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AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?

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AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?

Old 02-18-2009, 09:17 PM
  #126  
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Default RE: AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?


ORIGINAL: combatpigg

sorry, something is "going on" with RCU........
Must be. I think the ghost of Jim Morrison posted under your account a little bit ago,. It's gone now. Weird.[X(]
Old 02-18-2009, 09:31 PM
  #127  
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Default RE: AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?


[quote]ORIGINAL: MikeL


ORIGINAL: Robotech

How about you step off that high horse for a moment and tell us what you are for in regards to the plans service
My horse isn't so high. It's that so many of the other horses in here are so low. You guys are pretty similar to a bunch of old ladies in a church basement, gossiping and imagining the outside world while everyone else goes about their business. If you can't realize that, step back and take an objective look at this AMA forum. It's a mess, entirely because of folks like yourself


people are strange when you're a stranger..........
faces look ugly when you're alone......................
Old 02-19-2009, 02:38 AM
  #128  
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Default RE: AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?


ORIGINAL: combatpigg

Herr Ober, I was just mostly being facetious [a jolly jokester] by saying that. I do know of a guy in Canada who does mill his own balsa. I agree with you about scratch building, if I have to knife out my own parts......it's a scratch build. If the "21st century" type guys have to CAD their parts, then have them LASER cut, that is also a scratch build in my eyes. I've been doing this stuff long enough, I don't need anyone to tell me what a scratch build really is.

Understood.
Old 02-19-2009, 05:28 AM
  #129  
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Default RE: AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?

ORIGINAL: combatpigg

Herr Ober, I was just mostly being facetious [a jolly jokester] by saying that. I do know of a guy in Canada who does mill his own balsa. I agree with you about scratch building, if I have to knife out my own parts......it's a scratch build. If the "21st century" type guys have to CAD their parts, then have them LASER cut, that is also a scratch build in my eyes. I've been doing this stuff long enough, I don't need anyone to tell me what a scratch build really is.
Pig,

Don't want to sound like a purist, but if you did not draw your own, you are not a scratch builder. Here's the way it works, and this is the, "Time-honored", definition of each.....

1. ARF or RTF: Buys a model either built by someone else, or is produced as a set of sub-assemblies that require minimal assembly to be able to fly.

2. Kit builder: One who purchases a set of plans, and the pre cut, or deliniated parts, and builds the model from these parts and plan.

3. Plan builder: One who purchases, or pirates the plans which were drawn by someone else, and cuts his own parts, and builds from these plans. (note) These plans are the property of the person who drew the plan, and if you have a set that was not bought and paid for, it is piracy, much like copying a movie, or a song from another disk, record, tape or film. It is the intelluctial property of the drafting entity, and as such is his property. You are licensed to use the plan, but not to make copies to distribute to others. *

4. Scratch builder: One who draws his own plans, and cuts his own parts, and builds from these plans that he has drawn.

If you order a set of plans, and have a cutting service cut your parts, you are still kit building, since the parts were cut to the plan specifications, and you are sent what is in effect, a kit.

Hope this clears up the misconceptions.

Bill, AMA 4720
Waco Brother #1

* When L.M. Cox gave the Pica plans for the Waco UMF to the AMA a few years ago, these plans became the property of the AMA. They had become the property of Cox, when they bought the inventory list of Pica. The Plans were not viable, since Pica, nor Cox had ever offered the parts as a drawing, or as a template. There was not any viable method of cutting the parts to be able to build that kit. I made the parts templates from an existing virgin kit, and have allowed the AMA to include them when a plan of this model is ordered. The templates are copyrighted and all rights are reserved. In short, they belong to me, although they are available without limitation to members of the Waco Brotherhood. How can this be, when they are simply templates associated with someone elses plan? It's simple. They never existed before I drew them.

To put a point on it, if you order a set of these plans from the AMA, and make a copy of the templates and give them to someone else, you are stealing from me, since you did not have my permission to do so.

Even though the AMA has been granted permission to include these templates to the purchaser at no additional cost, they remain my property, even though all they do is to add value to the plan that you are purchasing.

Bill
Old 02-19-2009, 01:12 PM
  #130  
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Default RE: AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?

Bill, I'm sure you can [by now] draw up one of those big planes of yours in your sleep, you've got all the engineering memerorized, I'll bet. But if I asked you to draw up a competitive design for .15 power [or something else you haven't taken on in awhile], I'll also bet that you would need to take a peek at other competitive designs to see where you could save an ounce. By the strictest definition of scratch build, if you borrow any ideas or engineering from another design, you would have violated the sanctity of that term.
There is very little left that anyone can take full credit for, just different ways to package what is basically the same plane.

If I do a 100% faithfull 1/12th takeoff of a F-16 with the help of my 2 inch thick book on F-16s....what has been accomplished there. Same goes for any other scale project, they aren't scratch builds, just faithfull copies that any Yayhoo with a scanner wand can whip out.
Old 02-19-2009, 01:32 PM
  #131  
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Default RE: AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?


ORIGINAL: combatpigg

Bill, I'm sure you can [by now] draw up one of those big planes of yours in your sleep, you've got all the engineering memerorized, I'll bet. But if I asked you to draw up a competitive design for .15 power [or something else you haven't taken on in awhile], I'll also bet that you would need to take a peek at other competitive designs to see where you could save an ounce. By the strictest definition of scratch build, if you borrow any ideas or engineering from another design, you would have violated the sanctity of that term.
There is very little left that anyone can take full credit for, just different ways to package what is basically the same plane.

If I do a 100% faithfull 1/12th takeoff of a F-16 with the help of my 2 inch thick book on F-16s....what has been accomplished there. Same goes for any other scale project, they aren't scratch builds, just faithfull copies that any Yayhoo with a scanner wand can whip out.

I think Bill might agree:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

There is a simple alternative to paying what you think is too much for a published plan. Draw your own. I'm currently drawing my own plan for a 27% YMF, and it will be derived from the factory blueprint that I have, so the scale should be on the money. If I can do it, there is no reason that you can't.

Probably the only original model was a Spacewalker
Old 02-19-2009, 01:58 PM
  #132  
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Ok guys, we're getting a bit sidetracked here. Discussing the merits of building from plans vs. scratch building it getting off topic of the AMA Plans service. Let's please bring the conversation back to that.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Ken
Old 02-19-2009, 07:41 PM
  #133  
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Default RE: AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?

You say the plans at the AMA website are WAY TOO HIGH! The question then had to become: The plans are to high in comparison to who else's plans? Only two people did a little leg work to see how AMA's plan service prices were in comparison to others. Even though it was requested that others do a little research to maybe take some of the possible bias out of the picture, it would appear no body felt the need. This flipped the topic to; We should be getting free plans, this will get more people to build model airplanes. Can I ask, if we can't get them to build kits, how on Earth are we going to get them to build from scratch?

Is there any other angle we can come at this topic from; or, has it run its' course?

Next one that posts looses!
Old 02-19-2009, 07:43 PM
  #134  
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Default RE: AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?

Hi, it's me again, the Central Scaaroowtinizer! I lost!!
Old 02-19-2009, 08:09 PM
  #135  
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Default RE: AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?

Howz this for a concept.....?

If you don't change nothin'.......
then nothin' will ever change.
Old 02-20-2009, 01:09 AM
  #136  
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Default RE: AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?

Change for the sake of change? Great. Want to buy some hope?
Old 02-20-2009, 02:21 AM
  #137  
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Default RE: AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?

Hard to believe this thread continues. The price of anything elective, AMA plans or whatever is purely subjective. Buy or don't buy...sure as the sun will rise, the means will justify the ends.



Now, if we were talking philosophically a case could be made both ways. I think the price is just fine since at their price I probably won't buy any...or maybe I will...who knows...either way it doesn't matter...I am waiting for Sticks Waco plans!
Old 02-21-2009, 02:15 AM
  #138  
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Default RE: AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?

Wow, just read the entire thread. Wanted to see some commentary about AMA membership, and got a load here. I just called the AMA today to see if I could reinstate my old number, 185289, after an almost 20 year absence. They seemed pretty receptive to letting me do that. I've never built from plans, but have built a couple kits and have a Mojo 40 kit sitting on my bench, awaiting glue. ARF's are great, cuz I like to fly, but I can sure understand the concept of wanting to sell plans to promote modeling. Don't really care if the AMA makes or loses money on plans, but I surely can support the concept that the AMA should be promoting modeling. I think the concept that the AMA does this thru a free plan and build-along storyline in the magazine is a great idea. I don't care if my dues subsidize that, because we need a few people to start there and possibly become lifelong members.
Old 02-21-2009, 06:46 AM
  #139  
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Default RE: AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?

Maybe we think it seems a good idea that the AMA give one plan a year to every member as a part of the membership package. This is done, like you say, in an effort to promote building. How does the idea get from here on RCU, to the AMA and inacted?
Old 02-21-2009, 12:00 PM
  #140  
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Default RE: AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?

There are AMA lurkers here all the time. I'll bet a dollar that one of them will spot this thread and then take full credit for the novel idea.
Old 02-21-2009, 04:09 PM
  #141  
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Default RE: AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?

I order a fair amount of plans and they don't appear to be higher than most others and in fact cheaper than a lot.

Giving everyone a set free every year sounds really undoable because people who had no thought in their life from building from plans would order a set anyway.

As it is doesn't the designer get a cut or does the AMA own the rights to all it's plans 100% ?
Old 02-21-2009, 04:47 PM
  #142  
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Default RE: AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?

After you buy the plan and prove you built the model then you could apply for a 50% discount. That would separate the sheep from the goats. And give real modelers a break.
Old 02-21-2009, 04:53 PM
  #143  
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Default RE: AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?

I'll just wrap up and say the price of plans is not what's stopping people from building planes from plans. Now you can argue wether the AMA should make money on them but let's not forget the equipment to produce the plans (or copy) is not free/cheap and neither is the person who has to do it and ship them.
Old 02-21-2009, 05:37 PM
  #144  
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Default RE: AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?

Just a thought and one for the Kid! How bout a choice... plan(s) or the magazine? Maybe similar costs...some don't like the mag but would love to have plans.
Old 02-21-2009, 06:39 PM
  #145  
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Default RE: AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?

I'd like some glow fuel in leu plans.
Old 02-21-2009, 07:35 PM
  #146  
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Default RE: AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?

I would be surprised if they sold more than 3 plans per day on average.
Old 02-21-2009, 09:39 PM
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Default RE: AMA Plan Pricing - Way Too High?


ORIGINAL: MikeL

I'd like some glow fuel in leu plans.
You just can't make some people happy...you can either have the nitro, methanol or the oil. Quit trying to be so greedy.

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