, week, month, a prime example of tear down, lie, cheat and steal to discredit the other guy. [:@]

One thing that has always been a bad apple in the political arena, especially in the AMA, is when a vastly experienced individual steps up and complains or volunteers to do something, then the in-place hierarchy gets threatened and will tie up every gate. In addition those out in the field that have never experienced any political activism beyond their arm's length immediately hammer in with those items they can see, feel, or smell, that is to mean that they have little perception of the big-picture, the overall good, thus they label the one that does have the vision a traitor or in our case an AMA hater. That makes the power-brokers very happy.

The big guys at the top really love it when the story for the new candidate or candidate wanna'be is labeled with, "He can't work with the other people." Such label seems to be the price of having a track record of getting things done.

Unfortunately such will continue. When I see those that haven't made a significant difference in the past 10-15 years give all the political double-talk that is happening now, I predict business as usual will continue at AMA.


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Old 09-13-2007, 06:07 AM
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Default RE: Dissatisfaction with the AMA

When posting this question, no particular person came to mind (certainly not you Hoss. I feel your intent is constructive criticism). It's a given that people are going to be dissastifiid with anything and everything. Some of this dissatisfaction is justified, some of it is based on perceptions- true or false and some of it is simply; I want it this way and not that way!

I also know the question is basically unanswerable. However, that fact doesn’t mean it’s not real. It seems very pertinent, at least to me!

To complain without action, is only complaining!
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Old 09-13-2007, 07:21 AM
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Default RE: Dissatisfaction with the AMA

As a former elected official and heavily into town politics and run at least 2 state senate campaigns I can tell you two things for sure:
1. Control the language of the argument and you control the argument
2. if your opponent is too busy being on te defense he will have no time to be on the offense.

Does this sound familiar in here?

My other favorite is:
when name calling begins, the credibility of the argument ends
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:31 AM
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Default RE: Dissatisfaction with the AMA

Simply said, "Don't bring me problems, bring me solutions." Alternatively, "Don't be part of the problem, be part of the solution."

Dr.1
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Old 09-13-2007, 12:00 PM
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Default RE: Dissatisfaction with the AMA


ORIGINAL: Dr1Driver

Simply said, "Don't bring me problems, bring me solutions." Alternatively, "Don't be part of the problem, be part of the solution."

Dr.1
It seems to me that alternate viewpoints have usually been given in tandem with solutions for the most part within this forum. They are usually immediately rejected by the AMA is perfect bunch tho.
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Old 09-14-2007, 10:42 AM
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Default RE: Dissatisfaction with the AMA

well, we just had a thread locked that was trying to discuss what, if any, policies the AMA should grow to handle grant abuse.

A discussion of solutions gets old fights dragged in to bog the thread,
folks cant stay hypothetical and generic to look at what should be done rather than what has been done,
followed by a Moderator warning, then a lock.

Results: discussing solutions folks disagree with can be stopped by simply getting the thread locked.
We didnt get past page1 before a discussion of solutions was replaced with just a few folks trying to stop the discussion.

RCU AMA Forum has sunk to the point where it is not a place to discuss ideas/solutions for the AMA.
Should the AMA grow teeth into the grant policies? We dont know, we couldnt discuss what kind of teeth to grow at RCU because folks against the AMA Haters put an end to the discussion, to protect the ama.
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Old 09-14-2007, 10:56 AM
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Default RE: Dissatisfaction with the AMA


ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

well, we just had a thread locked that was trying to discuss what, if any, policies the AMA should grow to handle grant abuse.

A discussion of solutions gets old fights dragged in to bog the thread,
folks cant stay hypothetical and generic to look at what should be done rather than what has been done,
followed by a Moderator warning, then a lock.

Results: discussing solutions folks disagree with can be stopped by simply getting the thread locked.
We didnt get past page1 before a discussion of solutions was replaced with just a few folks trying to stop the discussion.

RCU AMA Forum has sunk to the point where it is not a place to discuss ideas/solutions for the AMA.
Should the AMA grow teeth into the grant policies? We dont know, we couldnt discuss what kind of teeth to grow at RCU because folks against the AMA Haters put an end to the discussion, to protect the ama.
So I guess you'll be leaving the RCU forums and the AMA soon??? Or just continue to complain about the people and other organizations who try to support a non profit organization which in turn tries to support aeromodelers. I noticed that it's culture shock, to some, to actually see people trying to support their organization. You still can't figure out what the AMA really stands for. All I can see is a bunch of arguments for the sake of arguing, but I just think it's the special ingredient in the glow fuel.
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:01 PM
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Default RE: Dissatisfaction with the AMA

STL-
Thank you for providing an example of the thread topic.
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Old 09-14-2007, 01:00 PM
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Default RE: Dissatisfaction with the AMA

Don't worry, I'm above all might and power on this forum. The mods would never shut the thread down for one of my posts, no way.

After all, it's all part of the conspiracy.
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Old 09-14-2007, 03:08 PM
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Default RE: Dissatisfaction with the AMA

: littlecrankshaf






I would like to know why it is when someone in this forum disagrees with an AMA position or would like to see something done, done differently or not done at all, they are immediately labeled disgruntled, a malcontent or something similar? Must one blindly accept whatever the AMA does as divine to be considered cognizant of reality in this forum? How can we effect change without discussing alternate possibilities?

Wouldn’t you have concerns about someone that could not find anything they would not like to change about the AMA or anything else for that matter?

Thoughts?
THere is a difference in arguing, and making a difference. Those that offer solutions more than " the AMA sucks" or "If so and so weren't in office, this would have never happened" etc. are not solutions. When some folks come up with solutions, like Hoss, then they have ground to be critical. The rest of us wouldn't even help out the AMA.


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Old 09-14-2007, 04:26 PM
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Default RE: Dissatisfaction with the AMA

I wasnt here for the Tail Touching thing,
but wasnt that just a bunch of folks that said the No TailTouching rule sux?
and did it on the internet to gather up a following / large enough group to make a difference?

Or a bunch of folks that argued for dozens of pages about Paintball?
Just a bunch of haters & folks that cant read... untill we see that they were right & AMA made the paintball stuff clear. That was a prime example of what many called just hating the ama, yet it yielded results/action from the AMA.

The minutes Hoss linked had a Reward Program for folks that can save the AMA money,
but any ideas LCS/Jug/I have to save a few bucks is just AMA Hating and must be argued against & insulted.
How many folks have good ideas to save the AMA money, but dont want to get slammed like we do, so they keep quiet.
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Old 09-14-2007, 04:33 PM
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Default RE: Dissatisfaction with the AMA


ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

I wasnt here for the Tail Touching thing,
but wasnt that just a bunch of folks that said the No TailTouching rule sux?
and did it on the internet to gather up a following / large enough group to make a difference?

Or a bunch of folks that argued for dozens of pages about Paintball?
Just a bunch of haters & folks that cant read... untill we see that they were right & AMA made the paintball stuff clear. That was a prime example of what many called just hating the ama, yet it yielded results/action from the AMA.

The minutes Hoss linked had a Reward Program for folks that can save the AMA money,
but any ideas LCS/Jug/I have to save a few bucks is just AMA Hating and must be argued against & insulted.
How many folks have good ideas to save the AMA money, but dont want to get slammed like we do, so they keep quiet.
Maybe they don't submit their ideas to the RCU AMA forum..... An idea is one thing, arguing about a guy's resignation is another. Let's act like adults to discuss ideas, and leave the personal stuff to the AMA.


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Old 09-14-2007, 04:35 PM
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Default RE: Dissatisfaction with the AMA


ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

I wasnt here for the Tail Touching thing,
but wasnt that just a bunch of folks that said the No TailTouching rule sux?
and did it on the internet to gather up a following / large enough group to make a difference?

Or a bunch of folks that argued for dozens of pages about Paintball?
Just a bunch of haters & folks that cant read... untill we see that they were right & AMA made the paintball stuff clear. That was a prime example of what many called just hating the ama, yet it yielded results/action from the AMA.

The minutes Hoss linked had a Reward Program for folks that can save the AMA money,
but any ideas LCS/Jug/I have to save a few bucks is just AMA Hating and must be argued against & insulted.
How many folks have good ideas to save the AMA money, but dont want to get slammed like we do, so they keep quiet.
Who you kidding, just be honest. It's the Republic of Texas versus everyone else. Why not just come out with it?
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Old 09-14-2007, 05:19 PM
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Default RE: Dissatisfaction with the AMA

ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

I wasnt here for the Tail Touching thing,
but wasnt that just a bunch of folks that said the No TailTouching rule sux?
and did it on the internet to gather up a following / large enough group to make a difference?

Or a bunch of folks that argued for dozens of pages about Paintball?
Just a bunch of haters & folks that cant read... untill we see that they were right & AMA made the paintball stuff clear. That was a prime example of what many called just hating the ama, yet it yielded results/action from the AMA.

The minutes Hoss linked had a Reward Program for folks that can save the AMA money,
but any ideas LCS/Jug/I have to save a few bucks is just AMA Hating and must be argued against & insulted.
How many folks have good ideas to save the AMA money, but dont want to get slammed like we do, so they keep quiet.

Kid, what some people in here, even moderators, need to know is that many of the things brought forward in here are the result of real life experience. You can plan for all the contingencies you want to but it still takes real life experience to tell you whether some thing works or needs to be changed. I was told by a AMA representative that the AMA had no mechanism to punish fraud. Thats it. I think that is a big issue. Call it digging up the past or whatever but it did take a real life experience to make a problem like this appear. I did my best to keep it on track and on the most benign comment it got squashed. I thought this was the AMA discussion forum. i have been called nasty words in here, including Red ***** AMA hater by a supposed moderator.

Well, Hoss warned us a few months ago, seems he could be right. For all those who hate me, i will begin to limit my activity in here.
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Old 09-15-2007, 07:59 AM
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Default RE: Dissatisfaction with the AMA


ORIGINAL: JUGFLIER
I was told by a AMA representative that the AMA had no mechanism to punish fraud. Thats it. I think that is a big issue.
You still don't get it do you. There is a mechanism, it's called a case by case determination and that's exactly what DM told you. Let me ask you, what is the mechanism for DUI hit and run? Well if your Lindsay Lohan it's a 180 minutes in jail. If your a crip or a blood, it's a year in jail.

The mechanism is called DUE PROCESS. It's based on the circumstances, the persons involved and your ability to prove yourself innocent and that can come in the form of a good lawyer or just some smooth talking. The EC votes to determine what the punishment would be, again, due process. But one thing the EC cannot do, what it appears you want them to do, is to control a criminals mind.

Fraud is a crime. The punishment for fraud in the legal system could and will be a lot worst then it will be in the AMA's sanctioning system. So if an individual or club commits criminal fraud against the AMA they are going to have a much bigger problem in front of a judge and jury then they will have with a few volunteer RC pilots. If you can't put your faith in the EC, not too worry, a crime of fraud against the AMA is also a crime against the people of the State and Country of the crime being committed.
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Old 09-15-2007, 01:11 PM
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Default RE: Dissatisfaction with the AMA

50%-
surely you see the difference between a thread someone starts to suggest a change to give the Grant Procedure Some Teeth in the future, and the purely speculative / 'wow thats a bummer' type threads about a guy getting fired.

Speaking of speculation- heres a little magic 8ball crystal ball work on my part-
Jug writes AMA to suggest giving the Grant Procedure Teeth to recover misused grant funds, they see that as a great way to 'save' money & give Jug a check from thier Reward Savings program.

We could have a conversation on what kind of teeth, but folks just kept baiting Jug with the past & labeling him a hater. Eventually Jug took the bait & the thread got locked.
Victory for the Good Ole Boys, lock threads that suggest change by the folks they call Haters.


But that does make one ponder-
Folks that want to change something about the AMA are just Haters, because they dislike what exists,
Muncie has the Reward for suggesting change.

So Muncie must just be Haters because they admit there might be better ways to do things?
They Hate so much they are willing to pay other folks to come up with things that are wrong?
Heck, I'm not running around asking folks to find fault with AMA... but Muncie is.
----- so that makes me a Hater and Muncie correct (since Muncie is correct on all things forever)


Fine, to enact my hate further, I refuse to pay random folks to find $ fault with AMA.
Does that make me a worse or better member?
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:31 PM
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Default RE: Dissatisfaction with the AMA

You still don't get it do you.
STL, you are the one who does not get it. The director of the program is telling AMA members that there is no mechanism to punish fraud in the grant program. You have a poster who asked his AVP and was told the same thing. You have another poster who told us of a club who used grant monies for trips.

You had a post by ldelbert (it has been removed by the moderator) in which HE said that they had submitted the report that I HAD MADE THEN TO. Notice he didn't say AMA made them he said I DID. Yesterday a member of that club told me they were going to have to return at least $600.00 to the AMA, over 5 years later. Please don't thank me. If i had not made the AMA keep their feet to the fire this money would be gone and no-one the wiser. How much money is granted and then NO FOLLOW UP. The clubs who get money are supposed to send in regular progress reports, THIS CLUB DIDN'T. In five years. All the BS you spew in this forum does not negate the facts.

The bottom line... You can apply for grants from AMA and lie, not use the money as specified and there is no recourse.... Unless there is some one like me in the club.
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:23 PM
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I am dissatified with the AMA because I had to keep the fire to their feet to make them make clubs accountable to AMA for monies recieved via the grant program. There was a post that was removed in which the poster said they had filed the appropriate paperwork with AMA BECAUSE I FORCED THEM TO. Please don't thank me. Yesterday i talked with a member of that club who told me they were going to have to return at least $600.00 of the grant they recieved. Had someone like me not kept the feet the fire this money would have gone unnoticed. Under the grant program clubs are required to give regular reports of money spent and work done. In five years in the case i know of not one report was filed in over five years. Who is watching out for you and me?

I was told by the person over the grant program that was no mechanism to punish fraudulent claims. Another poster said their AVP told them the same thing. I think this is one of the dirty little secrets. Wink, wink, nod, nod.
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Old 09-16-2007, 12:00 AM
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Default RE: Dissatisfaction with the AMA

JF, it's all about priorities. There's only so many hours in a day. First you gotta make sure that the lawnmowers are secure.....THEN go after the fraud cases. Nice work, but I fear that this is just the tip of the iceberg. Too bad that those who we entrust with this money can not be trusted.
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Old 09-16-2007, 02:23 AM
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Default RE: Dissatisfaction with the AMA

Pig-
maybe if they flew more 1/2A they'd be a better class of folks
049 cures what ails ya
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Old 09-16-2007, 04:23 AM
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Default RE: Dissatisfaction with the AMA

The AMA is beyond dead. An insurance company will come along, recognize the model airplane business for what it is: Insurance. All it takes is one forward thinking insurance company and the AMA house of cards comes tumbling down. The only thing worth keeping is the competitive records and governing rules of competition. Businesses will come along and vie for this role.
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Old 09-16-2007, 06:29 AM
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Yesterday, I was watching the new Extreme Flight 10cc Yak and I realized that I am glad that I have the . If it weren't for the AMA, many flight sites wouldn't be around, much less events.


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Old 09-16-2007, 10:24 AM
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Default RE: Dissatisfaction with the AMA


ORIGINAL: Blue_Sky

The AMA is beyond dead. An insurance company will come along, recognize the model airplane business for what it is: Insurance. All it takes is one forward thinking insurance company and the AMA house of cards comes tumbling down. The only thing worth keeping is the competitive records and governing rules of competition. Businesses will come along and vie for this role.

And then we can have endless threads about "THAT" company and how they are a monopoly and it isn't right and how some "Other" company should come along and.........

What I wonder is why this is going to happen now and why it has not happened over the last 50+ years that the AMA has been around?? Model airplane insurance is now suddenly a lucrative business??
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Old 09-16-2007, 10:54 AM
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Let's also not forget that there were a few companies that bid for AMA's insurance business last go around. If it was that simple then any one of those insurance companies could snatch away AMA's business with nothing more then undercutting AMA's rate, which they could do by more then half of the AMA's current rate, with ease. Heck if you want flying insurance there is a way for a private club with say 50 members to acquire better insurance then the AMA offers for a cheaper price and some clubs out there do such a thing.

The AMA has 160,000 members because of the remainder of the benefits that insurance companies can't offer like a magazine and many other included benefits. Plus the fact you are a member of an organization, that alone is a huge impact. To actually believe that the AMA members only join the AMA for the insurance, well sorry to say, it's just not true. Call The Hartford and get your group rate, you'll be amazingly surprised as to what they charge.
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