MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

And again, if you believe that the pricing of plans has to do with "Aeromodel Building grind[ing] to a halt" then you, too, are out of touch with reality.

"Boy, I'd build from plans if only the plans weren't so expensive!" That's something I've never heard before. Usually it's more along the lines of "I don't have the tools/time/desire/skill/dedication/space/interest." But hey, why worry about reality when we can upset ourselves over yet another slight from the AMA, right?

KidEpoxy

I dont buy them other magazines,
but from what I hear, they put 'free' plans in the magazine... back some years I bought a magazine that had a pull out plan.

Is it your position that they had no valid reasons to put plans in their magazine?
Or are there indeed valid reasons to give away a plan once in a while,
particularly for an academy that is supposed to be after promoting all aspects of aeromodeling above chasing profits.

Giving away a plan and having a 4-5 issue Build Along in MA would foster more aeroMODELING than continuing to do what is being done in this receding of building.

If AMA wants more of something, they subsidize it.
There are plenty of examples of it happening,
they can subsidize Building too.


Besides, if it is done as a
Who wants this plan, to take part in the MA build along?
then the actual cost of the program would be less than making & tube shipping 150k copies... or if the response is high enough do it as a MA pull-out. It dont have to be expensive.
.... particularly if some designer "donates" a plan to AMA for the program.



I've said the OP's idea for a free plan to generate more building was a good idea,
when did I say AMA was overcharging?
The OP made 2 points, I've talked about his second but havent commented on his first.

MikeL, you need to see if a guy actually said anything about a topic
before you slam his position on it with phrases like out of touch with reality.
I am very in touch with realty, my mother was a Realtor selling houses in Vegas.

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

It's one thing to claim it, it's another to actually be it. I don't expect those of you who frequent this forum to be able to see it, but man... what a sad bunch. Why do you all think this forum largely consists of just a handful of you all going round and round, chasing each others' tails with half-truths day in and day out? Gosh, could it be that you're all just a little out of touch? Out of touch enough that very few people in this vibrant community want anything to do with your particular detachments and delusions?

Quite possibly, though I'm sure the usual suspects will just claim that they care more than others.

squeakalong

My Feedback: (8)

MikeL...if you cannot, or will not, be willing to actually contribute anything of importance to this discussion, without making it personnal, kindly do us the favor of finding somewhere else to be. Thank you.

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

Ah, so only those that agree with you can contribute? I see.

How about you do something other than complain, such as suggest new ways for the AMA to successfully market their plans? You claim that there is a market out there being under-served, so define it, segment it, and draw up a plan for better serving each of those segments. Now, you'll need to know the actual costs of running the plans service: printing, licensing, staffing, inventory, marketing, and anything else involved. Of course, I'm assuming you already know those things, as it's very difficult to say that something is "way too high" without knowing the actual costs involved in running the operation. So share.

Otherwise, what are you other than someone who is living in their own little fantasy-land where kids clamor for plans, but just can't afford them?

squeakalong

My Feedback: (8)

No, Mike, you do not see... You, and anyone else, can not only disagree but are welcome in our country to state your thoughts. What you should not be doing as an adult is throwing up your thoughts in a personal way to those responding in this thread. Put your thoughts in a constructive manner and let them speak for themselves without the "fantasy-land" comments to those you don't even know. That's all that's being requested here; act like an adult.

To all those that have responded and offered thoughts on this topic I say thanks for caring enough to share your thoughts. It has been interesting as to the comments made and there have been some good ones so far.

Soft landings.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Nobody said that kids are clamoring for plans. This is just your version of what was said, your personal reality.

I scratch build on average 5 or 6 planes a year and have a closet full of mail order plans. None from the AMA. Why? It's a matter of principle with me, I've never felt that I should have to pay "street value" for AMA plans. I would rather support RCM or some independent merchant.
There is absolutely no way to know.....only the Almighty knows how many would be builders have been discouraged by the cost of the plans.
To pretend to know the unknowable is just not done by true Masters of Reality. [8D]

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Squeakalong, good topic! Through the years the AMA has featured a few planes that I'd like to build someday. It's quite a lot of fun when I come across a stash of magazines that pre-date my involvement. So much more exciting to create, explore and engineer than having the sport handed to us on a pre-packaged silver platter.

Minnreefer

Well Mike, I will say it

"Boy, I'd build from plans if only the plans weren't so expensive"

I currently have a set of plans for a plane that I am building, I have enough extra balsa to build 1 or 2 more planes from plans, but I really can't justify spending $20 on plans that once I look at, may not like that much. I probably should not even be in this hobby for financial reasons, but I am and I am trying to do things in this hobby that don't cost much. Building from plans is one of the ways that I can enjoy the hobby for little expense.

I don't want to get involved in the financials fo AMA, but plans is one way they might be able to give "perks' to members for the monopoly of model airplane insurance.

Just my thoughts

Jon

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

Heh... more bluster about "personal" comments, without any substance as to the questions I've asked you. Perhaps if you and those of your ilk took but a moment now and then to indulge the rest of us by addressing the realities involved rather than just complaining, you'd see few personal comments directed towards you. Food for thought, eh?

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

I can understand those thoughts, but if you can't justify spending $20 on plans, perhaps attaining plans through a commercial plans service isn't the right route for you? There are alternatives. Download them and take them to a printer. I doubt your costs will be less than $20, though. Trade them with others. Buy plans locally, from other modelers. Borrow them.

As an AMA member, I don't care to have my dues subsidize your desire to build from plans. The AMA's plans service serves an important function in preserving collections and keeping them available to the public. Their role is not to undercut others who make their livings distributing plans, to "give back" to members who are interested in plans but unable to afford them, or to provide "rewards" for membership. Ultimately, the plans service should be revenue neutral or profitable, so as to serve all AMA members.

If people can't see that, I can only ascribe their thoughts to personal desires to get something for less than the going market rate. That's unfortunate. It's equally unfortunate when said people attempt to dress up their selfishness by wrapping it up in a "do it for the children!" message.

KidEpoxy

Minnreefer-
If you can't justify spending $20 on plans,
perhaps attaining plans through a commercial plans service isn't the right route for you.
You should try using a non-profit aeromodeling academy rather than a commercial service out to make a buck off ya





Does anybody know-
Does AMA offer .dfx or other quality digital media of plans for download?
Wouldnt that be a cheaper way for AMA to get plans into aeromodelers hands?

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

The AMA is profiteering off the hard work of others. Does anyone here have any idea how much work it takes to design, test fly, refine, rebuild, re-fly, photograph, then submit a "magazine ready" text? In exchange for the glory of having this amount of work published, a pittance is paid out and the plan becomes property of the publisher for the rest of time. At some point it is safe to say that the plan has more than paid for itself and it is high time to make it a perk of membership. If the AMA could sell a single sheet, .40 sized plan for $10 shipping included, how much of a burden would that place on the membership at large?
More than likely, the revenue from the plan service doesn't cover the cost of coffee & doughnuts at HQ. Who knows, they might actually make more money [if not about the same] if the price was lowered [X(]!

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

It's quotes such as this that make me wonder how much time some of you have actually spent in the real world. Somehow many of you don't seem to know that "non-profit" does not mean free, subsidized, below-market, or that as a member you may be somehow more special than others. Y'all get tripped up over language that you plainly don't understand, using certain terms as buzz-words to feed each others' delusions. While it is at times entertaining, it certainly doesn't benefit any of you, nor does it benefit the RCU community, the AMA, AMA members, and the hobby as a whole.

This forum could be useful, but that would require removing a half-dozen or so of you from it. That's probably not such a bad idea, is it?

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

Workers of the world, unite! The bourgeois have profited off of your labor and works for too long! Rise up, workers of the world, and take back that which is yours! Rise up, and take back The People's plans!

Communism went out of style a couple of decades back, but it's refreshing to see some of you dusting it off now and then.

LuftwaffeOberst

AMA Pricing way too high? I think not. Have any of you read the 2008 accident report? AMA had to settle millions since 1998 due to accidents. I'd rather pay $100 a year than having the risk of being sued if my plane goes out of control for any reason and a spectator becomes hurt or worse.

When I fly... I try to be safe, but at times I can't be safe enough no matter what I or my Club can do. But I do think it would be cool if AMA would give safe flying credits... just like our car insurance does for safe drivers so they get a % off. In these hard times a few of us could use a small discount. JMHO

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

........a little bit of knowledge is dangerous.

Minnreefer

A few things that come to my mind, I will fully admit, that I have not done any research as to AMA's budget, or look at where they have their expenses, it would be intersting to see how many plans they sell, what are the cost associated with those plans, they may have to pay a "royality" or something like it to the plans designer, or other cost. I believe that we won't see the breakdown for the plans service. Maybe AMA is already loosing money on the plans service. I probably should not be discussing this issue, because I don't have the information to discuss the issue with knowledge.

I just chimed in because I am like many people on a very tight budget last year and this year, I am trying to limit my spending to $400 a year, and that goes pretty fast to club dues, required AMA dues, fuel etc. I personally think of AMA as like my local city goverment, I know how much I give them, I know what services they offer, I don't like paying the bills, but I do, I do feel that I and others have the right to ask where my money is going and to see if they can reduce cost anywhere, but....


It might be better if there was an alternitive to AMA, but that may be a more costly alternitive also.


I guess I just need to win the powerball, or come up with the next great invention so I can '[[[[[[[/'/

804

My Feedback: (1)

This has occurred to me before too. The question is, which half-dozen: the complainers, or those who complain about the complainers?

This forum is here to discuss issues. Issues most often are of a complaint nature. Discuss the issue only, interesting debate can happen. Complain about the fact the issue is brought up, personal attacks happen, thread gets shut down. BTDT, guilty.

Very simple advice: don't like what you see, switch the channel.

Topic is about AMA plan pricing. After reading all the above posts, I too think AMA could do better in promoting model airplane building through it's plans service.

I'm not a builder, yet, but if something interesting to me comes along, I might change my mind.

squeakalong

My Feedback: (8)

"...AMA could do better in promoting model airplane building through it's plan service." Therein is the key idea behind the start of this thread. Thanks, 804.

Soft landings.

KidEpoxy

804
If you saw a decent plane done as a free MA Pullout Plan and 4Month Build Along feature,
would that help motivate you to give building a try?

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Maybe kill two birds with one stone...hmmm... two less things to argue about in this forum???

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

To be realistic and practical about it, I can see that including fold out plans is a waste 99.9% of the time. There was probably a time way back when where a representative amount of guys eagerly waited for the next plan to show up. I remember building from the 1/2 or full page size magazine plans, either transposing it myself, or going down to a blueprint shop. Nowadays we have Kinkos and you can spit out a 1 page plan for $5. I think having the plans available upon request makes sense, I would hate to think that 149,998 out of 150,000 fold out magazine plans go up the stove pipe.

Stickbuilder

I do not think that the AMA plans service is priced out of reason. In fact, I think that they are a bargain. Take for example, the plan that they offer for the Waco YMF 3/5 in 1/5th scale. The plan is one of the higher price plans that they offer, but again it is a very complex plan and it comes complete with the parts templates that have heretofore not been offered with this model. It is a bargain, when you consider that the few remaining Pica kits have been bringing in excess of $400.00, and that's for old wood and suspect plastic parts. You can now cut your own kit accurately, and order the fiberglass parts, new from one of the molding companies, and still come out ahead. Why snivel over a few bucks if you can get the plan set that you want?

Bill, AMA 4720
Waco Brother #1

Bob Mitchell

That's probably the best comment I've seen so far in this thread, and I don't mean it sarcastically or in a critical manner. The fact is that without knowing the cost structure that AMA is operating under it's not really possible for us to know if AMA is making money, losing money or breaking even on the program.

Beyond that, IMO the real meat of the discussion should concern what AMA's goal is with their plans program. Has it been designed as a revenue stream, or a break even prospect, or a "loss leader" to encourage more building? What are they trying to accomplish?

Although I'm not a builder (yet, anyway) it seems to me that given the overall mission that AMA has stated as their goal, encouraging people to build by making plans available at the best possible price, without undercuting the development process is the way for them to go. If that means that some of my dues is subsidizing the overall distribution process, then so be it. I'm a sport flyer.....my dues are "subsidizing" many aspects of AMA activities.

I hear that. I bought a nearly completed giant scale Cessna Skylane at a swap meet last November and haven't put it in the air yet. I'm breaking down and stripping servos and receiver out of another plane at this point to get it in the air for the lowest out of pocket cost that I can. My preference would be to not do that, but it'll reduce current costs by about $150 or so.