combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Who thinks the 2 pound, 60 mph limit to define Park Flyers is ridiculous?
Who thinks that it is OK?
Personally, I think it should be more like 13 ozs and 35 mph, with a functional and instant acting power shut-off.

804

My Feedback: (1)

How about self-deploying 'chute and warning siren?

Actually, I think 2lbs. at 60 mph would be pretty severe hit. Wonder how they came up with those paramaters? Must be something behind it.

I voted too liberal

friz

My Feedback: (2)

Why do you assume that the PF will hit someone? Have people never been hit at a club function?

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

friz, that is exactly how we know that a PF WILL indeed hit someone, sometime.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

I think the more "fun to push" button will win the poll....which makes this poll worth about as much as a GMS .40 in a pylon race.
Wish one of you physics majors would chime in with the developed PSI that a 1/4" radius spinner cone would have with 60 mph x 2 pounds worth of force.
I hazard a guess that economic forces had something to do with the limits set. If the guys who set the limits are present and accounted for when the first wrongful death lawsuit from a PFer is heard, it will be interesting to hear what technical experteeze went into the PFer design and performance limits.

Mr67Stang

GMS .40 = about 2/10ths of a cent (coupon value)
This poll (killing 5 minutes of time at work) = priceless

ira d

I think the current definition is ok and we have a lot of planes at my club that
would fit into that description.

busted2props

My Feedback: (9)

Unfortunately, it is probably closer to the truth than most want to admit. 2lbs as 60mph, OUCH. that's gonna hurt. Does anyone actually know the performance of the park flyers type aircraft? I don't cause I have not researched them. I have seen some pretty amazing electrics, though. I am sure everyone else has, too. Get hit by one of those and it's OUCH twice over...

KidEpoxy

When some PF 3d guy with a 400watt, 10x4 APC on a 2lb plane
dumbthumbs a hover into the guy next to him,
the results of that 3mph impact can very easily cause loss of life, sight, or limb.

As I have said before, it is not the weight & speed of the plane behind the 12k rpm green razorblade,
it is the fact that even 2lb planes will mount those APC CarnageMakers,
and 3d parkflying will have that buzzsaw 15-20' from folks rather than flying the pattern at 100-300 alt.

To a 3d flyer, the right size motor for a 2lb plane is
the biggest one you can get.
300watt, 400wat... 700watt... 1400watt .. if 400w is unlimitted vertical, then 700 will be Unlimitted-er.
This is the kind of thing that produced the V8 Vega back in the day.

Why not, if a 42-50 Rimfire is a 7oz motor that seems right on a 1lb BlueFFF profile 3d PF frame... untill you see that its 1.4hp-1.9hp spinning a 10" apc like a hot .40glow

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Mr67, glad to be of service.... now give me 20 and get back to work you gold-bricker [>:]!

Ira, there are probably 20 pound planes at your clubs' field also, but how many 2 pounders would you like seeing in the air at the local school yard with kids playing in the background? The term "Park Flyer" in and of itself is designed to legitimize the flying of model planes at "the park".
The "Pro PFers" say that it is being done anyway, so might as well embrace it.
Then the next step was to establish limits. The limits appear to have been set by GWS, Great Planes, Hobbico, etc. and not by anyone concerned with public safety.
I fly a class of C/L combat with .15 PAW diesels, they weigh about a pound RTF and go about 60 mph. If one of those hit a spectator or anyone else at full speed in the head....

KE, good point, you can pack quite a wallop with 2 pounds worth of machinery at little or no speed. When I first heard about "park flyers", I visualized little things with motors about as strong as rubberband power jobs, floating around at jogging speed. A .049 BabyBee puts out about 70 watts and I wouldn't want to be drilled by one of those at 40 mph, but I would "back fist" something like that if it was coming at me slowly enough. What I'm saying is that the potential energy of these toys needs to be looked at more closely and I guess it will come down to the insurance company having to take control if PFer casualty claims become epidemic.

iron eagel

60 mph is 88 ft per second, that is equal to two average ranch houses in length, in one second, pretty fast in my book.

if you want to do the math....

F=MV

F is the force
M is the mass in kilograms
V is the velocity in meters

How much does a baseball weigh, what type of damage can a 90 Mph pitch do????

iron eagel

Sounds like a nice Skillsaw to me....

KidEpoxy

When a few PPP guys fly their foamies with the IR 'guns' & detectors for IR combat at the park,
do they wear helmets?
Are they required to?
...
Are they even allowed to fly PPP IRcombat contests ad hoc at the park/parkinglot/backyard?

abel_pranger

I mashed the 'fun to push' button. I think it as good as any choice, because the 'right' answer is situational. For AMA's purpose, which is to establish exclusive AMA clubs in more urbanized areas, their definition makes as much sense as the program does in whole. I presume (hope) they envision flying will be done over dedicated, controlled space where non-AMA club members and other park users aren't allowed to be.
For 'real' park flyers that remain outside the AMA sphere of control while flying in parks, a proper PF is to me a model airplane that doesn't annoy or intimidate other park users. That means no more massive than other missiles familiar in open use areas within parks, like footballs and frisbies. A football is 14-15 ounces, and that seems a reasonable upper limit. At 60 mph per the AMA PF spec, the length of a football field incl. end zones is covered in 4 sec. Maybe okay on large multi-use sports fields in some parks when not occupied by other folks, but not in the space of a Little League diamond. 20 mph seems intuitively closer to the threshold of intimidation for other park users. Many, many slo-flyers and 3D PF models, both foamies and traditional built-up, are available at well under 15 oz all up, and give spirited performance with top speed under 20 mph. Gotta Zagi, go find a dedicated model airfield.

Abel

edit: dropped a word

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

IE, about 5 ozs for a baseball. 90 mph pitches "hiss" as they go past your bat.....
As an electrician I can relate the speed of the object to be similar to the voltage and the weight of an object is similar to the amperage...at least for the sake of this analogy. Tables [graphs] for lethal shock hazards have been set by UL for just about every volt / amp combo imaginable.
The same kind of study of flying objects needs to be done.....I'll bet the research is already done, just a matter of resourcing it.
Maybe the AMA has already done an exhaustive study and my concerns are BS?

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

guys,

You seem to forget...it is not the size or speed of the model that matters. It’s the pilot. Heck, there a few guys I know that fly 121" 42# gassers in the park... Wait a minute...I am skeeeered! I better stay home and curl up in the fetal position in the corner of my workroom...better flip the electrical breaker so I won't have an electrical fire.

Come on guys! I have been flying models, as many others have, in parks for a very long time and the sky hasn't fell yet!

Now repeat after me....model aeronautics is a safe and worthwhile activity...model aeronautics is a safe and worthwhile activity...model aeronautics is a safe and worthwhile activity...model aeronautics is a safe and worthwhile activity...model aeronautics is a safe and worthwhile activity...model aeronautics is a safe and worthwhile activity...model aeronautics is a safe and worthwhile activity...model aeronautics is a safe and worthwhile activity...model aeronautics is a safe and worthwhile activity...model aeronautics is a safe and worthwhile activity...model aeronautics is a safe and worthwhile activity...model aeronautics is a safe and worthwhile activity...model aeronautics is a safe and worthwhile activity...model aeronautics is a safe and worthwhile activity...model aeronautics is a safe and worthwhile activity...model aeronautics is a safe and worthwhile activity...

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

LCS, even though your abilities might be enough put on a 3D display in a kindergarten classroom......I'm thinking about the average guy who has just bought a box that says in 4 in high bold block letters....PARK FLYER!!! This guy is so pumped to get his pride and joy in the air that little distractions like people milling around don't matter, because this guy has an honest to goodness park flyer, so it must be OK.
We can only control the pilot to some degree at the club field, flying mostly around guys who are aware of what damage is possible helps. The park is a different deal, I've had folks pop out of the bushes while planes are buzzing around and they could not have acted any less concerned or in a hurry to get off the field, since it is their park too.

DelRay

K.E., my response is way off topic, but the v8 Vega mentioning prompted it, now that was some good stuff.

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

Its obvious that the only thing that matters in the PF definition is the power type...

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Not sure I follow you. If a 31 oz glider with a 1/2 pound of lead in the nose cone hit you in the back of the head at 15 mph, you might reconsider?

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

I am just injecting more fuel for this fire since the PF definition says electric is ok, but small glow is not, and I see them as causing the same damage...actually the electric could cause more since the glow would probably stop running.

Rat1

Your definition of a Parkflyer would put some models from manufacturers such as ParkZone out of the parkflyer group. Heck even my old ParkZone J3 cub would not fit into your PF group. My mountain models Magpie would also not be in the PF group since it weighs more then 13 oz and can fly faster then 35 mph if I wanted it to.


The current PF definitions are just fine in my book.

KidEpoxy

There are a lot of folks considering any electric that is smaller than a .40sport plane is a parkflyer.
And that is the problem, that many of these planes considered ParkFliers should never be flown in the local PARKS!

Perhaps AMA should have embraced the SLOWFLYER planes instead.
Then a simple rule would be 2lb, SlowFlyer props at less than 7k rpm.
Cause when you try to put 1.5horsepower into a orange fwippy it will throw the blades, as well as acting as ShearPin safetys when you hit a guy.

Local parks dont need 60mph planes in them... nor 55 or 50.
SLOWFLYERS, the kind of thing you can yell LOOKOUT!! and have time to react.

The edge of a frisbee is blunt.
The edge of a softball is blunt.
The tip of an APC prop is not, and when we talk about TipSpeed Hitting Mach, that is well beyond 60mph.

ira d

We have to remenber that the parkflyer type planes have been flying
for years now in parks and elsewhere and we have not heard much
about accdents or injury with them.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Ira, it is true that injury reports....[especially the type where innocent bystanders are involved] aren't widely known. Readers' Digest would be all over such a story as well as some of those product safety watchdog agencies.
Here is a parkflyer that I'm currently working on. It will weigh right about 32 ozs and might hit 60 mph with a steep dive into a tail wind, with a pair of APC 7x3s turning 17 thou...