rcflyertim

Just curious......What would be the HQ repsonse to an AMA / IMAA event that didn't have the CD present at the event?

airega1

My Feedback: (204)

Well who is running the show?

pettit

My Feedback: (23)

How about this?

If The club doesn't ask AMA or IMA to issue a sanction for the event, all it turns out to be is a nice day at the field that the Club just happened to invite some of their closest friends.

Normal insurance coverage rules will apply.

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

It sounds like he's going to hold a sanctioned event, however the CD would just not be present, as per the OP's question. His question is simple, the CD is the person that sanctioned the event, that person must be there, as far as the AMA side of the event.

If you are the CD and you are still going to run the event, you better call the AMA to let them know or you could wind up losing you CD status and causing a big problem if there is an accident for all parties involved.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/...708General.pdf

JohnBuckner

My Feedback: (1)

I beleve there is protocol for naming an assitant CD on the sanction for such situations but I also think this person must also hold a CD certificate.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Well... is there actually competition at AMA/IMAA events anyway???

Quite a few of the events that I have attended, that were none rulebook events, the CD went home early...usually right after drawings for prizes and/or lunch served. I guess the event duration is arbitrary if duration is not formally advertised or rulebook and could end within minutes of starting…open flying of big birds...doesn’t get any better than that…ell yea!!

rcflyertim

Guys,

Thanks for the comments and keep them coming. Very informative and educational.

Here is the issue. A club wants to have a AMA/IMAA event but doesn't have a CD that can attend the event. What happens if a CD's name is used on the forms to apply for the premit with AMA/IMAA but can not attend the event at all. (Will be out of town or working) What are the ramifications of such action for the club and the CD himself. What options does the local club have? Who enforces thoes penalities if there are any?

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

Every answer is posted on that link I just posted above. A CD already knows the answer to these questions. The first and last thing this CD must do is contact the AMA before the day of the event, plain and simple. There are no other alternatives.

pettit

My Feedback: (23)

The CD can lose their CD status with AMA, the club can be repremanded by AMA or maybe not re-chartered next year.

If the event is to be held soon, look to another club to find a CD.

Or maybe one of the other club members can get certified as a CD. It's really easy.

Bottom line: You need a CD there at the event, competition or not, dur5ing the whole time.

They act as the AMA representative and that's the rules.

JohnBuckner

My Feedback: (1)

Competition is not a prerequisite for running an AMA sanction. Many non flying events are commonly sanctioned.

On your second point do consider that its very likely in many of the events you are talking about that there was an officially listed assistant CD on the sanction in place an you were not aware of that fact. Full time presence of the CD is not required with a sanction listed assistant CD (who also holds a CD certificate) present.


If in fact a CD for any sanctioned event is not present and there is no assistant CD then yes of course that CD is not holding up to what he agreed to do.

John

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

John

I am not sure you get my point. Let me try again. If the event isn't a rulebook or otherwise a competition event, that has to run to a predetermined conclusion, the CD could simply declare "open flying" and simply leave at just about anytime. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. The declaration of "open flying" could be made minutes or hours after the pilots meeting. Since IMAA events aren't competition type events the CD could exercise the "open flying" option at his discretion

pettit

My Feedback: (23)

LittleCrank: If the CD isn't planning on being there anyway, why go to the effort and expense of getting an AMA sanction in the first place?

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Good question...for the original poster…try asking him…but I wasn't talking about a CD not being there...I was talking about a CD being there… at least for some period of time. If the CD isn't there...there isn't a sanction...so...no CD...no sanction...

pettit

My Feedback: (23)

Actually, the AMA sanction has to be processed well in advance of the date of the event.

This includes the name of the CD that is charge of the event.

If on the event day the CD shows up and then leaves, there is still an AMA sanction in place, CD or not.

Just because the CD is not present, it is still an AMA sanctioned event.

It is the CD's responsibility to officiate the event, competition or not, for the entire time stated on the sanction.

Maybe some CD's don't like taking responsibility for things that sign up for....

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Actually the "Event Sanction Application" only requires a date to be specified not the amount of time or hours. Unless specified elsewhere an event could only be a minute long...I hope you are not trying to say the CD should be there at the opening and locking of the gate on the day of "The Event"... because that would be an erroneous interpretation.

pettit

My Feedback: (23)

Sorry, but that is exactly what I am trying to say.

As CD, (or "event director") his RESPONSIBILITY is to the attendees and to the AMA for doing the job he signed up for.

He does have to be there for the entire time.

If they are so irresponsible that they would leave the event after a minute or an hour, they do not deserve to hold the title of "CD".

That's my opinion, not AMA's, but AMA probably thinks along the same lines.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Well... maybe it is just in these parts but at every event I have ever been to, at some point open flying is declared and the CD will retire for the day. I see nothing wrong with that.

pettit

My Feedback: (23)

That may be true, but the CD needs to be there for all the "organized" aspects of the event.

The original poster asked if the CD has to be there at all, and the answerr is "YES".

And has to be there for the organized part of that event.

rcflyertim

Hey Guys,

Here is the deal.....Several in our club think that this "AMA CD" thing is just naming someone to have on a piece of paper. Of course they have no idea what it really takes to be a CD and most don't care to be one. All they want is a JUMBO event and for years they have had a AMA/IMAA Jumbo event. I move to town and try to educate/explain what it is really all about and I have a few rebels who say that I am being hard noised and a whistle blower. I say that I am not and if you spend the time to read the document listed above it clearly states that the CD MUST be present at the event THE ENTIRE TIME!

We have 3 guys in our club that at CD's and all 3 can not attend the event. They talked one of the CD'd into filling out the paper work and submitting it to AMA and the club said "they just needed him to sign that he would be the CD and then the club would find someone to really be there" The club thinks that it doesn't matter if the CD is there or not. I finally talked to the guy they convinced to be the CD and told him he could loose his CD liscense and maybe the club might loose it's charter for what I consider falsifying documents or at least misrepresenting the facts.

The guy told me he appreciated the info and was going to call and tell AMA tah the could not CD the event. The club (or I should I say 2 rebels) thinks I am being excessive. I know the rules, I myself am a CD. I wish the club had more guys that would read the rules and be knowledgeable of what the AMA / IMAA require rather than me bringing things up all the time at meetings.

I have a feeling they are going to march forward with this AMA event and I really hope that nothing goes wrong. The sad thing is....if nothing does go wrong...they will be more willinging to try it again next year. So...what the right thing to do? Be a show stopper and whistle blower? Stay away and hope for the best and say "i told you so" if something does? Or asct like it is no big deal and join right in and participate.

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

Well it seems to me that filing the sanction is a waste of time in the first place. The first reason most file for sanction is for the extra protection. However if something happens at your even the sanction is void, unless you can get everyone at the event to lie. So really ... it's pointless to sanction the event, because if something did happen you've risked everything for something you never had in the first place, added protection. You've also breeched a contract/sanction with a not for profit organziation ... heck man the way you are stating it you not will breech the contract, you've falsified it in the first place.

You're solution is the poster child for the term "occams razor". In this case the solution is so widely obvious ... you need to just go ahead and cancel the sanction and just call it a fun fly with normal AMA protection. You can have 1000 guys show up and if you follow the safety code you still get the general protection the AMA offers.

JohnBuckner

My Feedback: (1)

So Tim if you are already a CD why don,t you do it?

If my club is going to hold an event and an event sanction is in place with no CD or sanction listed assistant CD present then I as a Certificate holder want as far away from that group of misinformed people as possible.

The possible liability ramifacations for all involved are horrendous if a serious incident should occur and the CD fraud becomes evident.

You would be much better off just like Mr. Pettit said in his first post, not sanctioning at all as long as the event was on the clubs normal listed flying site.

Hossfly

Gee, so much info and so much second guessing. The rules are written and all one has to do is go read them.
Rcflyertim, for one thing you cannot use the letters IMAA in a sanctioned event unless it is sanctioned through IMAA, which will then be sanctioned by AMA.
For others, competition has nothing to do with the "Sanctioning" of an event other than the classification that can be applied for.

For a Contest Director and his Sanctioned Event: (I don't have a link right now because I have the manual downloaded on MY computer.)

Quoted from the AMA Membership Manual 2008.

OOPs! before anyone gets their shorts all knotted up about copyright stuff:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Copyright Law of the United States of America
§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use40

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.

"....General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: “quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; ...."
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>>>>
Contest Directors

CD a title bestowed on a selected individual who is already a member of
AMAand has been for a minimum of three consecutive years. The CD has
the authority to administrate and supervise AMAsanctioned events under
those procedures and guidelines as prescribed by the AMAExecutive
Council.
The CD acts as a representative of AMA in the administration of
sanctioned events.
There is a high level of responsibility as a result of this status. The
concerns of properly applying the rules, maintaining fairness, and providing
high levels of safety in connection with the event are basic. In acting as the
Academy’s representative, the CD is protected by insurance and, if necessary,
legal support. It should be noted, however, that such protection requires that
the task be done in a competent manner.
Contests advertised to the public and to model aviation clubs as AMA approved
events must be sanctioned by the AMA. Potential contestants must
be assured that the AMACompetition Regulations will apply. Because AMA
sanctions exist to promote national standards, each CD shall enforce the
AMACompetition Regulations as written for Class A-AAAAA competitions
unless overriding concerns about safety, adverse weather, dangerous terrain,
or other serious issues dictate otherwise. Proposed deviations from the AMA
rules must be detailed as part of the precontest sanction request. Such changes
will be reviewed by the technical director for 1) possible safety or procedural
concern, 2) determination of whether the deviations will be allowed, and 3)
which sanction status, “A” or “C,” will be assigned. If additional guidance is
needed, or in the case of an appeal, the Contest Board coordinator and the
Contest Board chairman for the event(s) in question will be included in the
decision process. The details for AMA sanctioned contests to be conducted
with rules deviations must be announced in advance (e.g., by advertisement
in Model Aviation, club newsletter, flyers, etc.), and, if possible, by notices
directed to clubs (e.g., by the Internet, fax, etc.). The intent should be to
inform as many potential contestants as possible before travel, especially outof-
towners. Rules deviations announced either in advance of contests or, by
necessity, just prior to the competitions due to immediate concerns must not
be arbitrary, involve personal bias, or unnecessarily violate the competitive
tone and historical integrity of any event. AMACDs should recognize that
modelers are willing to deal with reasonable hardships in order to compete
under long-accepted, traditional rules. Therefore, the consensus opinion of a
majority of contestants involved should be considered regarding rules
deviations announced on-site.
In order to effectively oversee conduct of an event, the CD is granted
specific authority relating to organization, rules, and safety. In addition, the
CD at an AMAsanctioned event has the authority to perform safety
inspections of any equipment and to prevent any participant from using
equipment which, in the CD’s opinion, is deemed unsafe. Furthermore, the
CD shall have irrevocable authority to disqualify or prevent from flying any
participant whose ability is, in the CD’s opinion, impaired by the use of
alcohol or drugs.
AMA CDs who are lax in running events and fail to enforce standard rules
jeopardize their official standing and encourage criticism of the value of
AMA sanctions. Even for local sanctioned contests, temptations to modify the
standard rules should be resisted so that the integrity of events can be
protected. Regular offerings of standard rules at sanctioned contests will
provide consistent opportunities to aspiring contestants (especially
newcomers) to gain valuable experience. Where out-of-town participants are
involved, the entrants have a right to expect strict adherence to regulations.
To ignore this is to invite protests and disqualification of record
performances, for instance. To this end, contestants may submit their
objective evaluations of administration of contests to the respective CDs for
consideration.
A CD, when acting as a representative of the AMA, is responsible for
properly applying the rules, maintaining fairness, and the completion of all
required applications and reports.
A CD must, at all times, remember that he/she is a representative of AMA
and will conduct himself/herself in a professional manner.
He/she must be present at all times when the event he/she is responsible
for is taking place. It is his/her responsibility to find a suitable replacement if
he/she is unable to fulfill the responsibilities.
A CD is responsible to see that all safety rules and precautions are
followed to the letter. Any CD who knowingly allows an unsafe condition to
exist is subject to the loss of his/her CD status.
Overall, the AMA Executive Council is responsible for correcting the
deficiencies in the AMA CD program. The changes should be aimed at
protecting AMA against potential liability, while maintaining and motivating
AMA members to perform the volunteer service of CD. Where the position is
abused, AMA needs to be ready to act fairly, yet remove the CD designation
if such action is warranted.
Interpretation. There are many precedents to follow in not upholding the
letter of the law in rule enforcement! This is frequently necessary if the rule
language is inadequate or unclear. However, the intent is usually understood,
and this should be the determining factor in decisions. The Judges’ Guide, if
one is available for an event in question, should be influential in decision
making because it clarifies the intent of the rules.
On the other hand, where the language is clear there should be no question
of following a rule exactly as written.
<<<<

While the most of the above is directed at competitions, the non-competitive events can also be sanctioned, as mentioned.
Actually in my 45 years as a CD, I find it much easier to CD a "Rule-Book" event than a "Fly-In", "Fun-Fly", or even some other non-rule book event such as an IMAA Fly-In. Regular AMA Rule competitors are well aware of the Profile of their events, and get going without much hassle, while the non-competive sport fliers are much more difficult to keep in line along safety rules, flying discipline, and the need to move things along when they are in some competition such as a fun-fly.

rcflyertim

Horrace,

Thanks again for the good comments and provided info. I have a copy of the 2007-2008 rule book and it is good to re-read that section evey once in a while. I agree with you, it is much easier to host a "competition" event than a fly-in or funfly. The IMAC, indoor events, and control line guys all know what is expected of them when they show up for a meet. However, I seem to get flack from those that do not want to be involved in competition and they think it is "stupid" to have to meet the competition rules. As always, I tried to be informative and let them know that these are not my rules,,,,they are the rules of the AMA who sanctioned the event require.

I have told several clubs over the years that if you don't want to follow the rules then don't have a sanctioned event. OR for that fact, just disband as a AMA club and do what ever you want to do! OR ....just have a AMA event that is not sanctioned. IF the true goal is to just get a bunch of guys together to fly with no rules and regulationsa at all, then do it with local advertising and not file for a event listing with the AMA. But I tell them that if you want the converage and additional protection then you have to comply with the regulations.

JohnBuckner
You have a valid question. I am one of the 3 CD's that can not attend. I would almost be willing to change my plans to take care of the event, but based on what happen at last years event with one rebel child, I am not going to bend over backwards for the club until this individual is put on probation or kick off the club. After last years event that I CD'd I called my VP and wanted some help to get this individual who is a real bad apple and gives the whole organization a bad image some idea how to get ride of him. The VP said there is nothing AMA can do on the local club level with individuals. I can see his point put it really gives me no power to do anything about him. SO....I am not willing to participate until the local club to host events until they either revoke his membership or at least put him on probation. The club took no action against this individual and it was a real slab in the face to me. He has only been a member for about 4 years and thinks he runs the show and no one yet other than myself is willing to oppose him.

Any suggestion on how to resolve this delima?

It is hard to help when you have someone who doesn't want to listen to reason. When that individual becomes verbally abusive I think it is time and would be benifical to remove such individual from the club. I am a BIG suppoter of AMA and I like what they have done for this sport/hobby. I want to comply with the requirements that AMA sets and feel they try to impliment changes when needed. I do wish that individuals like this could be dealt with on the national level by suspending thier AMA licsense. I wish the local VP could be more involved in mediation. I wished more club memeber would want to follow AMA and not just wear a cloak for the insurance coverage.

I know that I am not the only one that has had trouble at events with someone who wants to be a "jerk", and be loud, and yell, and make a scene just because they don't like rules and they don't want to follow AMA "competition" rules just to have a fun fly or jumbo event. In their eyes, it is silly and rediculos to make all the rules. They want to come, be loud, and have fun....to them, that is what it is all about. The problem is......is some ways....the CD, who has allowed them at some previous event to get by with it. So a pattern develops and they continue to march on!

I really would like to see the event continune in the future and I really hope that we get this iron out. There needs to be some changes and some education to club members about AMA events and how to do it right. When you have a divided camp it makes it hard to have cooperation. I am out of ideas....HELP!!

Hossfly

As the CD, you have all the power that really exists. Only YOU can exercise that power. If the host club president/officers fail to back you, then there is the local Sheriff and the "Disturbing the Peace" charge. You have the list of the entries in the event. Given that your charge is true, all those troops either have to support your charge or risk perjury. As CD you are the boss. What you elect to do with being boss is up to you. See my last paragraph below.

As CD. you have the option of making certain rule changes for your event. In all fairness. these rules should be pre-advertised. In my Pilot Briefing, if there is some late unadvertised change wanted by contestants/entrants, then it is explained, a vote taken, and the vote has to be 100% for the change, or we go as advertised. That has worked well for 45 years, and I have CDed 1-5 events per year for almost each of those years. Exceptions being 1983-88 when I went fishing for a while.

Please Tim. don't think I am being smart-butt or critical. It's, IMO, just that YOU have to be well ahead of the game in knowing just how YOU plan to proceed, especially when the pilots start arriving. You never allow anyone to think that you just might not be in charge. If you do you are toast. That comes not with threats, fussing, mind-changes, etc., but with a firm assuredness, that is evident in how you are handling the job. Personally, if the rules are AMA rules, or my own, then they all are MY rules. I don't ever make excuses for the rules. If you set that tone in your briefings, by kind of a joking fun tone, not threats, then the vast majority of modelers will be on your side and the rest will soon fall into step.
OTOH, I am not against using whatever I have to use to make sure the event progresses well for all concerned. If an unpopular call has to be made, even to throwing someone out of the event, then that will be done. While some discipline calls have had to be made, and some rule violations handled along the way, none have ever really required calling out the peace-keepers. One of the strongest tools you, as a CD, have is "Peer Pressure". The unruly usually turn rather meek as soon as they plainly see that YOU with your knowledge, willingness to help, and a smile on your face while performing labor for the benefit of others has those others firmly supporting YOU. Best of luck.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

rcflyertim

From this post it sounds like you are punishing a club for not punishing a club member that you feel is a "rebel" as you put it. It just may be you have gotten personal feelings intertwined with your desire to be a CD.

Maybe step back and take another look at the whole deal. If the club has issues with a certain member they will find a way to either support him or put appropriate peer pressure on him...peer pressure works quite well when the motives of someone is based on being the "cool one" otherwise he just might just have a point and you are failing to see it. Luckily, it is not up to just one person or a mere few to decide the fate of an individual in a club...it rightfully is and should be a club decision...the whole club… but at an AMA sanctioned event that you are CDing you are the sheriff and you can send him packing but if you are wrong, the club can take their own sanctions against you...now are you ready to do your job.

Now pull up them boot straps...be fair and not needlessly overbearing and all will be fine.