AMA Discussions Discuss AMA policies, decisions & any other AMA related topics here.

GETTING PAID

Reply

Old 12-05-2007, 01:53 PM
  #1  
carden cap
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 25
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default GETTING PAID

Why can we not get paid for flying demos at Full Scale Airshows if we are invited by the Airshow. Why is it that? I pay a yearly fee for an insurance that is supposed to protect me in case of an accident right. So if I pay for something why can't I use it like I want? Myself and another individual have flown at many Airshows but we have not been able to collect funds for fear of losing AMA priveledges if the AMA were to ever find out. Now I'm not talking about a ton of money, maybe a few hundred dollars for flying or something. They usually give us free smoke oil but we dont use smoke much because it can tear up the covering over time. The aerobatic pilots at the shows have an insurance company that protects them and they collect a TON of money for doing shows including several hundreds/thousands of dollars of fuel. We can't use their fuel so we are stuck coming out of pocket for things. The airshows have offerd to pay but we have declined. I want to know why the AMA wont let us earn money if we are skilled enough to perform. Now if I'm wrong I apologize and we can close this thread and shame on me for not collecting. But if I'm not I would like an answer.
carden cap is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 02:00 PM
  #2  
JUGFLIER
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Muscle Shoals, AL
Posts: 1,018
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID

Carden,
To me it's real simple. You go get you some insurance separate from AMA and use that insurance. According to STL Pilot, The Hartford will write policies on model aircraft.
JUGFLIER is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 02:20 PM
  #3  
KidEpoxy
Senior Member
 
KidEpoxy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,681
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID

The joys of insurance.

I used to pay a bunch of money for car insurance, but that dont cover you for comercial driving of your car like Pizza Delivery. I have to buy comercial car insurance, and this may be a shock to some readers, but the charge more for that. (yeah, I know, who woulda dreamed an insurance company likes to charge more for every little detail about you )

So AMA insures you for non-comercial activities,
and it doesnt matter if you actually end up only flying 3hr/week for proffit instead of the 20hr/week retirees can fly for fun, the comercial flying is not covered by AMA insurance.

You can still do it, just grab some The Hartford insurance.
Which will then make you wonder why you have to pay Muncie for Secondary Insurance when you may now have StateFarm Homeowners insurance, Hartford RC Flying insurance, and AMA RC secondary
KidEpoxy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 02:23 PM
  #4  
DadsToysBG
My Feedback: (35)
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Posts: 2,497
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID

Another reason is the AMA is a non-profit group of flyers. If you fly for money your out side of the AMA guide lines. Even the company reps at fly-ins that are paid by the company to fly and demo their products must carry their own ins. That same rep that flys for fun is now covered by the AMA. Dennis
DadsToysBG is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 02:29 PM
  #5  
DocYates
My Feedback: (102)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 3,344
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID

You should be able to tag an extra coverage to your home owners insurance to cover you. It is not expensive and you could rest better at night. Talk to your home insurance agent and ask him, I bet he can set you up with something.
My guess is that the AMA is not going to cover you for the same reason they will not cover guys who go out and fly R/C for commerical purposes (photography, etc). I think Dennis hit the nail on the head.
Tommy
DocYates is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 02:45 PM
  #6  
mr_matt
My Feedback: (10)
 
mr_matt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Oak Park, CA,
Posts: 10,304
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID


ORIGINAL: DocYates
You should be able to tag an extra coverage to your home owners insurance to cover you. It is not expensive and you could rest better at night. Talk to your home insurance agent and ask him, I bet he can set you up with something.
you think that would fly with your homeowners insurance?
mr_matt is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 02:52 PM
  #7  
DocYates
My Feedback: (102)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 3,344
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID

Matt,
You are right..... I somehow doubt it, unless you get it in writing up front. My guess is that when they find out you are getting paid for it, they will defintely take a stronger look at it and run it thru their lawyers, but it is a place to start. Most companies will issue you an additional liability policy, but on seond thought they may frown on the getting "paid" part. Most guys doing these demos are not paid directly, or so I am told, so they probably are exempt from this issue. It does raise a very interesting premise however.
Tommy
DocYates is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 03:07 PM
  #8  
Rafael23cc
My Feedback: (6)
 
Rafael23cc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Junction City, KS
Posts: 2,954
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID

I have flown at airshows at the request of the airshow coordinator. I have not gotten paid directly, but i have given the airshow coordinator my receipts for the hotel fares, car fuel, meals and glow fuel for the event and he has reinbursed me. So I get to fly for free for the entire weekend.

You should have no problems with that arrangement.

Rafael
Rafael23cc is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 03:19 PM
  #9  
KidEpoxy
Senior Member
 
KidEpoxy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,681
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID

Raf,
add up all that compensation for services perfomed,
and ask the IRS if they want to tax that as Income, or if they dont mind you getting hundreds (thousands/year?) without them getting a piece of your pie.

While you may balance out travel & 'per dium' as business operating expenses vs the compensation,
to keep the taxman off your back for all that compensation,
that would kinda make that activity business.... you know, comercial.

And running comercial net zero or in the red is not a problem for the IRS aspect, but it does put a clamp on your AMA Non-Comercial insurance. It is non-comercial, it is not non-profitable-comercial

Guys, rather than trying to find the best way to hide the income
& hope the ameture internet tax lawyers here dont get you audited,
lets just help the guy get the proper insurance.
KidEpoxy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 03:42 PM
  #10  
carden cap
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 25
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID

Church's are Non Profit and they sure as heck make money. I believe that we should be able to get paid to fly at things like Airshows if we are asked to and are experienced enough to do that. Plus AMA is the "secondary" insurance. I'm sure 95% of us havent told anything to our homeowners insurance or renters insurance that we fly RC airplanes but if we destroy something homeowners or renters comes in first and then AMA comes in second. I dont see what the real difference is with it being an AMA flying site because whether it is airport equipment or a plane that is on the runway or out front. What makes airplane equipment or planes different from houses that could be on either side of an AMA flying field or behind or in front of it???
carden cap is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 03:48 PM
  #11  
DocYates
My Feedback: (102)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 3,344
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID

Carden,
I don't think the issue is "where it is at", it is the fact that when you start getting paid (not reimbursed, but paid) for your activities, you are then a commercial venture, and the AMA insurance is not tht kind of a product.

Much like full scale pilots (not commerical rated). They cannot be "paid" to fly someone from one place to the next, but they can be reimbursed for the cost of doing so. In order to be able to charge for those services it requires an entirely different set of regulations.

I don''t really think that you can compare what you are doing with a "chruch", and though I see nothing wrong with your activities, they do represent a commercial venture if you get paid for them.
Tommy
DocYates is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 03:48 PM
  #12  
STLPilot
Senior Member
My Feedback: (21)
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan, NY
Posts: 9,227
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID

Jug's right, why don't you just get your own commercial insurance, afterall what your doing is a commercial entity. I bet it will cost you a lot less then you think, even as a for profit.

But do you know why insurance carriers must segregate commercial insurance from non-commercial for insurance policies? Do you think it's because they don't want to do it? No, it's so you wear a red flag over your head for the taxman. To qualify for commercial insurance you need to be setup as a business and typically provide a tax ID number. If you make income the gov't is going to want a piece of the action, no matter how small as long as you operation net's a profit. Thank the gov't, not the AMA for the reasoning.
The AMA has a list of commercial RC schools on their website. If I were you I would call a few of them and ask how they acquired their commercial RC operations insurance. But you could just call your local general insurance provider, give him the details and ask for a quote. But like I said, if you tell the insurance company you are providing a "service" for personal net income, you've just raised the red flag on yourself as far as they are concerned. You best bet is to try and get a rider or maybe just utilize your homeowners. But again, I doubt you'll see nickel 1 if you try to file a claim and they found out you were doing it for any kind of profit without letting them know upfront.

The bottom line is that I doubt very much the AMA's insurance is setup to provide commercial "for profit" liabilities. Afterall their organization is a not for profit, like a church. With being setup as a not for profit gets perks on one side and disadvantages on the other, namely being able to personally bank profits like it sounds like you may want to do. A "ton of money" makes no difference to the IRS, in their minds no job is too small.

Oh but here is a little bit of bad news. If you want to get your own insurance and use that insurance in more then one state, you'll need coverage in each state where you provide the service. This time you can thank local tax and insurance laws for this little surprise.

STLPilot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 03:58 PM
  #13  
Rafael23cc
My Feedback: (6)
 
Rafael23cc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Junction City, KS
Posts: 2,954
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID

ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

Raf,
add up all that compensation for services perfomed,
and ask the IRS if they want to tax that as Income, or if they dont mind you getting hundreds (thousands/year?) without them getting a piece of your pie.

While you may balance out travel & 'per dium' as business operating expenses vs the compensation,
to keep the taxman off your back for all that compensation,
that would kinda make that activity business.... you know, comercial.

And running comercial net zero or in the red is not a problem for the IRS aspect, but it does put a clamp on your AMA Non-Comercial insurance. It is non-comercial, it is not non-profitable-comercial

Guys, rather than trying to find the best way to hide the income
& hope the ameture internet tax lawyers here dont get you audited,
lets just help the guy get the proper insurance.
Although I understand your reasoning, the thread starter said that most of the time not being paid at all leaves them having to pay for some items out of their pocket. If getting paid directly becomes a problem, then reimbursement could be an option. I agree that commercial insurance would be the most reasonable option. I don't do this enough times a year to have an effect on my income.

Rafael
Rafael23cc is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 04:27 PM
  #14  
STLPilot
Senior Member
My Feedback: (21)
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan, NY
Posts: 9,227
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID

Carden one more little detail and believe me this comment is only aimed to help you. Let's say you decided to take it upon yourself to fly these demos for compensation above and beyond expenses. And if you decided to do such a thing without commercial insurance and something really bad happened like a serious injury, I can assure you that because you were flying demos for profit versus flying demos for less then expenses, you will need a very very very good lawyer on side. The reason that commercial insurance laws and commercial tax laws are written is so that people that want to make money utilizing their own "power", utilize responsibility not only in the quality of their product, but also when that product goes bad. Making money in this world takes more responsibility, then it takes hard work.
STLPilot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 06:29 PM
  #15  
DadsToysBG
My Feedback: (35)
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Posts: 2,497
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID

As a private pilot I can fly you anywhere and I can take your money for the gas. Pay me for my time in the plane and I'd better have more ratings. If you are paid travel and motel OK you are still flying free. Get paid cash money to fly, no AMA and no home owners ins. either. It is a business and needs different insurance.
When I opened my store no one could say what to do. Am I flying for fun or am I promoting my store? I got extra ins. Found out that my trailer wasn't covered either under my home or car ins. because I have a store. Had to buy ins. on that too.
When you start to take money the waters get murky when it come to liability.
Heres another question to toss around. What if you are paid to teach RC flying? Have fun with that one. Dennis

DadsToysBG is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 07:25 PM
  #16  
ira d
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Moreno Valley, CA
Posts: 3,126
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID

Seems to me if someone wants to give you a few bucks now and then for flying
at a air show whos to know. I can understand if you do this full time and you
are solicting for business where the AMA could have a problem with that.

On the other hand if you was to get a check in the mail a few days after the
air show how would the AMA even know.
ira d is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 07:28 PM
  #17  
STLPilot
Senior Member
My Feedback: (21)
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan, NY
Posts: 9,227
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID


ORIGINAL: ira d
On the other hand if you was to get a check in the mail a few days after the air show how would the AMA even know.
Exactly! Great point Ira, how would the AMA even know. It's sort of just like drunk driving, it's not like the cops are in your car with you, jeez.
STLPilot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 11:17 PM
  #18  
Hossfly
 
Hossfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: New Caney, TX
Posts: 6,130
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID


ORIGINAL: DadsToysBG
//SNIP//

When you start to take money the waters get murky when it come to liability.
Heres another question to toss around. What if you are paid to teach RC flying? Have fun with that one. Dennis
There are some water-clearing aspects to be found in AMA Document 500H. http://www.modelaircraft.org/documents.aspx

While I have never instructed for pay, I do accept the credit for getting that program passed into AMA's little bandwagon.
Hossfly is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 12:33 AM
  #19  
mr_matt
My Feedback: (10)
 
mr_matt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Oak Park, CA,
Posts: 10,304
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID

Even gets trickier for reps. There are a LOT of RC reps out there.

Carl told me that the precedent was set with Phil Kraft. The question with him being, when he flew was it a "business" or not. AMA decided it was not, at least what I heard from Carl.
mr_matt is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 12:48 AM
  #20  
ira d
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Moreno Valley, CA
Posts: 3,126
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID

I look at the occasional flight for pay or being paid for instruction occasionally
the same as if use my car to take someone somewhere and they pay me its
really nobodys business, but if put a taxi sign on my car and start to solicit
customers im sure my insurance company along with the state and local
authorties would have a problem with me.
ira d is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 04:48 AM
  #21  
STLPilot
Senior Member
My Feedback: (21)
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan, NY
Posts: 9,227
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID

ORIGINAL: ira d

I look at the occasional flight for pay or being paid for instruction occasionally
the same as if use my car to take someone somewhere and they pay me its
really nobodys business, but if put a taxi sign on my car and start to solicit
customers im sure my insurance company along with the state and local
authorties would have a problem with me.
Right and just like drunk driving, what if you got caught. I think that's the point of this thread, at the least part it sounds like this guy is looking for helpful advice. I mean anyone can break the law or take a risk with their home and personal equities, that's easy. The hard part is being responsible.

What if your driving someone and they pay you and then you get into an accident. And lets say that accident was caused by you and you hurt your "friend" who had to pay you to drive them somewhere. First off I assume he's not a friend if the guys gotta pay you for a lift. Under most local and state ordinances, you just made yourself an illegal taxi. In fact in the case of driving anyone in California for any kind of compensation is considered commercial and that even includes any kind of expenses. If you've been to San Francisco, it's easy to understand why they have that law. Just about every cab I've ever attempted to get into there was an illegal taxi first.

You don't have to "solicit" your customers to be qualified as a taxi, you just have to accept money. The money is what the local authorities and a judge would have a problem with, not the word Taxi written on your car.
STLPilot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 05:07 AM
  #22  
KidEpoxy
Senior Member
 
KidEpoxy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,681
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID

Doc-
I may be wrong, Tommy, I havent read up on it for years,
but I recall that without Comercial Pilot rating you couldnt accept more than their share of the expenses... such as if I piloted 4 of us to Vegas, I could not accept more than 75% the cost of the flight from the other 3 folks. But I studied that 3 or 4 years ago & like I said, I may be thinking of something else.
KidEpoxy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 08:29 AM
  #23  
DocYates
My Feedback: (102)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 3,344
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID

KE,
Thats right. You can only be reimbursed for their share of the expense. If you make any money (profit) from the flight, it falls under the realm of a comercial pilot, and that is a big no-no, if I remember correctly. It has been a few years since I took the test as well, but I do seem to remember that as a sticking point. You cannot make money with a simple Private pilot's license, you must have the commerical rating to do so.
Tommy
DocYates is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 09:34 AM
  #24  
bkdavy
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
bkdavy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: FrederickMD
Posts: 2,114
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID

The issue of being paid to fly at an airshow (beyond compensation for expenses) puts your flying into the commercial realm, and is now subject to all FAA regulations regarding the same. That means aircraft certification, maintenance, safety ratings, licenses, permits, etc. AC-91-57 (I think that's the right number) was specifically written to exempt Hobby flights. Anything you do beyond that now takes you out of the circular, and into regulated space. Aerial photographers have been dealing with this for a few years, and the FAA is working on specific regulations to permit small UAVs, but it will still be more heavily regulated that our hobby use.

Bottom line - if you get paid to fly, be prepared to deal with the bureaucracy.

Brad
bkdavy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 10:12 AM
  #25  
carden cap
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 25
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: GETTING PAID


ORIGINAL: bkdavy

The issue of being paid to fly at an airshow (beyond compensation for expenses) puts your flying into the commercial realm, and is now subject to all FAA regulations regarding the same. That means aircraft certification, maintenance, safety ratings, licenses, permits, etc. AC-91-57 (I think that's the right number) was specifically written to exempt Hobby flights. Anything you do beyond that now takes you out of the circular, and into regulated space. Aerial photographers have been dealing with this for a few years, and the FAA is working on specific regulations to permit small UAVs, but it will still be more heavily regulated that our hobby use.

Bottom line - if you get paid to fly, be prepared to deal with the bureaucracy.

Brad
I'm not talking about flying trainers or a tiger stick off to the side of the airshow at an airshow. We are actually acts in the airshow. We fly a 40% and have a specified time and place to fly and are controlled by the Airboss so the airspace is blocked off just for us. We actually have the whole aeorbatic box available to us but dont completely use it basically because you couldnt get a good perspective of the airplane and the crowd just wouldnt be into the flying. And I'm also talking about only flying in one maybe two shows a year so its not like I'm trying to run a business. The AMA should come up with stipulations to the rule. I can understand if I'm traveling around to different shows and different states and making it into a business but I'm not. I'm just talking about 1 or 2 shows in my area where I live.
carden cap is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service