Cybertom

Links to recent news articles
[link=http://www.ohio.com/news/20648904.html]Model airplanes might get parked [/link]
[link=http://www.akronnewsnow.com/news/itemdetail.asp?ID=21556§ion=news&subsection=localnews]AUDIO Metro Parks To Ban Local Flying Club[/link]
[link=http://www.ohio.com/news/19639174.html]Pilots grounded at annual air show [/link]



Park agency wants club out of Tallmadge site

By Rick Armon
Beacon Journal staff writer


Published on Monday, Jun 23, 2008

TALLMADGE: When Summit County Metro Parks took control of about 290 acres just north of the county fairgrounds last year, the Corsair Model Aircraft Club was excited.

Members have been flying their remote-controlled planes and helicopters from the fairgrounds for 38 years, and the flight path takes their prized toys over a portion of the undeveloped property — a mix of ponds, woods, marsh, shrubs and meadow.

With the land being absorbed into the neighboring Munroe Falls Metro Park and not becoming a housing or commercial development, the club figured that members would be able to fly there for years to come.

'Clubs across the country co-exist with parks,' Corsair Trustee John Ashley said. 'Parks are our friends.'

But Metro Parks, Serving Summit County has told the group that it is no longer
welcome at the site and that the 261 members should start looking for a new location to use sometime next year.

The issue is a simple one for parks Director Keith Shy: Park regulations prohibit remote-controlled toys — even if they merely fly over park property. Rules are rules and they don't allow the planes, he said.

About 4.5 million people visit county parks each year and they come for the peace and natural beauty, he added.

His firm stance has irritated club members, who are now lobbying county officials — and soon the three-member parks board — to keep their longtime home.


Other park-fly deals
Why can't the group stay, they ask, when others around the state have chummy relationships with parks and public agencies? For example, the Loveland Propbusters fly at East Fork State Park near Cincinnati. The Deer Creek Model Airs use Deer Creek State Park near Columbus. The Flying Aeroes use the Trumbull County Fairgrounds in Warren. And the North Coast Liners Club fly at the Cuyahoga County Fairgrounds in Berea.

Ashley and other members will make a presentation today before the County Council asking for support. Councilman John Schmidt already has proposed a resolution asking the parks board — which operates independently of the county government — to allow the club to remain.

Several council members have jumped on board to support the resolution.

'We carve out niches in our parks systems for dogs, for skateboarders, for putt-putt golfers and everybody under the sun,' Schmidt said. 'And we should carve out a niche for these folks as well.

'They've been there in excess of 35 years, and they should be allowed to continue. They don't hurt anyone.'

Parks board members Frances Buchholzer, Rainy Stitzlein and Carol Curtis did not return calls seeking comment.


The history
The controversy stems from the county donating the new park property — located along state Route 91 and north of the fairgrounds — to the parks district.

The county and district also signed an agreement last year that involves a conservation easement for the remaining county-owned property there. That land includes the fairgrounds, Weaver School and soccer fields.

The agreement mentions those uses being permitted. But the document makes no mention of the Corsair Model Aircraft Club.

'We assumed all along that somebody was watching over us,' Ashley said. 'We got caught with our pants down. That ain't going to happen anymore. We should have been more proactive.'

Since the dispute began, the group has unearthed an October 1979 letter signed by former County Commissioner Ted Cole allowing the club — then called the Goodyear Model Aircraft Club — to use the fairgrounds property. It is unclear whether the commissioners ever formalized the agreement in a resolution or ordinance.


Parks board help
Ashley and other members also are planning to make a pitch to the parks board after meeting with County Council.

If the council supports their cause, it will lend more credibility to their side, Ashley said.

Without permission from the parks board, the club will be shut down at the fairgrounds, said Thom Bucknell, the club's vice president.

It's not as simple as re-routing the flight path because the parkland forms a C-shape around the runway. The club also can't fly away from the park because that would mean flying over the fairgrounds, creating safety concerns.

The planes currently fly over the area where a new hiking trail will be built. Model planes flying over the heads of park visitors also would be a safety hazard, Shy said.

The club — which carries $2 million worth of liability insurance — asked that the district move the trail, even offering to pay for the construction of a pavilion or area where people could stop and watch the planes.

Shy has rejected that offer.

'Why would we want to do that when [the planes are] already inconsistent with our rules?' he asked.

He said he sympathizes with the group, and added that he's already compromised by allowing club members to continue flying there until the hiking area is developed.

'Telling people 'No' is not fun,' he said. 'It's not one of my favorite things.'

He added that he's not against model airplanes.

'As long as they don't fly over our property, I'm fine with it,' he said.


The fairgrounds
But just as troubling for the group, Shy is questioning whether the club even should be allowed at the fairgrounds, saying the easement permits only agricultural uses and flying model airplanes isn't one of them.

Tallmadge has inquired about using some property there for new ball fields. The ideal spot? The flat land currently occupied by the Corsair club and owned by the county.

Mayor Chris Grimm confirmed the city's interest, but said that Tallmadge doesn't want to get involved in the dispute between the parks district and the club.

'We really don't care,' he said. 'I don't think my council cares whether they're there or they move.'

He said he would offer as a compromise some land around the corner off North Munroe Road, where Tallmadge wants to develop a shooting range.

Ashley and Bucknell said the group will continue to push to stay put. 'All [the Summit County parks board] has to do is follow the lead of many other park districts,' Ashley said. 'They can be progressive.'

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Unfortunate reality. Unless clubs can find more ways to include the citizenship without the never ending exclusionary tactics most often learned, our hobby will cease in the eyes of the general public and before long...poof

KidEpoxy

It is a shame this Anti-Aeromodeling parks rule wasnt taken up and rallied against earlier.

But then, earlier it was the classic AMA Sweet Deal: Flying outside of AMA is illegal.

Somehow the club & the AMA werent motivated to get involved when the parks dept was shutting down the public hobby... the hobby they are suposed to be promoting. It appears they had no problem with the parks rule that in effect forced folks to join ama because parkflying was illegal.

Well, now its a little late to notice the parks dept stepping on folks flying.
I dont think you will be able to rally the local Dad & Sons, that you left hanging before, to stand behind you now. You allowed the parks dept to take away public flying without a fight, and now you find out too late that you are "the public" too.

Will this turn of events bring a rally to allow public flying,
or will it be an attempt to preserve AMA Only flying on public (county?) lands.

If we defend the Hobby first, we wont have to defend ourselves individually.

DocYates

My Feedback: (102)

Guys why are you browbeating this guy's club? How do you know what they did nor how they were viewed in the public light? they have a pretty large membership if the story is correct. this sounds to me more like a bunch of environmentalist managers who want a quiet peaceful little "hiking trail" (which where I live tends to attract the very wrong crowd and a litany of cops writing tickets for lewd behavior). The AMA's mission may be to promote model aviation, but at the same time they should represent their MEMBERSHIP and not necessairly those who do not want to play to pay. Here we have a club which was abiding by the rules, and had a pretty good setup for 27 years, now being uprooted and told they are out in the cold, please don't use this to advoacte that if parkflyers and those who wish to fly but not participate in a club had been let in things would have been different.
I can find as much fault with the AMA in most cases as the rest of you, but this story does not appear to be the fault of the current leadership.
For the very reasons cited in this story and others I have gone out and found piece of property to develop on my own so I will not have to put up with being "thrown off" for no reason. You guys need to let up on the OP.

049flyer

My Feedback: (18)

With 261 members and 38 years as a club it should be easy to round up enough people with money to buy a flying field. This might be a blessing in disguise.

abel_pranger

Tommy-

The AMA does not enjoy a substantial tax exemption for representing their paid members, but supposedly for providing a service for the public good. The folks that do pay their own taxes and also AMA's share of the tax burden have every right to expect it to promote model aviation for the public good, as promised.

Quote by a club spokesman cited in OP: 'We assumed all along that somebody was watching over us,' Ashley said. 'We got caught with our pants down. That ain't going to happen anymore. We should have been more proactive.'


Abel

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

Where does the AMA mention anything about the public? Where do they say they promise?

So if I cancel my AAA membership this year I can get a free tow, paid for the people whom are willing to pay their fare share of the membership? Afterall AAA files tax free ... when do non members expect their free tow???

Membership based orgs should support the people who support them first and last. If some good comes from the AMA to someone or some group who are not a member, that's just the residual effects of their effort. Personally I think it should be the members who promote first and last via the tools the AMA provides us to utilize, just like some do.

AMA promises nothing more than they deliver.

DocYates

My Feedback: (102)

Abel,
The entire gist of most of the rhetoric about letting people fly who do not belong to clubs is the fact that the ones who do not want to pay, want to use the field without having to contibute to any of the work that keeps it up nor conform to any of the guidleines set forth by the majority. Say it ain't so. Every turn around this forum is filled with people who are complaining about not getting to fly unless they have an AMA membership or whining because the club has a field and they fly on it and "we" don't. At the same time the club is keeping up the propoerty, cutting the grass, usually paying for the runway maintenance and seeing to it that some vandal doesn't ride across it in a big truck, all so that some other yahoos who do not want to be associated with the club can come out and take advantage of the facility.
The AMA does enjoy tax exempt status and the biggest (IMO) contibution they offer is the land owner protection insurance. Why should they not advocate to cities and towns that only AMA members should get to fly there?
Yes, the club may have dropped the ball in thinking they were "taken care of", but they were not thrown off the field, at least from what I read, by the Park Administration because they were not allowing "fathers and sons" to share in their folly...gimme a break.
OK, nuff of my rant[:'(]

rcmiket

You all might want to get used to this. Just because the club has been there for 38 or 100 even years all it takes is the owners saying get out and your gone. Even land ownership is no guarantee of having you field forever. Both of the clubs her in El Paso have been given notice to vacate . Mine is looking at buying some land far out enough to be "safe" (who knows for how long). The other is looking for help from the "local government". It takes a BUNCH of money to build a field from square one. Money is a little tight right now in case nobody noticed. Were not giving up by any means but losing fields for any reason anymore should not be a surprise to anyone. Hope all works out but I would start looking at plan B if I were you all. Good Luck. Mike

KidEpoxy

Doc-

I dont feel guilt about not mowing the lawn at the park when I throw the frisbee around.
I dont feel guilt about not mowing the lawn at the park when we picknic at the tables & grills.
And I sure the heck dont feel guilt about not mowing the lawn at the park when I fly a foamie there.

If you would like to call all the non-flight park patrons (AKA TAXPAYERS) freeloaders,
that is your right. You are entitled to your opinion of taxpayers using the park for picknics, frisbee, & flight.

However, we are not talking about the AMA clubs exclusiveness to use the county property,
but the AMA's failureto protect the rights of all areomodelers.
The AAA doesnt promote hiway safety, but just for its members, or road maintenance for just its members.
Just as the NRA doenst protectt he rights of just its members.
But this tax priveleged org seems to feel its a Us Us Us mentality for protecting just our aeromodeling.

Why protect the public's right to fly?
Well, just as we see in this thread, turns out we are they.
Had we kept the parks dept off everyones back, they wouldnt be on the clubs back now.

Cybertom

The reason why I posted this is to get some help with our situation. It looks like the latest tactic is claiming that the model airplanes are a safety hazard. In 38-years of continuous operation (NOT 27-years) we have never had anyone hit by an airplane. I have estimated that we are near or have surpassed 1/2 million flights over that time period without incident. We have had on rare occasion someone who needed stitches because they got their finger hit by a prop but no serious injuries.

The parks allow swimming, baseball, soccer, horseback riding, and swimming. I have found injury statistics for all of those but it would seem that model airplane injuries are being lumped into a general activity category. I would like to find some real statistics so that I can make a comparison. Compared to those other activities I think being hit by a model airplanes would be a far less likely occurrence. I need some credible data to back that up.

Anyone with something valuable to contribute please comment. For everyone else this is a serious topic. If you have nothing of value to contribute...don't!

rcmiket

I don't know about you but losing 2 fields in less than 6 months is pretty serious. I was relating our situation here. Your club is in a very difficult situation just the fact they told you to "get out" is a pretty good indication of your future there. Sorry about your situation but its a growing problem in our sport and the trend will continue. I were you all I would start looking for a new place to fly. Mke

k3 valley flyer

My Feedback: (18)

If all else seems to be failing try going on the offense. You are in Ohio correct, home of the Wright Brothers, find someone to get a local news outlet to spin the park district and especially the new parks director as anti American, anti Ohio, anti patriotism etc etc. etc. You want to protray the rc club as red blooded Americans enjoying freedom to enjoy a very patriotic hobby! You get the idea, this is a dangerous tactic and can backfire, but if down to your last bullet try it!

Cybertom

rcmiket,

Look at plan B? You call that help? We have been there 38-years and we are fighting this! If you would read the links to the Akron Beacon Journal we have the Summit County Counsel on our side. They are voting on a resolution in support of us on Monday. We then plan to make a presentation to the Metroparks board which has the ability to make exceptions.

What I need is information on safety statistics

LSF2298

My Feedback: (4)

As I read this situation, it seems you take off from a runway which is surrounded on 3 sides by the park land. And the Parks Department is asserting control of the Airspace over the park land. Now this may be nit pickin, but that's what I like to do. Does the Parks Department claim to have control of the Airspace over it's property? If so, to what Altitude? And if so, where is it codified? County Ordinance? FAA Regulations? Where?? And if it isn't codified, what is the Legal basis for thier assertion of control? I believe the main point here is if they cannot substantiate airspace control, this would be a basis for a compromise. Maybe it would give them an incentive to work with the club for an alternate solution and not just a "Git out and Stay out!". Just my $.02.

Cybertom

The FAA has control over 700ft. Anything below 700ft. is a local matter.

PS,
The Kent State airport runway is directly north of the land we are speaking about. Full scale airplanes taking off and on approach for landing fly below 500ft. over that area all day. There have been times we have had to land our planes as a safety precaution.

Their arguments are BS. They figured we would just roll over and die when they told us to leave. Surprise!!!

rcmiket

Cybertom, If all those people are are you side whats the problem? Apparently they want you all out. You want statistics I suggest you contact your AMA rep. Good Luck.

bkdavy

My Feedback: (1)

Your best bet would be to contact your DVP or AMA headquarters directly, and see if they can get you access to the actuarial data used by the insurance company that provides the liability insurance for the AMA. They no doubt set their rates based on how much they actually pay out.

Brad

PS - maybe we should organize a million modeler march.

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

It's really easy to say that the AMA failed to protect someone or a group. We'll never know what the effects will be like without the AMA, they are here today and they'll be here tomorrow. So lets not forget the other 2500 success stories and I'm sure there have been more AMA club based flying sites opened this year and every other year, than have been closed.

Oh and the NRA and AAA doesn't win every war either. Which ones do you belong too?

DocYates

My Feedback: (102)

You are right KE, I should apologize, so here it goes....
If you were offended, I am sorry...
I am sorry if one is a deadbeat and cannot see that if a club has exclusive use of an area and keeps up a field then membership to that club should be required in order to use it.
I am sorry that you cannot see that one should not piggyback on the work of others and that everyone should pull their fair share.
I am sorry that you feel an organization whom one does not belong to should protect your rights just because it is in the best interest of that organization.
I am sorry that the AMA cannot afford to purchase every available park space across America, but then again if more people were paying members....
In answer to your question about the roads, AAA may advocate road safety, but I bet if I call them in the middle of the night and ask for roadside assistance the first thing they will ask me is if I have a membership number.
If you feel I called all the park flyers... freeloaders, I am sorry that you misunderstood my premise. Don't go putting words in my mouth. What I called you and lcs on was trying to turn a situation of a club losing its field into a mantra of "if they had only let people fly for free", when no where in the article was this ever mentioned. I did not read anywhere about membership costs in their club. And not everyone is a taxpayer, a large percentage of people pay no taxes or manage to get by without doing so, so that argument doesn't float with me. I may buy gasoline and pay road taxes, but I still have to buy a car tag to drive my vehicle on the highway. The government subsidizes air travel, yet I do not go down to the airport and get on a plane and fly anywhere I want for free. Besides, I can throw a frisbee in my yard, but I can't fly my plane there, so I am more than willing to pay for a place I can do so.
It is high time in this society that people realized a little bit of self responsibility. Instead of alluding to the fact that this club or the AMA did something wrong, why not give them some ideas that might help them. I have read enough of your posts to know you are very intelligent, and could be a big asset to them if you want. Don't turn every incident into another windmill joust.

Cybertom, I pity your situation, you have a tough battle ahead. I would fight this as well, you have nothing to lose. At worst case you lose the field, that is destined to happen on any accounts as it currently rests, however maybe the county or parks department may offer an alternate piece of property and if they do you should do your best to try and get them to assist in the development, considering you have 30 years invested in the previous site and a good size membership base. If there is a closed or sooned to be closed landfill in the vicinity, that might be perfect for you since those areas tend to be unfit for commercial or residential development for a long period. From the attitude of the "parks" fellow in the articles, it does not sound like his group plans to bulge, unless pushed, and if pushed and forced to give, in all likelihood you may be in an unpleasant situation with them in the future (constant complaints and attempts to run you off). I seriously doubt thae AMA can give alot of help with this, they should try however, but the best hope is working the local authorities, exactly like you are doing. Continue to get press coverage. Put members at the Walmart or Lowes on the weekend and get a petition signed. Set your planes up on a display and have people sign a petition, show them you have public support. Document the improvements you have made to the property and the positive effects you have on the local peoples and the fact that you have never killed a spotted owl. Take pictures of the area and show that it is not a mess, that you keep it up and keep it clean.
God luck and hopefully this will work out for your group..

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

Speaking as a member and not as a moderator . . . .

A local club here in N. Central Florida was faced with a similar situation when a bureaucrat wanted to shut down one of the clubs that had been flying for years on Corps of Engineers land (old Florida barge canal right of way) so it did not interfere with horse trails that were planned. They finally got the situation resolved when they brought in their state senator or representative who, after reviewing the situation (presentation from the club), immediately saw it as a case where said bureacrat wanted to show how much power he had. He was overturned, not sure if his "career" was impacted or not. In any situation where you are flying on public property, be it city, county, state or federal, this property will have an overseer who can at times feel it necessary to show the world how much power he has in running the property. All you have to do is find another like person that will want to show how much power he has and get them on your side. Bureaucrats can be manipulated - that is why they are bureaucrats in the first place.

049flyer

My Feedback: (18)

The problem is your parks director is unfamiliar with model aviation and doesn't trust your advice because you are biased.

What you should do is identify other cities throughout the country that provide park resources for flying clubs. Talk to the city employees that manage these facilities and ask for their assistance in convincing YOUR parks department to allow you to stay. There are many side benefits to having an active flying field at a park.

I'll bet your parks director does not realize how much the field is used by your members. Flying fields in temperate parts of the country are used year round. Ball fields are used seasonally. I'll bet your flying field gets more yearly attendance than any of the ball fields.

One huge benefit is that it is an interesting activity to watch for most people. I have been to some parks where the flying field spectator area is populated with picnic tables and bleachers. On nice afternoons the spectator area is filled with families enjoying a picnic meal and watching the planes.

Do you have flying events? I'll bet your parks director hasn't calculated the tax revenue generated by people visiting the city to attend your event. Nor has he calculated the tax revenue generated by the local hobby shops.

I will give you a start. Check out Markham Park in Ft Lauderdale Florida. It is a huge park with a FIRST CLASS flying field shared by multiple clubs. It has a paved runway, starting tables, work areas, bleachers, picnic tables and even a control line area with facilities as well. They even have an area about 1/2 mile away for float flying. Talk to some of those folks both in the clubs and city employees and ask for their help.

I travel there from time to time and the place is always busy with spectators and modelers, the city even charges admission to the park on weekends.

There are many other similar flying fields throughout the country. If you could identify a good number of these and present a list to your parks director he would see that it is a commonly accepted and supported activity.

Cybertom

This was in todays Akron Beacon Journal:

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Funny...well, not so funny... but that cartoon depicts the disconnect of "geeky" modelers from Joe Q. Public fairly well on many accounts. Makes my first post a bit clearer and shows that I am not the only one that perceives the reality as it exists...the cartoonists certainly did. You know, I think more of us should put ourselves in the vantage point of the average person and then we might understand just why they have the view of us they do.

k3 valley flyer

My Feedback: (18)

2Fast you make good points about the parks director not understanding the hobby and how it benefits a community, however, if I have read between the lines corrcetcly in the other posts, the director is new and a woman, and is taking a position that she must enforce a rule that exists. Woman managers are a real problem in the corporate world, (boy will I get it for that statement), but in my experience it is true. They view power differently than men. With a male supervisior you can have a major disagreement, argue it out and win or lose both parties move on and work together. NOT with a woman manager, question her authority and you are on the sxxt list forever! Logic does not work with them either once they take a stand, so not only do you need to find other park districts willing to expound the merits of a relationship with an RC club, you need to fing one that has a woman director in favor of RC, not likely to happen. Answer is to go over this director's head, straight to the park board and get her overruled. Good luck with that as park boards are political bodies and not easy to know what motives they have. Odds are not good they can save this field unless the park district changes directors soon, they do turn over often, have never seen one last more than 3 years with the local districts. This club needs to find a local news reporter that is on their side and maybe has an old axe to grind with the park district, articles that spin the districts postion as unreasonable and un American will get the park board's attention.