What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
04-13-2009, 07:22 PM
#126
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
ORIGINAL: Blue_Sky
I agree completely 804.
The trouble is, not everyone is as "gentlemanly" as I am, hence I'm heavily insured.
ORIGINAL: 804
Or we can side-step all this "relativity" and street lawyering and worrying about fantasy scenarios, and do the rational and gentlemanly thing.
If you bring it, prepare to lose it and quit sniveling about it.
If you can afford to buy it, you can afford to lose it.
It's simple, and it's fair.
It's been done in the racing world forever, and it works.
Or we can side-step all this "relativity" and street lawyering and worrying about fantasy scenarios, and do the rational and gentlemanly thing.
If you bring it, prepare to lose it and quit sniveling about it.
If you can afford to buy it, you can afford to lose it.
It's simple, and it's fair.
It's been done in the racing world forever, and it works.
The trouble is, not everyone is as "gentlemanly" as I am, hence I'm heavily insured.
To me, this is all about attitude, or the lack thereof. You seem to have a good one.
All this talk about who's to blame, who's gonna pay just grates on me.
I've been in one lawsuit in my 52 years, a family deal I got dragged into. I hated it then, and have been sorry for it since. Luckily no lasting harm seems to have come of it.
Btw, sorry for the loss of your plane the other day.
Couple of years ago, me and my flying buddy mid-aired, mine was destroyed. We laughed, went to lunch, came back and kept flying. No talk of who owes who. Never been brought up since.
04-13-2009, 07:37 PM
#127
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
ORIGINAL: Blue_Sky
Where does that leave the 19-yr-old working at McDonald's? I'm not an attorney but as I said before it's unlikely a case such as "expensive airplane destroyed sitting in the pits" would ever make it to court.
Where does that leave the 19-yr-old working at McDonald's? I'm not an attorney but as I said before it's unlikely a case such as "expensive airplane destroyed sitting in the pits" would ever make it to court.
So, if I'm 19 years old I wouldn't worry about it because most of us are already responsibly paying for insurance (our premiums include the fact the 19-yr-old is out there) that lets the 19-yr-old off the hook.
04-13-2009, 07:54 PM
#128
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
ORIGINAL: 804
Or we can side-step all this "relativity" and street lawyering and worrying about fantasy scenarios, and do the rational and gentlemanly thing.
If you bring it, prepare to lose it and quit sniveling about it.
If you can afford to buy it, you can afford to lose it.
It's simple, and it's fair.
It's been done in the racing world forever, and it works.
Everything we've covered here about who's to blame and who's gonna pay and whose insurance policy, blah-blah-blah, is rooted in one of the fundamental problems with our society. Lawyers are taking over, and we are letting them!
Or we can side-step all this "relativity" and street lawyering and worrying about fantasy scenarios, and do the rational and gentlemanly thing.
If you bring it, prepare to lose it and quit sniveling about it.
If you can afford to buy it, you can afford to lose it.
It's simple, and it's fair.
It's been done in the racing world forever, and it works.
Everything we've covered here about who's to blame and who's gonna pay and whose insurance policy, blah-blah-blah, is rooted in one of the fundamental problems with our society. Lawyers are taking over, and we are letting them!
That's not an insurance issue, or even a racing issue, for that matter. It's a matter of taking responsiblity for hurting someone or damaging their property.
The "racing" scenario holds if we're talking about mid-air's. Probably holds for the pits and starting bench areas. Doesn't hold, IMO for areas further removed as I've mentioned a couple of times. That would be like saying that one racing team isn't responsible for damage to another team's car back in the garage area, well away from the track and pits. My guess here is that the damaged car's owner or crew chief wouldn't just write that off as "well, that's racing".
04-13-2009, 07:57 PM
#129
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
ORIGINAL: combatpigg
I'm glad this topic caught my attention and brought awareness to me about what could happen. This would be a good topic to see the AMA magazine address as a word to the wise.
I'm glad this topic caught my attention and brought awareness to me about what could happen. This would be a good topic to see the AMA magazine address as a word to the wise.
04-13-2009, 08:41 PM
#130
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
ORIGINAL: Bob Mitchell
Perhaps I'm not reading you right here, but that sounds to me as if you're indicating that he really doesn't have to worry about his actions because he's young, has no assets and probably not much income. If so, then I strongly disagree. If our society needs anything, it's that we foster the idea that we all are responsible for our own actions, particularly if we injure someone or damage their property as a result of our actions.
ORIGINAL: Blue_Sky
So, if I'm 19 years old I wouldn't worry about it because most of us are already responsibly paying for insurance (our premiums include the fact the 19-yr-old is out there) that lets the 19-yr-old off the hook.
So, if I'm 19 years old I wouldn't worry about it because most of us are already responsibly paying for insurance (our premiums include the fact the 19-yr-old is out there) that lets the 19-yr-old off the hook.
The very opposite is true. If you knew me, you'd know I'm as old school as you've ever seen regarding assuming responsibility.
We're painting broad strokes at times in this thread. The reality is, if a 19-yr-old crashed his airplane into an expensive airplane an insurance company would not spend 5K-10K or more for their lawyers to go after the kid in court. Additionally, anyone making a claim can expect their premiums to increase, which is why it would be interesting to hear general details on the lawsuit Keith mentioned. If Keith can't provide details, no big deal.
Bottom line, listen up all you kids out there! If you crash your airplane and also destroy a $20,000 airplane it's guaranteed there will be some sort of grief in your life. By the same token, all the guys taking $20,000 airplanes can be guaranteed of grief if their plane is destroyed in the pits.
It's grief both ways, which is why the 804 method is the best, and it's also why AMA insurance wisely does not cover airplanes in the pits.
04-13-2009, 08:45 PM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
ORIGINAL: 804
Btw, sorry for the loss of your plane the other day.
Couple of years ago, me and my flying buddy mid-aired, mine was destroyed. We laughed, went to lunch, came back and kept flying. No talk of who owes who. Never been brought up since.
Btw, sorry for the loss of your plane the other day.
Couple of years ago, me and my flying buddy mid-aired, mine was destroyed. We laughed, went to lunch, came back and kept flying. No talk of who owes who. Never been brought up since.
04-13-2009, 09:38 PM
#132
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
ORIGINAL: Bob Mitchell
Actually, I think the fundamental problem is one of not talking responsibility for our own actions. My primary point here is that while we certainly do assume the risk of losing a plane while flying it, even if someone else hits it, that we aren't assuming risk at other points in the process such as sitting in a spectator area with our plane next to the chair we're sitting. If, at that point, someone hurts me or damages my property, then IMO they are responsible......for both. I would consider myself responsible were the positions reversed.
That's not an insurance issue, or even a racing issue, for that matter. It's a matter of taking responsiblity for hurting someone or damaging their property.
The "racing" scenario holds if we're talking about mid-air's. Probably holds for the pits and starting bench areas. Doesn't hold, IMO for areas further removed as I've mentioned a couple of times. That would be like saying that one racing team isn't responsible for damage to another team's car back in the garage area, well away from the track and pits. My guess here is that the damaged car's owner or crew chief wouldn't just write that off as "well, that's racing".
ORIGINAL: 804
Or we can side-step all this "relativity" and street lawyering and worrying about fantasy scenarios, and do the rational and gentlemanly thing.
If you bring it, prepare to lose it and quit sniveling about it.
If you can afford to buy it, you can afford to lose it.
It's simple, and it's fair.
It's been done in the racing world forever, and it works.
Everything we've covered here about who's to blame and who's gonna pay and whose insurance policy, blah-blah-blah, is rooted in one of the fundamental problems with our society. Lawyers are taking over, and we are letting them!
Or we can side-step all this "relativity" and street lawyering and worrying about fantasy scenarios, and do the rational and gentlemanly thing.
If you bring it, prepare to lose it and quit sniveling about it.
If you can afford to buy it, you can afford to lose it.
It's simple, and it's fair.
It's been done in the racing world forever, and it works.
Everything we've covered here about who's to blame and who's gonna pay and whose insurance policy, blah-blah-blah, is rooted in one of the fundamental problems with our society. Lawyers are taking over, and we are letting them!
That's not an insurance issue, or even a racing issue, for that matter. It's a matter of taking responsiblity for hurting someone or damaging their property.
The "racing" scenario holds if we're talking about mid-air's. Probably holds for the pits and starting bench areas. Doesn't hold, IMO for areas further removed as I've mentioned a couple of times. That would be like saying that one racing team isn't responsible for damage to another team's car back in the garage area, well away from the track and pits. My guess here is that the damaged car's owner or crew chief wouldn't just write that off as "well, that's racing".
At most flying clubs, I would guess the same is not true. At least, I've never seen anything like a 400 foot tall fence.
I would think a better analogy would be cars entering or leaving the pits. As you well know, accidents happen there quite frequently. "I was jus' sittin' there in the box gettin' new tars, and that 44 car hit me".
Is there a particular point, or line, behind which racecars are insured? I don't know.
How about at the club field. If mid-airs aren't covered, and maybe planes in the start-up and taxiing area are exempt, just where exactly is that line? How the heck far can an out-of-control model plane travel?
04-13-2009, 09:49 PM
#133
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
Forget the mythical 20k airplane. Forget the mythical 19 year RC pilot living in abject poverty. Forget the insurance with a deductible to high to help and too much trouble to mess with. Its just grown men. And one of them is sitting with his friends and drinking a soda when the plane at his feet explodes into toothpicks.
Should the man that did this offer to pay?
Should the man that did this offer to pay?
04-13-2009, 10:05 PM
#135
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
I agree people should be responsible for their actions, but when someone knowingly takes their 10k plane to a field where toy airplanes are buzzing around flown by sometimes barely capable self taught pilots, isn't that in itself an "action" they should be responsible for?
04-13-2009, 10:10 PM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
Its just grown men. And one of them is sitting with his friends and drinking a soda when the plane at his feet explodes into toothpicks.
Should the man that did this offer to pay?
Should the man that did this offer to pay?
Personal responsibility to do the right thing.
04-13-2009, 10:14 PM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
I think so. Some find it rude but a fellow pilot at our field puts his 27% extra in his trailer when a certain older fella flies. I think that if your worried about the safety of your stuff then you should take preventive measures to protect it. I agree with his actions and will do the same when I bring my 33% to the field. I have never owned a plane worth more than 1200.00 until now. I agree that you are responsible for your own actions.
Kevin
Kevin
04-13-2009, 10:20 PM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
EddyC
If YOU crashed into my cox049 homebuilt plane in the parkinglot while I'm unloading my car,
and when you hear it was $10 of balsa to make it
wouldnt you say
"Oh man, It lost an aileron and rolled out of control... and I'm really sorry bout your plane...
Here's a $20 to replace the $10balsa and get yourself a 6pack of RedhookESB on me."
If YOU crashed into my cox049 homebuilt plane in the parkinglot while I'm unloading my car,
and when you hear it was $10 of balsa to make it
wouldnt you say
"Oh man, It lost an aileron and rolled out of control... and I'm really sorry bout your plane...
Here's a $20 to replace the $10balsa and get yourself a 6pack of RedhookESB on me."
04-13-2009, 10:36 PM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
ORIGINAL: PilotFighter
Forget the mythical 20k airplane. Forget the mythical 19 year RC pilot living in abject poverty. Forget the insurance with a deductible to high to help and too much trouble to mess with. Its just grown men. And one of them is sitting with his friends and drinking a soda when the plane at his feet explodes into toothpicks.
Should the man that did this offer to pay?
Forget the mythical 20k airplane. Forget the mythical 19 year RC pilot living in abject poverty. Forget the insurance with a deductible to high to help and too much trouble to mess with. Its just grown men. And one of them is sitting with his friends and drinking a soda when the plane at his feet explodes into toothpicks.
Should the man that did this offer to pay?
The answer is of course yes.
So now let's have a show of hands of those that think they aren't responsible for their actions.
How about a show of hands of those that couldn't cover a loss. And for those guys, this is what this thread is all about.
04-13-2009, 10:55 PM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
Bob, as you surmised, it would not be appropriate for me to comment on the suit here. Not because I am a party to it or really involved in any way, but it would be horribly unfair to drag the individuals involved through this forum.
Actually there have been suits for many years ... one in Ohio back in the 80's actually led to the inclusion of the wording providing coverage to model aircraft in most current homeowners policies ... so not all suits are bad.
One other point I have mentioned before in this forum is that the AMA insurance doesn't derive its value by providing coverage to individuals, as most of us have homeowners or tenants policies that do that and come into play before the AMA insurance. It is the primary coverage they give to clubs and particularly site owners that make it possible for us to have places to fly. Without AMA insurance, we would have far fewer model airfields.
The idea of an insurance topic in the AMA publication isn't a bad one .... maybe a quiz to test everyone's knowledge and make it a little more interesting? There are some nooks and crannies (like parked airplanes) that I'll bet not too many people know about.
Actually there have been suits for many years ... one in Ohio back in the 80's actually led to the inclusion of the wording providing coverage to model aircraft in most current homeowners policies ... so not all suits are bad.
One other point I have mentioned before in this forum is that the AMA insurance doesn't derive its value by providing coverage to individuals, as most of us have homeowners or tenants policies that do that and come into play before the AMA insurance. It is the primary coverage they give to clubs and particularly site owners that make it possible for us to have places to fly. Without AMA insurance, we would have far fewer model airfields.
The idea of an insurance topic in the AMA publication isn't a bad one .... maybe a quiz to test everyone's knowledge and make it a little more interesting? There are some nooks and crannies (like parked airplanes) that I'll bet not too many people know about.
04-13-2009, 10:57 PM
#143
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
KidEpoxy
Sure I would. If I crashed into the pits and took out someones plane I would offer to pay whatever it took to make it right up to a point. If someone crashed into my airplane I would not demand they pay but would gratefully accept if they offered to pay provided I thought it wouldn't strap him. This is all assuming no negligent behavior (hovering over the pits, etc.)
But if some guy unloads a mega dollar plane while I'm flying my 40 sport and I crash into it and he says "Hey, you owe me ten grand" I'll tell him "Sorry, I don't spend that kind of money on model airplanes, you do that's your choice."
And if I ever do end up getting a big buck plane the only time I would demand someone pay for it is if they were doing something negligent. i.e. Drunk, hovering over the pits, letting their kids run around and stomp on it etc.
Sure I would. If I crashed into the pits and took out someones plane I would offer to pay whatever it took to make it right up to a point. If someone crashed into my airplane I would not demand they pay but would gratefully accept if they offered to pay provided I thought it wouldn't strap him. This is all assuming no negligent behavior (hovering over the pits, etc.)
But if some guy unloads a mega dollar plane while I'm flying my 40 sport and I crash into it and he says "Hey, you owe me ten grand" I'll tell him "Sorry, I don't spend that kind of money on model airplanes, you do that's your choice."
And if I ever do end up getting a big buck plane the only time I would demand someone pay for it is if they were doing something negligent. i.e. Drunk, hovering over the pits, letting their kids run around and stomp on it etc.
04-13-2009, 10:58 PM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
ORIGINAL: 2fast
I would be honored to fly anytime and anywhere with CombatPigg, Blue Sky and 804 as they have the true spirit of modeling in their blood.
I would be honored to fly anytime and anywhere with CombatPigg, Blue Sky and 804 as they have the true spirit of modeling in their blood.
04-13-2009, 11:18 PM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf
Gotcha!
ORIGINAL: 2fast
I would be honored to fly anytime and anywhere with CombatPigg, Blue Sky and 804 as they have the true spirit of modeling in their blood.
I would be honored to fly anytime and anywhere with CombatPigg, Blue Sky and 804 as they have the true spirit of modeling in their blood.
But don't come flying with me just because we don't care about how much value we have in our airplanes. I loved that plane lost Friday. It's deeper than that and hopefully this thread gets that point across.
04-13-2009, 11:24 PM
#147
RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
The idea of an insurance topic in the AMA publication isn't a bad one .... maybe a quiz to test everyone's knowledge and make it a little more interesting? There are some nooks and crannies (like parked airplanes) that I'll bet not too many people know about.
I would guess that if the majority of AMA members knew there was no AMA coverage for hitting a parked model there would be an uproar about it, As far
as to how munch a model costs I dont see what that has to do with anything people pay big bucks for models because if you want a certain type of model
you have pay what it costs. It just so happens that many models that you see every day at many flying sites are to expensive to replace comfortably
for the avarage person That is why the AMA should insure most any liabilty in connection with model operation.
04-14-2009, 01:32 AM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
A little perspective on the issue. THis is from the most recent AMA Insurance Summary (Document 500-Q)
150,000 or so members, God knows how many flights per year and AMA averages 45 claims per year. 30 for property damage.
Around 45 liability claims annually are reported to AMA. These are both bodily injury (injury) and property damage (damage) claims. Injury claims typically involve fellow AMA members actively involved in modeling rather than spectators or bystanders. Damage claims are usually minor damage to vehicles in parking areas caused by an errant aircraft. Of the 45 claims reported annually, approximately 30 are property damage and 15 are bodily injury claims.
04-14-2009, 04:39 AM
#149
RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
I've been silent on this until now. I'll share my feelings on this issue. The opinions are mine, and if you disagree with them then so be it.
If you are involved in a mid-air, no foul, no fault. It's just a hazard of flying model airplanes, unless there is obvious negligence, such as hovering over the runway while the pattern is full.
If you hit a model that is parked, and is not under the radio guidance of the pilot, then pay up. You screwed up and lost control of your plane, while the owner of the parked plane was innocent of any negligence.
It's that simple. This can be a very expensive hobby, and if you can't afford to replace what you damage, then stay home.
Bill, AMA 4720
If you are involved in a mid-air, no foul, no fault. It's just a hazard of flying model airplanes, unless there is obvious negligence, such as hovering over the runway while the pattern is full.
If you hit a model that is parked, and is not under the radio guidance of the pilot, then pay up. You screwed up and lost control of your plane, while the owner of the parked plane was innocent of any negligence.
It's that simple. This can be a very expensive hobby, and if you can't afford to replace what you damage, then stay home.
Bill, AMA 4720
04-14-2009, 06:40 AM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder
I've been silent on this until now. I'll share my feelings on this issue. The opinions are mine, and if you disagree with them then so be it.
If you are involved in a mid-air, no foul, no fault. It's just a hazard of flying model airplanes, unless there is obvious negligence, such as hovering over the runway while the pattern is full.
If you hit a model that is parked, and is not under the radio guidance of the pilot, then pay up. You screwed up and lost control of your plane
, while the owner of the parked plane was innocent of any negligence.
It's that simple. This can be a very expensive hobby, and if you can't afford to replace what you damage, then stay home.
Bill, AMA 4720
I've been silent on this until now. I'll share my feelings on this issue. The opinions are mine, and if you disagree with them then so be it.
If you are involved in a mid-air, no foul, no fault. It's just a hazard of flying model airplanes, unless there is obvious negligence, such as hovering over the runway while the pattern is full.
If you hit a model that is parked, and is not under the radio guidance of the pilot, then pay up. You screwed up and lost control of your plane
, while the owner of the parked plane was innocent of any negligence.
It's that simple. This can be a very expensive hobby, and if you can't afford to replace what you damage, then stay home.
Bill, AMA 4720
I maintain and pre-flight my planes on a regular basis, and that has served me well so far. But I have yet to hear how I can reliably prevent any of those components from failing at the most inopportune moment.