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Punishment for fraudulent AMA grants

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Old 09-13-2007, 07:57 AM
  #1  
JUGFLIER
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Default Punishment for fraudulent AMA grants

I posted the question for the candidates, about what should be the punishment of those who are at the least dishonest when it comes to AMA grants. What say you guys?

Should the person's involved be removed from AMA membership?

Should the clubs lose their charter?

Other?
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Old 09-13-2007, 07:59 AM
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Default RE: Punishment for fraudulent AMA grants

Sigh
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Old 09-13-2007, 08:19 AM
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Default RE: Punishment for fraudulent AMA grants

how and why would someone get a grant in a fraudulent manor, and if they did, how would the AMA be able to prove it and what would the cost be?

this is getting really disheartening.
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Old 09-13-2007, 08:34 AM
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Default RE: Punishment for fraudulent AMA grants

Simple. If you look at the not so fine print on a grant application, you typically sign something that state everything on the application is true. Well you know what can happen if it's not true, no explanation needed there well unless you need to know ... fraud.

But once you have that money it's the responsibility of the clubs leadership to spend wisely. But once you have that money, the AMA does not play political intruder. Spend it right, or spend it wrong makes no difference to them, they are not club babysitters. If the club has any kind of leadership, then that leadership takes action. If the club lacks leadership, then I guess it's just their problem. Again just more evidence that people want the AMA to do more then what's expected of them. I would guess that most of your club is comprised of adult men???

Grantors provide grants, they don't run your company. Deal with it. You're certainly not making the AMA look bad, just your club.
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Old 09-13-2007, 08:37 AM
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Default RE: Punishment for fraudulent AMA grants


ORIGINAL: STLPilot

Simple. If you look at the not so fine print on a grant application, you typically sign something that state everything on the application is true. Well you know what can happen if it's not true, no explanation needed there well unless you need to know ... fraud.

But once you have that money it's the responsibility of the clubs leadership to spend wisely. But once you have that money, the AMA does not play political intruder. Spend it right, or spend it wrong makes no difference to them, they are not club babysitters. If the club has any kind of leadership, then that leadership takes action. If the club lacks leadership, then I guess it's just their problem. Again just more evidence that people want the AMA to do more then what's expected of them. I would guess that most of your club is comprised of adult men???

Grantors provide grants, they don't run your company. Deal with it. You're certainly not making the AMA look bad, just your club.

i am not trying to make the AMA look bad. I just want them to modify the program and put teeth into it to punish those who commit fraud.

On another point. If the info is not accurate and they used the US Post office, a filing of mail fraud would get the investigation done by the Feds. Its called fraud by the US Mail.
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Old 09-13-2007, 08:45 AM
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Default RE: Punishment for fraudulent AMA grants

ORIGINAL: STLPilot
i am not trying to make the AMA look bad. I just want them to modify the program and put teeth into it to punish those who commit fraud.

On another point. If the info is not accurate and they used the US Post office, a filing of mail fraud would get the investigation done by the Feds. Its called fraud by the US Mail.
OMG I can't believe what I'm reading here. This is not for the AMA, this is for local, state or federal authorities to deal with. Have you ever heard of conflict of interests before? You think it would be wise for the AMA to be criminally involved within it's own organization? Yeah that would be really smart of them.

Your problem is not the AMA, the problem is a local chapter of the AMA. All you are doing is putting a big spotlight on how foolish that particular club looks ... in public. They need to be the men they are supposed to be and deal with it through the proper channels.
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Old 09-13-2007, 08:48 AM
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Default RE: Punishment for fraudulent AMA grants

Quit trying to scare us Curtis. We have submitted all of the paper work to the AMA that you caused us to submit. They saw no wrong doing on our part. Please just let it go and move on. You are trying to goad everyone into a fight again here on RCU and we have moved beyond this sort of junk. Everyone here knows our club's past with you so please just move on with your own club's future instead of staying stuck in the past. It has been almost 2 years.
Have a good day!!
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Old 09-13-2007, 09:00 AM
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ORIGINAL: ldelbert

Quit trying to scare us Curtis. We have submitted all of the paper work to the AMA that you caused us to submit. They saw no wrong doing on our part. Please just let it go and move on. You are trying to goad everyone into a fight again here on RCU and we have moved beyond this sort of junk. Everyone here knows our club's past with you so please just move on with your own club's future instead of staying stuck in the past. It has been almost 2 years.
Have a good day!!

Louis,
Would you care to tell me the date you sent in the report? I actually happen to have an e-mail that says you didn't.
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Old 09-13-2007, 09:00 AM
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Default RE: Punishment for fraudulent AMA grants

Sorry ldelbert, I should have known. Another disgruntled member who probably wants to be president, just not do the work involved that goes along. Obviously he didn't do his homework on knowing the ramifications of what would have happened if a grantor tried to punish a grantee for not spending their money wisely.
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Old 09-13-2007, 09:08 AM
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Default RE: Punishment for fraudulent AMA grants


ORIGINAL: STLPilot

Sorry ldelbert, I should have known. Another disgruntled member who probably wants to be president, just not do the work involved that goes along. Obviously he didn't do his homework on knowing the ramifications of what would have happened if a grantor tried to punish a grantee for not spending their money wisely.

STL, It is obvious that you and i are not cut from the same mold. I am not a disgruntled member. I quit and others did too and we started a new club and ours is surpassing theirs quickly.
I did not start this thread to argue about my past with this club. The purpose of this thread is to let our voice be heard when the AMA disburses monies we paid in with no accountability. If thgis was our government we would be screaming for an investigation. All i am asking is that in the future, the AMA put some teeth into its program to punish fraud.

Now back to the original questions.

Should the AMA revoke memberships?

Should the AMA pull club charters?

Other? ie Do nothing.
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Old 09-13-2007, 09:18 AM
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Default RE: Punishment for fraudulent AMA grants

I did not start this thread to argue about my past with this club. The purpose of this thread is to let our voice be heard when the AMA disburses monies we paid in with no accountability. If thgis was our government we would be screaming for an investigation. All i am asking is that in the future, the AMA put some teeth into its program to punish fraud.
Sorry Jug, you really need to do your homework on grants, your way off on your perspective. Also in regards to this particular situation Google "self-policing conflict of interests". Enjoy your reading, there's plenty of chatter about it. This is exactly what you are talking about in regards to this particular situation.

Oh and when you start reading up on grants, you'll be really surprised what you find there too, really surprised.
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Old 09-13-2007, 09:19 AM
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Default RE: Punishment for fraudulent AMA grants

I think STLPilot and Jon Casey would get along great.....
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Old 09-13-2007, 09:19 AM
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Default RE: Punishment for fraudulent AMA grants

In my experience the AMA will only get involved in the politics of a local club for one of three reasons:

1 - violation of civil right, like denying membership due to race, color, creed, etc.

2 - Overt safety issues that expose AMA to liability or endanger others

3 - Situations where the actions of the club would bring harm to the AMA, its members, or aeromodeling in general

In fact, I have not seen the AMA gt directly involved very often at all. At the National level they tend to take a hands off attitude towards clubs.

And I read the post by Curtis, and like it or not, the AMA is not in the business of policing the actions of clubs and they have no mechanism to investigate or "punish" anyone in this type of situation.
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Old 09-13-2007, 09:26 AM
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Default RE: Punishment for fraudulent AMA grants

Silent,
Then you are saying that a club can lie in a grant to get money from AMA and then if the AMA investigates whether or not the club or its officers lied that is an internal club issue?
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Old 09-13-2007, 09:32 AM
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Default RE: Punishment for fraudulent AMA grants


ORIGINAL: JUGFLIER

Silent,
Then you are saying that a club can lie in a grant to get money from AMA and then if the AMA investigates whether or not the club or its officers lied that is an internal club issue?
Depends, did they lie before or after they received the grant money?
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Old 09-13-2007, 09:52 AM
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Default RE: Punishment for fraudulent AMA grants

ORIGINAL: JUGFLIER

Silent,
Then you are saying that a club can lie in a grant to get money from AMA and then if the AMA investigates whether or not the club or its officers lied that is an internal club issue?
Well, I don't see that I wrote that. It seems you have a personal issue with this club and are trying to use this 2-year old matter to raise a stink. Jay Mealy gave you an answer, one you clearly did not like, but there it is.

What I wrote was based on my personal experience and involvement with club issues and also conversations with my VP. As you were informed, AMA has not actual mechanism to as you say "investigate" these matters. Beyond that, there is no existing mechanism to "punish" anyone.

If in fact fraud was committed, that is a legal matter. But it seems to me more that you are just unhappy with how the club conducted its business, and yes, THAT is an internal club matter.

I outlined the three circumstances where the AMA would likely get involved in club operations and it is hard to wee where your situation fits.
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Old 09-13-2007, 10:00 AM
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ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R

ORIGINAL: JUGFLIER

Silent,
Then you are saying that a club can lie in a grant to get money from AMA and then if the AMA investigates whether or not the club or its officers lied that is an internal club issue?
Well, I don't see that I wrote that. It seems you have a personal issue with this club and are trying to use this 2-year old matter to raise a stink. Jay Mealy gave you an answer, one you clearly did not like, but there it is.

What I wrote was based on my personal experience and involvement with club issues and also conversations with my VP. As you were informed, AMA has not actual mechanism to as you say "investigate" these matters. Beyond that, there is no existing mechanism to "punish" anyone.

If in fact fraud was committed, that is a legal matter. But it seems to me more that you are just unhappy with how the club conducted its business, and yes, THAT is an internal club matter.

I outlined the three circumstances where the AMA would likely get involved in club operations and it is hard to see where your situation fits.

O.K. Silent,
Now you are coming to the point of my question. Should the AMA develope a "mechanism" to punish people who defraud AMA thru the grant program?

Should those punishments include suspension or revokation of membership?

Should those punishments include revokation of club charters?

Should the AMA continue to do nothing and insure the fraud continues?
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Old 09-13-2007, 10:08 AM
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Default RE: Punishment for fraudulent AMA grants

ok, would the folks that are not Jug stop raising one particular instance of history as the base of Jugs topic!
He has not brought up any particular club's past doings... you guys are!
Leave the conversation in the future tense, and generic.... as the OP put it.

Should the AMA grow teeth in to the Grant Policy/Procedure,
or should the AMA let anybody get away with anything in the fute of grants.

(see, nobody's name & nobodys club in the future, just grants and hypothetical future frauds)

YES!
there should be recourse for the AMA to recover / administer punative actions against, fraudulent grants/applications.
Expulsion from AMA might be an option, but for who? Officers? Signatories? The casual flyer that had no idea or power in the club?
Revoking Charter might be apropriate, but then wouldnt 5 non-officers just reform a 'new' club right there with a new name?

What teth could the AMA have other than recovering funds?
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Old 09-13-2007, 10:16 AM
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ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

ok, would the folks that are not Jug stop raising one particular instance of history as the base of Jugs topic!
He has not brought up any particular club's past doings... you guys are!
Leave the conversation in the future tense, and generic.... as the OP put it.

Should the AMA grow teeth in to the Grant Policy/Procedure,
or should the AMA let anybody get away with anything in the fute of grants.

(see, nobody's name & nobodys club in the future, just grants and hypothetical future frauds)

YES!
there should be recourse for the AMA to recover / administer punative actions against, fraudulent grants/applications.
Expulsion from AMA might be an option, but for who? Officers? Signatories? The casual flyer that had no idea or power in the club?
Revoking Charter might be apropriate, but then wouldnt 5 non-officers just reform a 'new' club right there with a new name?

What teth could the AMA have other than recovering funds?

I knew when the adults began so show up we would have a mature and rational discussion of this topic.
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Old 09-13-2007, 10:46 AM
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Default RE: Punishment for fraudulent AMA grants


ORIGINAL: JUGFLIER
I knew when the adults began so show up we would have a mature and rational discussion of this topic.
Whose not being rational? Obviously the AMA has taken a position and from what I can see, it's the right one. The problem is that you just don't agree with others answers, so by default, you've label them as the children, so who is the one being irrational?

If the AMA used their teeth to recover funds, then you are basically talking about a lawsuit. I mean what other path do you take, by asking for it back? But before you can have this civil lawsuit you must prove criminally that the persons who tried to acquire the funds did so by committing a criminal act, known as fraud. It is illegal to defraud for a grant. But the big problem you have is the same reason why I told you to look up conflict of interest.

The best method the AMA can prevent fraud exists before the money is dispersed by tightening up their grant approval provisions. But to go after a sub chapter of their own organization, directly, is very dangerous.
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Old 09-13-2007, 10:52 AM
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:17 AM
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Default RE: Punishment for fraudulent AMA grants

Is there a pattern here? Seems at least two of the prominent pontificating posters have had trouble with clubs on the local level. [:'(] One has to ask, has there really been fraud by a club in their grant application or how they used grant money or is this just an individual's warped perception?[sm=bananahead.gif]
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:18 AM
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Default RE: Punishment for fraudulent AMA grants


ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R

In my experience the AMA will only get involved in the politics of a local club for one of three reasons:

1 - violation of civil right, like denying membership due to race, color, creed, etc.

2 - Overt safety issues that expose AMA to liability or endanger others

3 - Situations where the actions of the club would bring harm to the AMA, its members, or aeromodeling in general

In fact, I have not seen the AMA gt directly involved very often at all. At the National level they tend to take a hands off attitude towards clubs.

And I read the post by Curtis, and like it or not, the AMA is not in the business of policing the actions of clubs and they have no mechanism to investigate or "punish" anyone in this type of situation.

SA,

Your perception of reality differs greatly from most others. I think a #3 would be within the realm of possibilities.


I don’t think Jug is talking about club politics. I think he is talking about when a chartered club deceptively acquires monetarily benefits from a grant given them by the parent non-profit organization known as the AMA.

I find STL’s position despicable to say the least…basically he seems to suggest if you can get the money by whatever means then it is just fine.

It seems that Jug raises a fair question and we all, as taxpayers and AMA members should be concerned when or if such things take place as it appears to have in the case others brought into light within this thread.

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Old 09-13-2007, 11:25 AM
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Default RE: Punishment for fraudulent AMA grants

Ok guys, I need to step in here for a moment. This thread was started talking about a "hypothetical" situation, and what the AMA would do in that situation. If this thread turns personal and it comes down to a member trying to get "even" with a club then I will shut this thread down. Let's keep the discussion talking about what the AMA would do in a given situation, and leave any "real" past events in the past. This forum is not the proper venue to hash out past history like that.

Thanks for keeping the discussion on topic.

Ken
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:26 AM
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Default RE: Punishment for fraudulent AMA grants


ORIGINAL: Red Scholefield

Is there a pattern here? Seems at least two of the prominent pontificating posters have had trouble with clubs on the local level. [:'(] One has to ask, has there really been fraud by a club in their grant application or how they used grant money or is this just an individual's warped perception?[sm=bananahead.gif]
Then there is your incessant pontification that means nothing over and over and over and over and over and over again. You make no valid point here but continue to infer things you have no knowledge of. Go charge a battery or something.
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