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Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly

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Old 09-17-2007, 01:19 PM
  #1  
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Default Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly

This is not a question of do they now or dont they now,
Should the AMA, as promoting all aspects of model aviation, promote chartered clubs to allow folks with alternate but adequate insurance to fly at their sites.

We all know the PDFs the ama has that scare clubs off of this,
should the AMA drop the scare tactic and start to encourage non-AMA flyers to fly at AMA club fields,
getting more folks safely flying in America, promoting model aviation in general,
rather than promoting model aviation only by joining AMA.

STL just said The Hartford is doleing out RC insurance for $16,
should folks with that insurance be barred from clubfields or invited.
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Old 09-17-2007, 01:38 PM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly

ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

This is not a question of do they now or dont they now,
Should the AMA, as promoting all aspects of model aviation, promote chartered clubs to allow folks with alternate but adequate insurance to fly at their sites.

We all know the PDFs the ama has that scare clubs off of this,
should the AMA drop the scare tactic and start to encourage non-AMA flyers to fly at AMA club fields,
getting more folks safely flying in America, promoting model aviation in general,STL just said The Hartford is doleing out RC insurance for $16,
should folks with that insurance be barred from clubfields or invited.

rather than promoting model aviation only by joining AMA.

I mean your buddy LCS, even claimed he belong(ed)(s) to a club which utilizes private insurance some time ago. Frankly I'm surprised your just learning now that you REALLY CAN get insurance elsewhere. I mean how many times did we talk about this before? And where are these scare tactics? I thought you Texans slept with guns under your pillows at nite? You good ol boys seem to scare pretty easy. It's not scare tactic, it's the idiot (not aimed at you) who doesn't even know they can pick up a phone and make a simple call to insurance company and just ask for an insurance quote.

Oh and one other thing, where does it say AMA members cannot fly at an AMA members site? You have to be a member of the AMA ONLY to particpate in membership based activities only. Oh and plus the fact that it's ok for club who utilize AMA insurance allow other clubs without AMA insurance to co-exist on the same site. The club and site owners make ALL the decisions in regards to the club, including whether or not to allow people with insurance to fly at their site, it has nothing to do with AMA.

Tell me KE, do you belong to any other organizations? Do you fly real planes? Scuba dive? Shoot guns? MX? Play any sports? Do you have any other hobbies by chance?? I'm just wondering.
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Old 09-17-2007, 01:50 PM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly


ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy


Should the AMA, as promoting all aspects of model aviation, promote chartered clubs to allow folks with alternate but adequate insurance to fly at their sites.

No.
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Old 09-17-2007, 02:19 PM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly

STL
no kidding Insurance companies sell insurance. That is not news to me.
I was putting out the dollar amount you just gave in the other thread.

Thanx for somehow reading the first post and yet feel compelled to argue absolutely what I defined the thread not to be about in the first sentance of the first post. It took all of the first reply for you to somehow bring up Texas, guns, and my persoanl life. Excuse me, I have a mod I think I'm gonna bring in to evaluate your post for relavancy to thread topic.


P51-
Thanx, at least you stayed on topic.
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Old 09-17-2007, 02:27 PM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly

KidEpoxy did clarify the information that he wants to discuss here in the thread. Please keep the discussion within those guidelines. I also ask that the discussion stay within the topic and leave personal attacks out of the discussion. Where a person from really doesn't enter into it from what I can see.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Ken
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Old 09-17-2007, 02:41 PM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly

Kid,

That would depend on how the by-laws of the club were set up in their charter. If the requirement for AMA membership was in the original charter, the AMA might have an issue with a non AMA member being allowed to fly. I understand your question, though, but I can't see the AMA promoting this. The AMA is after membership, and I really don't think that they care how they get it. So if someone wants to fly, I think that they will continue to require that the AMA chartered clubs that had the requirement in their application for charter, continue that requirement.

Bill, AMA 4720
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Old 09-17-2007, 03:10 PM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly

http://www.modelaircraft.org/programs/rcfi.aspx

I know it's a tad off subject but here is a list of providers that don't have AMA insurance or endorsed by the AMA at all. Funny but don't you think they could have just promoted their own branded "AMA Intro Pilot Program" on that page instead of just trying to promote other commercial ventures in it's place?

Let me guess another conspiracy, these commercial ventures are coerced by the AMA to send them their customers towards the AMA in return for the free advertising? Or perhaps the AMA is just prolly trying to promote aeromodeling as a whole and hope to get the residual business??? You pick the conspiracy, I'll choose the latter of the 2.

Sorry if this is too far off from your instructions, just proving a point that the AMA is not just in this for their own self satisfaction.

Continue with your rant.
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Old 09-17-2007, 03:57 PM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly

yes they should allow non members to fly maybe we'll get more people to eventually join. of course letting someone fly for the rest of their lives would be ridiculous, but give them time (60 days) to get the bug and then they'll see what their missing and join ama along with a local club, there-fore more money for the already 60 million dollar ama campain. money rules end of story
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Old 09-17-2007, 07:22 PM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly

ORIGINAL: LANNYBOB

yes they should allow non members to fly maybe we'll get more people to eventually join. of course letting someone fly for the rest of their lives would be ridiculous, but give them time (60 days) to get the bug and then they'll see what their missing and join ama along with a local club, there-fore more money for the already 60 million dollar ama campain. money rules end of story
How would they handle the liability insurance part of that plan? How would they know how long that the prospect had been flying at the AMA insured and chartered field? I see room for a lot of abuse here.

Bill, AMA 4720
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Old 09-17-2007, 07:46 PM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

ORIGINAL: LANNYBOB

yes they should allow non members to fly maybe we'll get more people to eventually join. of course letting someone fly for the rest of their lives would be ridiculous, but give them time (60 days) to get the bug and then they'll see what their missing and join ama along with a local club, there-fore more money for the already 60 million dollar ama campain. money rules end of story
How would they handle the liability insurance part of that plan? How would they know how long that the prospect had been flying at the AMA insured and chartered field? I see room for a lot of abuse here.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
Bulldog Brotherhood #85
The program already exists.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/PDF-files/917.pdf

Oh yeah that program for non AMA members. Not only will they not need alternate, but adequate insurance, the AMA flicks the bill on the liability to boot.
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Old 09-17-2007, 07:47 PM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly


ORIGINAL: P-51B
ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy
Should the AMA, as promoting all aspects of model aviation, promote chartered clubs to allow folks with alternate but adequate insurance to fly at their sites.
No.
I think I'm with P-51B on this one, and I have a different view from a separate post's comment about letting Non-AMA folks fly to increase the likelihood that the club will grow.

I've observed that people who want to fly, will find a place to fly, despite the obstacles. These people make great club members. Those who are pulled into the hobby by friends or through some demonstration event, often make only sporadic appearances. That's okay, too, but: We go out and rent & maintain a field, and it's an effort. After making that effort, I submit that the people most valuable to the club will share that effort and expense. Do we really need to solicit those who aren't willing to put out the effort up front? I'm not seeing value in that.

Best wishes,
Dave Olson
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Old 09-17-2007, 08:19 PM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly

"Should we allow non-AMA members to fly at AMA chartered fields?"

NO! NADA! NYET!
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Old 09-17-2007, 08:43 PM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly

So tell us how you REALLY feel gunfighter
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Old 09-17-2007, 09:50 PM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly

ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

//snip//
Should the AMA, as promoting all aspects of model aviation, promote chartered clubs to allow folks with alternate but adequate insurance to fly at their sites.

We all know the PDFs the ama has that scare clubs off of this,
should the AMA drop the scare tactic and start to encourage non-AMA flyers to fly at AMA club fields,
getting more folks safely flying in America, promoting model aviation in general,
rather than promoting model aviation only by joining AMA.

//snip//
KidEpoxy;

Your first question: Absolutely NOT!

First: Recognize the Charter Club Membership requirements:

AMA Bylaws, Article III, Section 2

Section 2. The Chartered Club is the local division of the AMA. It is the
vehicle for recognition of any geographic grouping of AMA members.
(a) The Charter provides the local organized group with added
insurance protection for the club, the club officers, and flying site
owners
. Other services such as assistance in acquisition and retention of
flying sites, materials for public relations, and legal counsel, when
necessary are available to the Charter Club.
(b) All members of the Chartered Club, including officers, must be
members of the AMA
(except Associate members who are not officers,
defined as a wife, husband, child, or parent of an active club member
who does not operate models as part of the club activity); such member
must be listed on the Charter as an associate.

Second: AMA has a plan in existence for those clubs that do not have control of the sites which the specific Chartered Club is using. That plan basically keeps the club as a separate entity.

Third: It is a given that when any member to member accident happens causing injury to one AMA person, then it appears that AMA is defending the unhurt individual. In reality the injured party has a right to pursue, through the normal court system, reparations for his/her injury. Those reparations may come from the defendant's personal funds, personal insurance, or lastly the AMA liability insurance.

Fourth: Personally I do not fly at NON-AMA sites where others may be flying. As a member of 3 AMA Chartered Clubs, I do not in any manner support the debasement of the AMA Charter Club to the level that non-AMA members have a right to share those facilities where the Charter Club DOES have the control of demanding that all fliers have the basic AMA insurance coverage in force, which they do have if they have a current membership card.
A.) There is no way to know if a non-AMA member has CURRENT insurance in force or not.
B.) Any person, IMO, involved in serious model aircraft operations should have adequate character of responsibility to fund $58 to provide his fellow fliers reasonable coverage should he be so unfortunate to cause them personal injury.
C.) I have no desire to have to check each day if Joe Blow has personal funds or current liability insurance should he injure me or mine. Therefore the answer to your question is so stated above. ABSOLUTELY NOT.
D.) AMA cannot in any manner mandate to a club that such club has to allow non-AMA persons to join the club (against Bylaws and the leader members will not allow that to change) and if such did happen, then goodbye AMA and their entire Chartered Club program. The property owners will no longer respect the AMA property-owner's insurance if non-covered individuals are also involved. That is total dilution.

In addition, AMA Chartered Clubs are the backbone of model aviation activity. Those that want to are usually welcome to join. Those that don't care to participate are welcome to go forth and organize/associate with non-AMA units as they so wish. Those that organize Chartered Clubs, obtain flying facilities, maintain facilities, administrate Chartered Clubs, and do all the work, do not owe one item to those seeking free handouts.

Edited to change a word better suited to RCU practice.
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Old 09-17-2007, 10:46 PM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly

I say yes because that would help to break up the AMA monoply in this country,
also as far as to who is and is not covered i dont worry about that to much
because every time you get in your car you are on the road with a bunch of
uninsured drivers and you have no way to know who is and is not insured.

The main thing is to make sure you have own insurance in place to cover you
should something happen.

Also I might add in a perfect world everyone would carry plenty of insurance and the
net effect should be lower insurance rates for everyone but we dont live in a perfect
world so thats the way it is. Also just because one is a AMA member is no guarantee
that what ever damage they cause will be covered.
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Old 09-17-2007, 10:48 PM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly

"Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly"

sure. I think non AMA sites usually welcome AMA members.

As for as the insurance argument goes...buy what you need. Don't rely on others to cover your needs. If your life, health, money or property is worth something, by all means insure it.


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Old 09-17-2007, 11:01 PM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly

ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

This is not a question of do they now or dont they now,
Should the AMA, as promoting all aspects of model aviation, promote chartered clubs to allow folks with alternate but adequate insurance to fly at their sites.
I think you mean should we allow folks with alternate but adequate insurance fly at our sites.
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Old 09-18-2007, 12:40 AM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly


ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

This is not a question of do they now or dont they now,
Should the AMA, as promoting all aspects of model aviation, promote chartered clubs to allow folks with alternate but adequate insurance to fly at their sites.

We all know the PDFs the ama has that scare clubs off of this,
should the AMA drop the scare tactic and start to encourage non-AMA flyers to fly at AMA club fields,
getting more folks safely flying in America, promoting model aviation in general,
rather than promoting model aviation only by joining AMA.

STL just said The Hartford is doleing out RC insurance for $16,
should folks with that insurance be barred from clubfields or invited.
Kid-

It sure seems like it would be a sensible way for AMA to do business if AMA club sites didn't have to show visitors to the AMA toll booth before welcoming them in. There are a lot of potential AMA members out there that just don't want to buy a pig in a poke. Heck, this RCU site has more than twice the members that AMA has, and they don't even sell insurance. That should serve as some subjective measure of the potential AMA has for growth.

Our club sites are not AMA club sites. There is only one AMA site. Most of our clubs buy insurance for owners of our sites from AMA. There is very little incentive for clubs to charter with AMA for any reason other than to buy insurance from AMA. Clubs should decide who flys at club sites, not the insurance provider.

Many individuals and clubs would if they could promote model aviation first, and AMA secondarily, though they appreciate having AMA to facilitate that by providing insurance for site owners that might otherwise not allow use of their property. AMA promotes AMA first and the promise enjoyment of model aviation is the carrot that causes some to join AMA.

AMA's strategy of drafting potential modelers into the organization as a precondition for enjoyment of modeling is and has been been failing for years. Membership numbers are stagnant, and the only visible growth is taking place outside of AMA clubs and AMA's general sphere of influence. Park flying is where model aviation is growing. AMA has been getting ready to get ready to cash on this phenomenon for at least a decade, and still doesn't have anything resembling a business plan to exploit that market. Part of the problem is that is the only only objective that ever that ever gets mention - rarely how AMA can promote model aviation by fostering park flying. The same old policies like the once-in-lifetime-only buddy box flight are entrenched and embraced by the AMA powers that be as if they were brought down from the mountain by Moses. Mathewson and a couple of others tried to loosen the stranglehold on clubs a bit with a streamlining of the Intro Pilot program, but some Muncie meathead with nothing but $$$ signs in sight put a $5 per head levy on each Intro Pilot enrolled by the clubs. None of the clubs I associate with have bought into the concept of having to pay a head tax per recruiter for AMA and I understand that, but the marketing gurus at AMA are on some higher plane of thought.

Excuse me for running on - KE, I think clubs should be allowed by AMA to allow folks with alternate insurance to to fly at their club sites, or allow folks without insurance to fly at the risk of their club member host and PIC, i.e., on a buddy box. How long non-club, non-AMA members should be allowed to use club facilities should be at the discretion of the club, not AMA. Give the clubs a chance to promote model aviation, and AMA will benefit in spite of themselves.

Abel

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Old 09-18-2007, 04:19 AM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly

Seems like he's setting us all up for his rebuttal because not 1 person, including myself addressed his first post the way he wanted it. He knows it's not up to the AMA to determine who can and cannot fly at a chartered club's site. We all know that more then 1 club can co-exist on the same site, with or without insurance. And if your an AMA club, your certainly allowed to let non AMA flyers come and fly anytime they want, just not participate in club ACTIVITIES and POLITICS but of course they can fly till their fingers bleed. And since the AMA does allow all of this open door policy, that in itself IS A promotion.

But I think what KE wants the AMA to, correct me if I'm wrong, is actually PROMOTE and to encourage non members to fly at these sites. Well they already do with the intro pilot program and their open door policy seems to be ok. But if he's looking for the AMA to actually ?spend money? to do any kind of promotion...well this coming from the same guy who doesn't even want the AMA members to absorb the costs of the so called running deficit on MA. He'd rather us have our rates raised for this so called non AMA member program, then to prolly get rid of the magazine.

And I don't believe for a second KE that you think this so called idea is for the residual effects for potential AMA membership. I believe it's for the same reason you've rowled up certain individuals like IraD posted, that's the kind of post you were looking for. But don't expect a lot more of them, expect this thread to be closed, prolly pretty soon instead.
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Old 09-18-2007, 05:09 AM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly

One needs to understand who the AMA is;

1) A member supported organisation. Without dues paying members, it goes away. Why would you create your own demise?

2) When a non-AMA person flies at a Chartered club site, he is jeopardising the club and its officers. A club charter with the AMA affords some protection to the club officers.
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Old 09-18-2007, 05:10 AM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly

Gee, that's funny, I belong to an AMA chartered club and we let Non AMA ers fly there all the time.. With an Intro pilot, just the way it was set up to do.

Our club is on city property, we cannot discriminate because of member ship IF he non AMA er can produce a policy protecting the City for 1Mil which is what the club gets through the AMA.

Since AMA is secondary to your home owners, each of us is in essence letting non ama insured indivicuals fly at our fields. AMA insurance is only an issue if the primary liablity insurer takes adive.
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Old 09-18-2007, 08:34 AM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly

It's easier to be generous when your field is on public land, especially if it is maintained by the parks and recreation department. That is what we have at Marymoore Park, just lay your AMA card down, grab a pin and take your Cermark F-16 up on your very first ever RC flight with no instructor.
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Old 09-18-2007, 08:35 AM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly


ORIGINAL: ira d

I say yes because that would help to break up the AMA monoply in this country,
While I disagree that AMA is a monopoly, the best way to break it up (if it existed) is for Ira D to start another organization to compete with the AMA. Offer better benefits at lower cost while maintaining service.

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Old 09-18-2007, 08:38 AM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly

I have visited sites that are not club owned or controlled, and are owned by the local government. There is generally a rule at those sites that flyers must be AMA to fly there, no doubt for the insurance protection. While visiting those sites, I have seen people flying that open profess they are NOT AMA members. Nobody is enforcing the rule.

Unfortunately, at those same fields, I have witnessed some of the most unsafe flying and handling practices. Apparently the AMA membership rule is not the only rule not being enforced. Flights over the pit areas, parking lots, people standing on the runway while others are taking off or landing, no channel control, disrespect for other flyers...the list goes on.

At those sites that are local club controlled, where the AMA and other safety rules are respected and enforced, its a completely different story.

Should non-AMA members be allowed to fly at club sites? Completely a club decision. But at my club, it only happens under the current rules for introductory flight. If after 60 days of training an individual doesn't have enough desire to join our club (which means joining AMA), they're not likely to be much of a contributor to the club anyway.

Brad
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:38 AM
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Default RE: Should AMA clubs allow non-AMA to fly


ORIGINAL: P-51B


ORIGINAL: ira d

I say yes because that would help to break up the AMA monoply in this country,
While I disagree that AMA is a monopoly, the best way to break it up (if it existed) is for Ira D to start another organization to compete with the AMA. Offer better benefits at lower cost while maintaining service.


No can do it wont work because the AMA is a monopoly and if I started
another organization we would have very few places to fly.
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