AMA or Private?
02-09-2009, 11:14 PM
#28
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RE: AMA or Private?
ORIGINAL: plumberdeluxe
My attorney is close friend and a student pilot I'm training.
My attorney is close friend and a student pilot I'm training.
Evidently you were asking for opinions? AMA or private? I'd stay private.
Why would you want to complicate your property with an AMA club? Will your friends only come and fly if it's AMA? I know of AMA lifers and saints in the evolution of the hobby that would love to participate in a private flying site. You own the land. Your attorney sets it up. You are in control.
02-10-2009, 07:07 AM
#29
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RE: AMA or Private?
The fact is, a club becoming AMA makes the most sense for the land owner! How large a shovel do you guys use, when you determine your going to make a mountain out of a mole hill? Yes, pay attention to land use laws or other applicable laws! However, my guess is these laws are somewhat dfifferent (simpler), in Hampton, Iowa, then they are in Los Angeles, California!
I have seen or heard of flyers (people I actually know) of all experience levels becoming seriously injured when they unknowingly and unthinkingly stuck a body part into the prop arc! One would have bleed to death, had it not been for the quick thinking of his flying buddys that day. Just this fall one of my flying buddies was adjusting his carb and stuck a finger in the prop. By the time I got him to the hospital, he said he was feeling very light headed. I feel I have been lucky, for 41 years, I have not been seriously cut by a prop. I've also been in the machine trades for 28 years and not been injured, still, it only takes a single moment of not paying attention!
I have seen or heard of flyers (people I actually know) of all experience levels becoming seriously injured when they unknowingly and unthinkingly stuck a body part into the prop arc! One would have bleed to death, had it not been for the quick thinking of his flying buddys that day. Just this fall one of my flying buddies was adjusting his carb and stuck a finger in the prop. By the time I got him to the hospital, he said he was feeling very light headed. I feel I have been lucky, for 41 years, I have not been seriously cut by a prop. I've also been in the machine trades for 28 years and not been injured, still, it only takes a single moment of not paying attention!
02-10-2009, 09:15 AM
#30
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RE: AMA or Private?
ORIGINAL: Mode One
The fact is, a club becoming AMA makes the most sense for the land owner!
The fact is, a club becoming AMA makes the most sense for the land owner!
How large a shovel do you guys use, when you determine your going to make a mountain out of a mole hill?
I have seen or heard of flyers (people I actually know) of all experience levels becoming seriously injured when they unknowingly and unthinkingly stuck a body part into the prop arc! One would have bleed to death, had it not been for the quick thinking of his flying buddys that day. Just this fall one of my flying buddies was adjusting his carb and stuck a finger in the prop. By the time I got him to the hospital, he said he was feeling very light headed. I feel I have been lucky, for 41 years, I have not been seriously cut by a prop. I've also been in the machine trades for 28 years and not been injured, still, it only takes a single moment of not paying attention!
I’ve got a hunch plumberdeluxe will go the AMA route. Whatever he does I hope he goes through it with an attorney. And I hope he comes back in a couple years and tells us how it went.
02-10-2009, 10:17 AM
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RE: AMA or Private?
My club was created out of a very similar situation. Private land, private club, no AMA charter, but AMA Open membership is required to fly there. It's worked for 20+ years now.
02-10-2009, 11:24 AM
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RE: AMA or Private?
Because there were two paragraphs in my post, most readers would take this to mean: one may; or, may not be related to the other. The referance to people getting hurt in the second paragraph has nothing to do with the AMA!
If my statement: "The fact is, a club becoming AMA makes the most sense for the land owner", is not a fact, then show me the facts that make my statement wrong!
If my statement: "The fact is, a club becoming AMA makes the most sense for the land owner", is not a fact, then show me the facts that make my statement wrong!
02-10-2009, 12:26 PM
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RE: AMA or Private?
Lets not beat up Mode for his cut hand and hospital story.
He is trying to sell AMA,
and folks selling AMA just have a need to paint doom & gloom all over of this fun recreational hobby.
Not Modes fault, so lets just move on.
Folks do get insurance from insurance companies other than AMA.
Like that NY guy that used to tell us about the cheap Hartford flying insurance.
After all, this looks like we are just discussing how much and what brand of insurance the landowner should get for a field he wants to let folks fly at.
We are not chatting up how to get a bucket of money from AMA's Site Assistance program.
Nor are we talking about getting some Munciebucks to the landowner from AMA's Field Improvement deals.
Nope.
Insurance insurance doom gloom insurance.
If I were trying to sell the guy AMA insurance
I would be telling him about the thousands of Munciebucks he can get for his land with AMA,
rather than tales of horror & bancruptcy to fear him into some insurance purchase
He is trying to sell AMA,
and folks selling AMA just have a need to paint doom & gloom all over of this fun recreational hobby.
Not Modes fault, so lets just move on.
Folks do get insurance from insurance companies other than AMA.
Like that NY guy that used to tell us about the cheap Hartford flying insurance.
After all, this looks like we are just discussing how much and what brand of insurance the landowner should get for a field he wants to let folks fly at.
We are not chatting up how to get a bucket of money from AMA's Site Assistance program.
Nor are we talking about getting some Munciebucks to the landowner from AMA's Field Improvement deals.
Nope.
Insurance insurance doom gloom insurance.
If I were trying to sell the guy AMA insurance
I would be telling him about the thousands of Munciebucks he can get for his land with AMA,
rather than tales of horror & bancruptcy to fear him into some insurance purchase
02-10-2009, 01:06 PM
#34
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RE: AMA or Private?
Mon Feb 09 2009 5:41PM by [email protected]
If an AMA chartered club is flying on private land with the additional coverage for the (private) landowner and he (the land owner) lets a non-AMA flier fly will the landowner still be covered for damages resulting from the non-AMA flier? How about if the land owner is a public enetity such as a city or county park system?
************************************************** ************************************************** *****************************
Tue Feb 10 2009 12:47PM by LOIS MOCK
If it is privately owned and the non AMA member causes an accident there is no coverage.
If it is a city or county owned property the city or county is responsible if the non member causes an accident
If an AMA chartered club is flying on private land with the additional coverage for the (private) landowner and he (the land owner) lets a non-AMA flier fly will the landowner still be covered for damages resulting from the non-AMA flier? How about if the land owner is a public enetity such as a city or county park system?
************************************************** ************************************************** *****************************
Tue Feb 10 2009 12:47PM by LOIS MOCK
If it is privately owned and the non AMA member causes an accident there is no coverage.
If it is a city or county owned property the city or county is responsible if the non member causes an accident
02-10-2009, 01:11 PM
#35
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RE: AMA or Private?
<nevermind, missed a word in the post I was responding to>
Robo,
Having now the info you just posted,
would you say Muncie should change the Charter Kit text
to stop saying non-members are using coverage without paying their share?
Robo,
Having now the info you just posted,
would you say Muncie should change the Charter Kit text
to stop saying non-members are using coverage without paying their share?
02-10-2009, 01:57 PM
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RE: AMA or Private?
KidEpoxy, I think your insistance about my support of the AMA is some sort of dream you must have had. I understand it has it's problems, just like others see. However, I just don't see it being something to get my knickers in such a bunch over.
Stick your fingers in a prop, if that's what you feel you need to do and I will fight to the death for your right to do so.
Stick your fingers in a prop, if that's what you feel you need to do and I will fight to the death for your right to do so.
02-10-2009, 02:41 PM
#37
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RE: AMA or Private?
Stick your fingers in a prop, if that's what you feel you need to do and <....>
I dont see you answering the question of whether HQ should change the Charter Kit claims to match the insurance coverage.
As for drawing a parallel between lotsa folks selling AMA with doom & gloom,
and your post selling AMA with doom & gloom,
... well, yeah. I do see a parallel there.
This seems relevant to the guy wondering about chartering or not,
as others had brought up the Charter Kit text before I did, like post #10,
and there does seem to be some serious conflicting info.
02-10-2009, 04:03 PM
#38
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RE: AMA or Private?
The emphases on the prop thing, from my point of view, is my strong belief in your freedom to do so! There is no hostility meant; overt; or, otherwise.
Then: “I dont see you answering the question of whether HQ should change the Charter Kit claims to match the insurance coverageâ€. Is it required that I fight exactly the same battles as you? I mean, you know, I want to go flying; or, down in the basement and work on my planes; or, do something fun, sometimes!
Then: “I dont see you answering the question of whether HQ should change the Charter Kit claims to match the insurance coverageâ€. Is it required that I fight exactly the same battles as you? I mean, you know, I want to go flying; or, down in the basement and work on my planes; or, do something fun, sometimes!
02-10-2009, 05:05 PM
#39
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RE: AMA or Private?
Fighting battles?
I just asked if folks agree that the Charter Kit text conflicts with the insurance coverage...
I'm not asking you to start a petition or email flood anyone
or to take any action at all beyond posting
"yup, thats broke and needs fixin"
I just asked if folks agree that the Charter Kit text conflicts with the insurance coverage...
I'm not asking you to start a petition or email flood anyone
or to take any action at all beyond posting
"yup, thats broke and needs fixin"
02-10-2009, 07:59 PM
#40
RE: AMA or Private?
ORIGINAL: Hossfly
Plumberdeluxe, I will offer these thoughts simply to inform you of a case history. Background information strictly to use as You may see fit.
I fully owned a 100 acre flat farmland property held in a self-directed Trust. 13 years ago, I leased 30 acres to a club. 2 years later the club purchased the 30 acres at the price I had originally paid for it and I held the mortgage, originally at 6% for 5 years then to an annual interest of Prime-1, based on the Sep. yearly prime. Therefore I was simply a club member with no real say in how they managed it, except for some deed restrictions that I levied such as no flight patterns over the adjoining highway, no full-scale aircraft operations without specific permission from me one-on-one, AMA Charter with my Trust account as an insured, and a couple minor safety operations. For about 8 years things were fine.
Then a group of buddies joined the club and things have never been the same. They quickly jumped in and became the Board for the club. The club became their private flying site with 100 others paying the dues. For the past 4 years the club has been in membership decline. Now mind you this club enjoyed 5000 sq. ft. of steel over concrete shelter, water, electricity, and indoor toilets with a large kitchen area, along with paid mowing. The surrounding 70 acres were leased to a Hay farmer, along with 25 of the club's 30 acres which kept most taxes in agriculture, with no upkeep on either of our parts.
2&a1/2 years ago I was offered an attractive price for 20 acres adjoining the 30 acres all with highway frontage. I informed the Board that I was in a position to earn a neat profit, that if they wanted the 20 acres it was theirs for 70% of the offered price. The Board would not even bring the item before the club for discussion. Things got really tense. Finally I forced the issue, making myself a kind of enemy of most of that faction of the club. The club came up with a new "banker", paid me off, bought the 20 acres and the new banker really took them to the cleaners by manipulating both notes into one which gave him 50% of the equity in their old purchase.
This past fall, "Ike" traveled through, demolished all the shelter except the kitchen. In Nov. the club authorized $15,000 to rebuild the shelter. The Pres. in early Dec. gave a contractor $13,000 up front for a shelter to be done before Christmas. In Houston, TX, giving a contractor cash-up-front is about the same as using it for toilet paper. No shelter, no contractor efforts as of this past Wed.
Of course there was no insurance on the buildings.
Enough of that. All I do say is that if you own property and allow flying then YOU are the boss. If you try to be nice and allow a club to do something for themselves, then you may well be forced into an unpleasant situation. To protect yourself, I do suggest you be all business in dealing with toy-airplane folks and no matter what you give, most will not think it is anywhere enough.
ORIGINAL: plumberdeluxe
//SNIP//
Let me rephrase.
My property is private as I own it.
Thinking about starting a AMA charter here.
Looking for pros and cons of a move like this.
hope this helps
//SNIP//
Let me rephrase.
My property is private as I own it.
Thinking about starting a AMA charter here.
Looking for pros and cons of a move like this.
hope this helps
I fully owned a 100 acre flat farmland property held in a self-directed Trust. 13 years ago, I leased 30 acres to a club. 2 years later the club purchased the 30 acres at the price I had originally paid for it and I held the mortgage, originally at 6% for 5 years then to an annual interest of Prime-1, based on the Sep. yearly prime. Therefore I was simply a club member with no real say in how they managed it, except for some deed restrictions that I levied such as no flight patterns over the adjoining highway, no full-scale aircraft operations without specific permission from me one-on-one, AMA Charter with my Trust account as an insured, and a couple minor safety operations. For about 8 years things were fine.
Then a group of buddies joined the club and things have never been the same. They quickly jumped in and became the Board for the club. The club became their private flying site with 100 others paying the dues. For the past 4 years the club has been in membership decline. Now mind you this club enjoyed 5000 sq. ft. of steel over concrete shelter, water, electricity, and indoor toilets with a large kitchen area, along with paid mowing. The surrounding 70 acres were leased to a Hay farmer, along with 25 of the club's 30 acres which kept most taxes in agriculture, with no upkeep on either of our parts.
2&a1/2 years ago I was offered an attractive price for 20 acres adjoining the 30 acres all with highway frontage. I informed the Board that I was in a position to earn a neat profit, that if they wanted the 20 acres it was theirs for 70% of the offered price. The Board would not even bring the item before the club for discussion. Things got really tense. Finally I forced the issue, making myself a kind of enemy of most of that faction of the club. The club came up with a new "banker", paid me off, bought the 20 acres and the new banker really took them to the cleaners by manipulating both notes into one which gave him 50% of the equity in their old purchase.
This past fall, "Ike" traveled through, demolished all the shelter except the kitchen. In Nov. the club authorized $15,000 to rebuild the shelter. The Pres. in early Dec. gave a contractor $13,000 up front for a shelter to be done before Christmas. In Houston, TX, giving a contractor cash-up-front is about the same as using it for toilet paper. No shelter, no contractor efforts as of this past Wed.
Of course there was no insurance on the buildings.
Enough of that. All I do say is that if you own property and allow flying then YOU are the boss. If you try to be nice and allow a club to do something for themselves, then you may well be forced into an unpleasant situation. To protect yourself, I do suggest you be all business in dealing with toy-airplane folks and no matter what you give, most will not think it is anywhere enough.
on a side note, as a contractor (plumbing) i can say this with authority, anyone who gives a contractor cash up front for a project is an idiot. i wouldn't dream of taking cash up front. it ALWAYS makes for a bad situation. there is no argument that can dispute my opinion.
plumberdeluxe, sorry to divert the subject. sincerely, supreme mac daddy plumber.
02-10-2009, 08:14 PM
#41
RE: AMA or Private?
This almost sounds like an AMA club tonight.
Brings back memories.......................................... .............
I want all of you to give good input not bash one another.
We can all bash each other later.
This is an important thing for me, thus the thread
What is Muncie bucks?
I been out of the AMA since before they built the new Muncie site.
I left AMA because the flying was no fun with all the bickering.
I went private years ago and have not been to an AMA field since except for events.
Brings back memories.......................................... .............
I want all of you to give good input not bash one another.
We can all bash each other later.
This is an important thing for me, thus the thread
What is Muncie bucks?
I been out of the AMA since before they built the new Muncie site.
I left AMA because the flying was no fun with all the bickering.
I went private years ago and have not been to an AMA field since except for events.
02-10-2009, 08:34 PM
#42
RE: AMA or Private?
that brings up a good point. years ago i belonged to a club that had monthly meetings that we were supposed to attend. what a waste of time. fortunately the large, wealthy club i belong to now doesn't seem to think meetings are necessary. we just fly.
02-11-2009, 12:48 PM
#43
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RE: AMA or Private?
ORIGINAL: dhal22
that brings up a good point. years ago i belonged to a club that had monthly meetings that we were supposed to attend. what a waste of time. fortunately the large, wealthy club i belong to now doesn't seem to think meetings are necessary. we just fly.
that brings up a good point. years ago i belonged to a club that had monthly meetings that we were supposed to attend. what a waste of time. fortunately the large, wealthy club i belong to now doesn't seem to think meetings are necessary. we just fly.
02-11-2009, 03:38 PM
#44
RE: AMA or Private?
we vote online, polls are taken online, the board members are given judicial responsibility to make appropriate decisions. whatever, it's a great club, great facilities, great members, the waiting list to get in is a yr long, i don't get too involved, i just fly.
03-04-2009, 09:45 PM
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RE: AMA or Private?
ORIGINAL: plumberdeluxe
I am pondering opening it up to public flying and insuring it with AMA.
Looking for opinions whether to keep it like it is or change it to an AMA covered field.
I am pondering opening it up to public flying and insuring it with AMA.
Looking for opinions whether to keep it like it is or change it to an AMA covered field.
If I were you, that's the route I'd go for self-protection.
CR
04-06-2009, 07:50 PM
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RE: AMA or Private?
Plumber, as someone in a similar situation, I own my own flying field, and something you may also want to look into is forming a corporation, to help insulate yourself from liability.
It's what I did. My field is open to anyone, AMA or not. Our club The Badius Boys Flying Club Inc." is a 501 non profit corporation, to help protect the members also.
And what ever you decide, as the others have mentioned, get the best lawyer on the subject you can find. I'm now living in Florida, but the field is in Pennsylvania, you won't believe some of the things you have to consider in ownership, private especially.
Note I said above that my field is open to anyone, not just our club members. In PA at least, if you post no trespassing signs on your property, to try and keep out the riff- raff, you've opened the door to a lawsuit if somebody actually trespasses, and gets hurt somehow.
In PA putting up "NO TRESPASSING" signs are saying that you as a land owner are acknowledging that there are known hazardous conditions somewhere on your land.
Not putting them up eliminates somebody from suing you when they happen to get hurt trespassing.
Our club is a little different from any other club out there. It's made up of posters here on RCU, from across the US, Canada, OZ land, Japan, and a few other places.
We physically meet once a year at the field for a week+. Handling club and corp business along with the usual stuff. We also own our own website, that allows us to communicate and handle any situations that come up during the year.
Lastly all of our members know about our insurance coverage: " You get hurt or worse, we take the Kubota and bury your butt, divvy up your stuff and deny ever knowing you" So far no complaints from the ones we've buried.
Sorry just some humor to relieve all the seriousness, but you do need to be serious about covering your butt, somebody is always going to try and blame/sue you. Just remember the McDonald's coffee suit.
It's what I did. My field is open to anyone, AMA or not. Our club The Badius Boys Flying Club Inc." is a 501 non profit corporation, to help protect the members also.
And what ever you decide, as the others have mentioned, get the best lawyer on the subject you can find. I'm now living in Florida, but the field is in Pennsylvania, you won't believe some of the things you have to consider in ownership, private especially.
Note I said above that my field is open to anyone, not just our club members. In PA at least, if you post no trespassing signs on your property, to try and keep out the riff- raff, you've opened the door to a lawsuit if somebody actually trespasses, and gets hurt somehow.
In PA putting up "NO TRESPASSING" signs are saying that you as a land owner are acknowledging that there are known hazardous conditions somewhere on your land.
Not putting them up eliminates somebody from suing you when they happen to get hurt trespassing.
Our club is a little different from any other club out there. It's made up of posters here on RCU, from across the US, Canada, OZ land, Japan, and a few other places.
We physically meet once a year at the field for a week+. Handling club and corp business along with the usual stuff. We also own our own website, that allows us to communicate and handle any situations that come up during the year.
Lastly all of our members know about our insurance coverage: " You get hurt or worse, we take the Kubota and bury your butt, divvy up your stuff and deny ever knowing you" So far no complaints from the ones we've buried.
Sorry just some humor to relieve all the seriousness, but you do need to be serious about covering your butt, somebody is always going to try and blame/sue you. Just remember the McDonald's coffee suit.
