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Extra-AMA Modeling

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Old 10-09-2007, 12:47 AM
  #1  
abel_pranger
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Default Extra-AMA Modeling

Modeling can and does exist outside of AMA aegis, and it isn't just for park fliers. Here is a [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jXwA8eP5u0]blog site [/link] with some coverage of the flight of a 50% scale model of a Star Wars X-wing fighter that was among the several hundred that flew at an event I attended this past weekend. It wasn't the most successful flight of the event by any means, but a beautiful effort nonetheless. BTW, the national organization these folks belong to has dealt with the most intense scrutiny by Fed agencies like Homeland Security, FAA, and BATF, and the event site is on BLM land. Yet there are no speed limits except for those imposed by physics of transonic flight, no weight limits except for the available energy of the motor(s), no altitude limits that cannot be waived.
Freedom isn't free, but it can still be had by those with sufficient will to have it.

Abel
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Old 10-09-2007, 03:00 AM
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Default RE: Extra-AMA Modeling

Thanks Abel! How refreshing. I needed that! I thought them rocket guys were more geeky and wussy than airplane guys...I guess I was wrong. A real blast.
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Old 10-09-2007, 03:29 AM
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Default RE: Extra-AMA Modeling

Ahh, BLM
The Land That Law Forgot.
May we always have that last refuge for the hazzardous & loud.

Well, in retrospect, the Xwing didnt exceed AC91-57 & AMA 400' limits.
If they were following proper AMA policy, they wouldnt have had that Maiden at an event,
looked like folks ahead of pilot station (?)
and in general it was forbidden due to the 55lb Waiver thing
, right?

Well, I applaud the effort,
and I hope XWing-II addresse the shortcomings of the first and soars like a... really soary thing.
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Old 10-09-2007, 11:37 AM
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Default RE: Extra-AMA Modeling

ORIGINAL: abel_pranger

Modeling can and does exist outside of AMA aegis, and it isn't just for park fliers.
Yes, Abel, it does. I don't know how many times, in a number of posts, I have made learned references using info. from the many trade sources that evidence active modeling people in this USA outnumber AMA members by at LEAST 100 to one, and I would even predict 1000 to one.

Here is a [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jXwA8eP5u0]blog site [/link] with some coverage of the flight of a 50% scale model of a Star Wars X-wing fighter that was among the several hundred that flew at an event I attended this past weekend. It wasn't the most successful flight of the event by any means, but a beautiful effort nonetheless. BTW, the national organization these folks belong to has dealt with the most intense scrutiny by Fed agencies like Homeland Security, FAA, and BATF, and the event site is on BLM land. Yet there are no speed limits except for those imposed by physics of transonic flight, no weight limits except for the available energy of the motor(s), no altitude limits that cannot be waived.
Does their organization furnish multi-million $$ LIABILITY insurance for these people? Maybe their organization uses the "No-limit, go-for-it, have fun, and learn new things" as their policy. Seems an attractive policy to me.
Freedom isn't free, but it can still be had by those with sufficient will to have it.
Abel
Now there is the catch-all. Bureaucratic associations cannot survive under freedom. OTOH, AMA is showing that one may not survive without allowing freedoms.
AMA survives as well as it does because of two reasons. 1.) the Insurance thing with the Charter Clubs and their requirements that all club members be AMA.
2.) The Competition aspect/side of AMA. Only AMA is established to regulate competition, and whether one likes it or not that is a fact which keeps some 15000 modelers strongly attached to AMA. It would take 20 years for another organization to take that part over.

If people want freedom (so few today have any idea what freedom means) then this allowing incumbents of AMA's Executive Council to run unopposed for reelection has to stop. If I were in a district with such, I would be too ashamed to even look in the mirror.
(OK, so this old ugly face is too ugly to look at anyway, but is YOURS? )

Edited: rephrase a couple items.
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Old 10-09-2007, 12:19 PM
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Default RE: Extra-AMA Modeling

If people want freedom (so few today have any idea what freedom means) then this allowing incumbents of AMA's Executive Council to run unopposed for reelection has to stop.
Comrade Hossfly,
Heeerd in Deestrict 5 we heer destrurbing things about you. Let me tell you, heerd in deestrict 5 we have vays od dealink vis peeple like you.
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Old 10-09-2007, 12:27 PM
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Default RE: Extra-AMA Modeling

Well "FREE" is a relative term. I held a level one tickeet on the rocket side which allowed me to purchase and fly up to an I engine.
The stuff you see in rocketry starts at a 1/2 A engine and goes up to a G engine. No certificate needed to buy these engines. Then if you want to go bigger you have to join NAR and succesfully build and fly a rocket that houses an H or an I motor. The rocket simply has to land safely and be ready to go back into the air with no repairs and you have your ticket. These launches cost about $30.00 up to about $40.00 per flight and thats the main reason I got out of it.
Then if you want to go bigger then that you have to take a test and succesfully fly a rocket that will hold a J, K or L engine. These launches can cost upwards of $80.00 per launch.
Then you have the big daddys or a level 3 Certificate. On this one you have to build the rocket, document the build with pictures and have a successful flight and pass the test to get your level 3 cert. THis will take engines up to an O I believe and can cost as much as $300.00 per launch.

WHen you join NAR you get insurance that is similar to AMA and there are rules you have to follow, like not launching live animals and other types of things. They do inhibit what you can build the rocket out of and where you can launch to a degree, but its not that bad.

One thing that I noticed is the group of guys doing this sport are far more dedicated to their sport than the RC guys tend to be. We used to have to ravel about 3 times as far to get to a spot where we could launch, it took about 2 hours to set up just to launch, and we had a good group of guys worjing thier butts off doring the whole thing. Not to mention you had to stand up at the table as a launch master and a safety officer for 2 or 3 hours at a time do process all the guys wanting to fly.
Honestly if the clubs I have belonged to had to work that hard to have a day of flying nothing would ever get into the air.
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Old 10-09-2007, 12:33 PM
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Default RE: Extra-AMA Modeling

ORIGINAL: Hossfly


Does their organization furnish multi-million $$ LIABILITY insurance for these people? Maybe their organization uses the "No-limit, go-for-it, have fun, and learn new things" as their policy. Seems an attractive policy to me.
Tripoli home
Hoss-

Follows a cite from the [link=http://www.tripoli.org]Tripoli[/link] web site:

The Tripoli Rocketry Association carries General Liability Insurance covering launch events, meetings, classes, seminars and other Tripoli Sanctioned Events. This policy covers events hosted by a Tripoli Prefecture and the rocketry activities of a member. The policy limit is $1,000,000 per occurrence and the deductible is $2,500. The policy also provides coverage for $25,000 Fire Damage Legal Liability for damage to the property of others used by, rented by, or in the care, custody, or control of the Insured caused by fire or explosion. The coverage provided by this endorsement is included within, and not in addition to, the Limits of Liability applicable to Property Damage Coverage. There is no coverage for medical expenses incurred at the time of accident "regardless of fault." Liability must clearly be established.

The policy runs for each calendar year, (Jan 1 through Dec 31). The policy covers injury and property damage to spectators, innocent bystanders, and Tripoli Members. There is no coverage for Tripoli Members who cause bodily injury or property damage to themselves as a result of their rocketry activities.


The insurance coverage provides coverage to the paid and lifetime members of the Tripoli Rocketry Association for their rocketry related activities. It is worldwide primary coverage. To extend coverage to the landowner where the rocketry related activities are located, a Certificate of Insurance must be applied for. This will add coverage to the landowner as their interests may appear. Our insurance carrier requires this.
Abel

Edited to add link. Check it out - the Nike at the top of the home page flew on Sat. Absolutely majestic flight to 23,000 ft, and even the recovery phase was perfectly executed and jawdropping to behold.
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Old 10-09-2007, 01:01 PM
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Default RE: Extra-AMA Modeling

Libertor-
So without a Cert, mandated membership, or waiver,
a guy could make a huge 100lb or 200lb model powered by a lot (a whole frickin lot) of G size motor clusters?
<who is the patron saint of ThrustAlignment we'd pray to each launch? >

And once a guy got a level I Cert, he can make as many I-motor birds as he wants, right? It is a test of the guy, not the bird.... if I understand your post correctly.


I would join up with rocket folk, but I'm waiting for them to get a cheaper electric park rocket club tier.
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Old 10-09-2007, 03:52 PM
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Default RE: Extra-AMA Modeling

Since this has been on TV, the Discovery Channel I think, and watched by millions, they are not unknown by the public or the government. They are regulated to a certain degree and they do have restrictions because they have time frames that the high altitude stuff can be shot and when they cannot. Why do folks just have to grind the AMA when they provide a service and for the vast majority, provide a very good service.

AMA is not perfect, but who is? In the framework we have, how do we do what many here (this specific forum) want to do with out near destroying the AMA to accomplish what a slim minority want done?

One other point, someone said that the rocketeers seem more dedicated. Well, when you can blow up the block, your house, your neighborhood, county, or you, you do have to maintain a fairly high level precision I would guess.
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Old 10-09-2007, 11:21 PM
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Default RE: Extra-AMA Modeling


ORIGINAL: OVSS Boss
//SNIP//
One other point, someone said that the rocketeers seem more dedicated. Well, when you can blow up the block, your house, your neighborhood, county, or you, you do have to maintain a fairly high level precision I would guess.
Yep that happens. Back in my old Strategic Air Command days, we were able to do that, like most of a county. [X(] We had to be pretty good as we spent many hours taking tests, both written usually 150 -- 200 questions within a hour or so, and then an hour to 2 hours of tape messages that had to be memorized by format word for word, authenticated within 30 seconds, and decoded within one minute. From there we had to make a target decision. The only allowable score was 100% or probably lose those wings over the left shirt lapel. In 3 years, I only knew one crewmember that made an error and he did just as described. However that rockety seems like real tough stuff. [:-]

Now back to modeling outside AMA: Look at this -- http://www.downonthedeck.com/ -- for their Houston area event this weekend.
Notice that while all pilots have to be AMA, I cannot find any AMA Sanction displayed there or in the Dist. VIII web site where sanctions usually show up before AMA gets the application. "Chief" is really good with those things.
I am wondering just how many "new-member" applications will be taken there this weekend. OTOH, the application can ONLY be "instant member" when a CD takes it at a SANCTIONED event. No sanction, no instant member. [>:] Interesting organization!

Oh well not to worry here as I will be at the Prop-Nuts' Big Bird anyway. Hopefully the NWRCC event will have all thse 'runway-blockers' and we can lazily fly around in slow motion.

BTW, Thanks Abel for the insurance info. Maybe if AMA moved towards the big-spenders with less rules and quit worrying about those that think $58 dues is a lot of money, then perhaps AMA could move out of the doldrums. [sm=greedy.gif]
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Old 10-10-2007, 10:41 AM
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Default RE: Extra-AMA Modeling


ORIGINAL: Hossfly

BTW, Thanks Abel for the insurance info. Maybe if AMA moved towards the big-spenders with less rules and quit worrying about those that think $58 dues is a lot of money, then perhaps AMA could move out of the doldrums. [sm=greedy.gif]
Da nada, Hoss. One thing you didn't ask about but I expect you will be interested in is the official magazine, Rocketry. It is optional, and not supported by member dues. How 'bout that......

Abel
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Old 10-10-2007, 11:47 AM
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Default RE: Extra-AMA Modeling

Abel-
Are they the same kind of Fed 503 <whatever> that AMA is?
If so, what method do they use to do the Publish News to Members whatnot I hear MA is suposed to be covering?
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Old 10-10-2007, 01:22 PM
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ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

Abel-
Are they the same kind of Fed 503 <whatever> that AMA is?
If so, what method do they use to do the Publish News to Members whatnot I hear MA is suposed to be covering?
Kid-

It is a Federally recognized 501(c)(3) non-profit organization. News to members that do not subscribe to the magazine is via a private, members-only online forum (e-mail list). The magazine is published by an independent publisher that submitted the winning proposal in a competitive bidding, as of last Mar, and is not the same publisher of the official organ of Tripoli prior to then. I presume the magazine publisher, with only an arms-length contractual relationship with the association, pays taxes as most of us do.

Abel
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Old 10-10-2007, 02:31 PM
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Default RE: Extra-AMA Modeling

Thanx for the info, glad you could figure out what I was asking for.
Food for thought for AMA'ers, one would think


hmmmm, still pondering the Sub-400' 54lb "G-cluster" rocket at the club field,
shouldnt be too hard to work out wt,thrust,accel,burn&coast to get a 75'-100' altitude flight... but will the chute work at 75', or should we just make it brick-like & noseheavy enough for DesignatedLawnDart mode return.... probably should just stick with chutes.
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Old 10-10-2007, 03:03 PM
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ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

hmmmm, still pondering the Sub-400' 54lb "G-cluster" rocket at the club field,
shouldnt be too hard to work out wt,thrust,accel,burn&coast to get a 75'-100' altitude flight... but will the chute work at 75', or should we just make it brick-like & noseheavy enough for DesignatedLawnDart mode return.... probably should just stick with chutes.
Not sure what AMA rules really mean here, Kid. They say (in the SC) up to G motors can be used, but say nothing about how many can be clustered. The rocketry assns. (NAR and Tripoli) both set limits (depending on size of launch site, waiver altitude, Cert Level, and such) based on total impulse rather than class of motor. Impulse doubles with each step, so two F motors are treated as equal to a G, and so on.
Don't ask AMA the question...........your interpretation is in accord with what a reasonable person could be expected to make.

Abel
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Old 10-10-2007, 03:27 PM
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Default RE: Extra-AMA Modeling

Rocket?
What Rocket?
This is a non-aspirated internal cumbustion VTOL freeflight model aircraft with a high wingloading,
within AC91-57 400' for AMA club use


Anyhoo, fun with rockets aside, there is plenty of Non-AMA modeling going on.
Like that Turbine Thing south of the border.
That is designated No-AMA'ers (by AMA?) right? Means same as non-AMA, or does it?
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Old 10-10-2007, 05:02 PM
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Default RE: Extra-AMA Modeling

Kid,

TO be honest I always wondered that myself. I never did bother to find out simply because at $40.00 per engine the thought of burning up that type of dough in 6 seconds goes against my grain. I did see where a guy succesfully launched a 23 foot rocker with a little over 225 D engines. They used a flash pan ignition where they pour powder into a container that covers all of the engines and is really the only way to reliably get the engines to fires at approx the same time.

TO be honest the launch was pretty lackluster and in all honesty the only one it would endanger would be the guy lighting the pan.

As far as I can tell though it looks like what you said was correct.
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Old 10-10-2007, 05:21 PM
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ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy


This is a non-aspirated internal cumbustion VTOL freeflight model aircraft with a high wingloading,
within AC91-57 400' for AMA club use
There ya go, it's kinda like Slick Willy and what "is" is. Or maybe what a "monopoly" is.

How about [link=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=W-QJLOVLg7M]these[/link] guys, getting in a little indoor flying while carpooling to work (I'm 'hoping' about the carpooling).

Anything afoul of AMA roolze here, being well below the AC91-57 ceiling and all?


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Old 10-10-2007, 06:51 PM
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Default RE: Extra-AMA Modeling

that was.... by far the best sky rocket (bottle rocket) ive ever seen.
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Old 10-10-2007, 06:55 PM
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Default RE: Extra-AMA Modeling

It seems everyone here has the impression that model/amateur rocketry is a freewheeling world where you can do whatever you want without restriction or interference and such.


Take a look at these sites:

http://www.nar.org/

http://www.flyrockets.com/regulations.html

And Hoss already cited the Tripoli web site.

There's more, but the point is that model/amateur rocketry is a hobby that takes safety seriously and is subject to many regulations both from their own organizations and the Federal government. In many respects their world is even more regulated than our hobby.
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Old 10-10-2007, 07:00 PM
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ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R

It seems everyone here has the impression that model/amateur rocketry is a freewheeling world where you can do whatever you want without restriction or interference and such.

???????????

Did you miss the thread you intended to post to?

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Old 10-10-2007, 11:35 PM
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So when we were talking about the Cert process to be level I, that was freewheeling with no restrictions?
I'm confused, how is getting certified to be allowed to do something Freewheeling? And how is staying below the levels a Cert is required Freewheeling Unrestricted?

Rockets weighing less than one pound and flying on less than 4 ounces of propellant, FAR 101 rockets, do not require notification of the FAA. Large Model Rockets, weighing between 1 and 3.3 lbs and flying on not more than 4.4 ounces of propellant, while not requiring a waiver from the FAA, require a phone call to the nearest FAA tower or airport for notification of the planned activity. Model Rockets are also considered toys by the federal government and as such must meet Consumer Product Safety Commissions safety requirements.

Waivers from the FAA are required to fly High Power Rockets weighing more than 3.3lbs and/or flying on greater than 4.4 ounces of propellant. While anyone may apply to the FAA for a waiver, this process is normally handled by a rocketry club officer, often the Launch Director. When granting waivers, the FAA reviews the normal use of the airspace for which a waiver has been requested to determine the feasibility of rerouting airplanes while launches are being held
the FAR 101 ittybitty Freewheeling Dad & Son At Park must drive certain folks nuts.
Imagine people doing things without the government holding their hand / interfering.

Can you believe they have to call an airport.... so unlike busting AC91-57 400' with our planes. They are all about getting the waivers, while we are about pretending 1200' soaring is under the 91-57 400'.

From the second quoted paragraph, seems any fool with a rocket can ask for a 75' rocket flight waiver at a model airplane club that already has the wild west of airspace going on to 400'.

Several things must be made clear. No rocket can have any sort of guidance system, the rocket must point within 20 degrees of straight up and absolutely no animals
remember that ama legal Bell Rocketplane that was launched from a bomber in flight, and was guided to meet the AMA req for shooting rockets from planes? They had it be RC so it would be OK with AMA. Right? So only the forbidden guided rockets are allowed?



But we dont need to focus on rockets.
We have Turbines & StreetFlyers & such to talk about too.
Or HouseOfBalsa Schoolyard Scale planes buzzing ... uh ... schools? That sounds safe.
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Old 11-14-2007, 01:21 PM
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Default RE: Extra-AMA Modeling

El Bumpo

For the [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6499873/mpage_2/tm.htm]Airborne Weaponry [/link] thread, post #40


Seems we again bring up the guided, past20degree-launch angle (drop&fire) of the B29-BellX1,
well within the AMA requirements but way verboten by FlyRockets.com (regulation page, mid paragraph 2)

So for rocket launching fans, just shop the safety codes untill you find a set of rules that allow what you want. Dont like the AMA G size cap, fly under NAR/Tripoly/FlyRockets safety code... dont like the FlyRockets ban on guidance, then fly under AMA codes. Just put on whichever hat you want to fly under: AMA SubG Freeforall, NAR Powerhouses, or FlyRockets Unguided Verticles. If none of those float your boat, head the the BLM wastelands & just stay within CFR14 ignoring the private club conflicting rules
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Old 11-14-2007, 11:04 PM
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Hey KE-

Glad you liked the thread enough to bump it up.

One thing that nobody has yet commented on is the rules promulgated by Tripoli. Not so much rules per se, but recommendations for specifically tailored site rules based on the amount of real estate between the launch site and abutting neighbor's property, altitude clearance granted by FAA, and such.

Seems very sensible to me, in contrast to the one-size-fits-all rules promulgated by AMA. Rocket launch sites are not created equally, nor are AMA chartered club flying sites. I think the key difference is that Tripoli trusts its members and clubs to think and act responsibly and establish rules for club (or prefecture) operations based on guidelines developed by the national organization. I hope to see AMA show such respect for its membership one day. Advice and guidance based on research, testing and experience is good; most of us don't need Mommy to tell us how to act any more.

Abel



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Old 11-15-2007, 01:06 AM
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Default RE: Extra-AMA Modeling

If that was an actual Tripoli event, they have been taken over by some bona-fide idiots [:@]

I am always amazed by the lack of attention, and respect some people show for commonplace things that might injure or kill them, or others[>:]


These people should know better, and for the first time; I don't have as much of a problem with composite engine bans[]

And I remember the rammed zinc and sulfur fuels






I'm better off, (and a feeling a bit safer), to be in rc planes now




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