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what is te faa up to, rules for us?

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Old 05-11-2009, 08:15 AM
  #1
rack
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Default what is te faa up to, rules for us?

does any one know what the FAA is doing ?, are they in the process of writing rules for the reg of model airplanes .
i know they have already included us into the no fly zones, and temporary no fly zones

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Old 05-11-2009, 10:05 AM
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

Perhaps they are wanting to make us do what they have been asking us to do,
by regulating what will happen if we dont do as they ask,
like how ASF400 and Guidence0801 just were controlling what happens to folks that choose to not follow AC91-57

Ask yourself
what changes will there be for the guys that have been RC flying as AC91-75 suggested.
You may find what comes from the fed is more permissive than what comes from Muncie
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Old 05-11-2009, 10:43 AM
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy
You may find what comes from the fed is more permissive than what comes from Muncie
How so??

One thing I know is that the AMA was trying to get more liberal altitude limits for models in the new SFARs that are coming for UAVs. AMA originally wanted 1,500 feet outside areas of possible conflict with full size and the 400 foot limit in areas of possible conflict. FAA is leaning towards 400 feet all the time everywhere. This would effectively kill RC soaring, significantly limit IMAC and pattern, and place unnecessary restrictions on pilots that fly in places where the chance of a conflict is low.
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Old 05-11-2009, 10:47 AM
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R


Quote:
ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy
You may find what comes from the fed is more permissive than what comes from Muncie
How so??

One thing I know is that the AMA was trying to get more liberal altitude limits for models in the new SFARs that are coming for UAVs. AMA originally wanted 1,500 feet outside areas of possible conflict with full size and the 400 foot limit in areas of possible conflict. FAA is leaning towards 400 feet all the time everywhere. This would effectively kill RC soaring, significantly limit IMAC and pattern, and place unnecessary restrictions on pilots that fly in places where the chance of a conflict is low.
One thing is certain...the AMA cannot be more permissive than the FAA...by nature of that fact the Kid is probably more right than wrong.
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Old 05-11-2009, 02:19 PM
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: rack

does any one know what the FAA is doing ?, are they in the process of writing rules for the reg of model airplanes .
i know they have already included us into the no fly zones, and temporary no fly zones

"does any one know what the FAA is doing ?" NOPE! Not here! In all my aviation years (41) IMO they didn't know, the using agencies didn't know, and the slaves trying to do the doings had to "wing it" most of the time. [:-][>:]
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Old 05-11-2009, 02:36 PM
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Hossfly


Quote:
ORIGINAL: rack

does any one know what the FAA is doing ?, are they in the process of writing rules for the reg of model airplanes .
i know they have already included us into the no fly zones, and temporary no fly zones

"does any one know what the FAA is doing ?" NOPE! Not here! In all my aviation years (41) IMO they didn't know, the using agencies didn't know, and the slaves trying to do the doings had to "wing it" most of the time. [:-][>:]
That is the truth...plain and simple.
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:12 PM
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

Here is the latest from the ARC group for models. Much bigger document for SUAVs. This is not in concrete yet!

Steve


April 1, 2009
Page 3
Subpart A. Model Aircraft
2. Model Aircraft Operated in Accordance with
FAA Accepted Standards
2.1 Applicability
Model Aircraft operations that are conducted in accordance with an FAA accepted set of
standards established and administered by a community based association as discussed in
Section 2.2, shall otherwise be exempt from the requirements of any Special Federal
Airworthiness Regulation (SFAR) that results from this recommendation as long as they are
operated by:
• Hobbyist for the sole purpose of sport, recreation and/or competition under the
conditions of such an FAA accepted program
• Manufacturers which are flight testing aircraft intended to be operated for the sole
purpose of sport, recreation, and/or competition and they are tested at an approved
field as defined by and in accordance with an FAA accepted program with the
approval of the community-based association responsible for the location
• Educational institutions and/or students for the sole purpose of education or research
and they are operated at an approved field as defined by and in accordance with an
FAA accepted program with the approval of the community-based association
responsible for the location
• Manufacturers which are flight testing aircraft intended to be operated for other than
sport, recreation, and/or competition and they are tested at an approved field as
defined by and in accordance with an FAA accepted program with the approval of the
community-based association responsible for the location
RATIONALE: Reflects FAA’s concept of regulating model aviation by
exempting Model Aircraft from regulation. Under this approach, modelers
participating within an aeromodeling structure/organization such as the
Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) may operate their Model Aircraft
in accordance with an accepted set of standards and operating
procedures. Based on a more rigorous attention to safety, risk assessment,
and risk mitigation, the accepted standards may provide greater latitude
in the Model Aircraft operations. Modelers not participating in the
additional safety programming established in an accepted set of standards
shall comply with the requirements of Section 3.
April 1, 2009
Page 4
COMMENTARY: It is important that manufacturers of Model Aircraft
are able to test fly their aircraft as they do today without having to adhere
to sUAS regulations. In order to give educational institutions (e.g.,
universities) the flexibility to provide "hands on" instruction and training
to students preparing for careers in the UAS and aviation industries they
are allowed to fly these systems under the requirements for Model
Aircraft. For consistency, manufacturers who develop sUAS that are
functionally similar to Model Aircraft, are allowed to test at a location
following a community-based and FAA-accepted program.
2.2 Accepted Model Aircraft Standards and Procedures
Accepted Model Aircraft Standards and Procedures may be established and administered by
a community-based association. An accepted set of standards shall be based upon accepted
and recognized safety principles and will include but not be limited to the following:
RATIONALE: Community based organizations, such as the AMA, that
have credibility within the Model Aircraft community and that have an
established safety record and have demonstrated the ability to influence
participant compliance shall be afforded the opportunity to establish a set
of safety standards that are more comprehensive than the requirements
and limitations given for non participating modelers, and use these
standards as an alternative means of compliance with any regulations
which may results from these recommendations. Since such standards are
more comprehensive, operations under such standards shall allow for a
broad spectrum of operations and greater latitude in the AMA operations.
(1) Prescribed safety program entailing oversight, assessment, risk mitigation, and
accident/incident reporting.
(2) General safety guidelines and operating principles.
(3) Operating guidelines specific to the location and to the type, size, performance, and
propulsion of the various Model Aircraft.
(4) Comprehensive programming addressing Model Aircraft having non standard
weight, or identified as having unusual propulsion types or extraordinary flight
characteristics.
(5) Programming to facilitate Model Aircraft events, competition, national and
international record attempts, gatherings, and Model Aircraft demonstrations and
exhibitions.
(6) Educational programming that assures participants are provided relevant safety
information and validates the learning process.
(7) Educational programming that addresses essential piloting issues including:
• Recognition and avoidance of manned aircraft
• Safe operation near spectators and other non participants
April 1, 2009
Page 5
• Safe and cooperative operation with other modelers
• Transitioning to higher performance and more complex models
(8) Methodology for establishing and designating dedicated Model Aircraft flying sites
providing:
• Guidelines for flying site location, configuration and design layout applicable to
its intended use and the type(s) of Model Aircraft flown, and which ensures
Model Aircraft operations do not interfere with manned flight operations
• Safety guidelines that ensure the safety of the public and provide adequate
separation of persons and property from the Model Aircraft operations
• Guidelines for coordinating and reviewing operating policies and procedures
with the airspace controlling authority for those flying sites located within
controlled airspace
• Guidelines for coordinating and reviewing operating policies and procedures
with the airport and applicable airspace control authority for those flying sites
located within 3 NM of a military or public-use airport, heliport, or seaplane
base.
• Guidelines for establishing and disseminating flying site operating procedures,
limitations and safety guidelines including the following:
– Hours of Operation
– Flying site operating procedures
– Frequency control procedures (if applicable)
– Traffic pattern and flight operations
– Cooperation with other modelers
– Applicable altitude restrictions
– Applicable No-Fly zones and operating area limits
– Flight line and pit area safety procedures
– Spectator and public access policies
– Emergency Procedures (e.g., Fire, First Aid)
3. Model Aircraft Not Operated in Accordance with
Accepted Set of Standards !
3.1 Applicability !
The following general requirements and limitations apply to Model Aircraft which are not
operated in accordance with an FAA accepted set of standards, but are operated by hobbyists
for the sole purpose of sport, recreation, and/or competition.
April 1, 2009
Page 6
ALTERNATIVE VIEW: Eliminate Section 3.0 in its entirety.
ALTERNATIVE RATIONALE: AMA believes this approach is flawed in
that it fails to recognize the substantial diversity of the hobby, establishes
unrealistic and unenforceable restrictions, and leaves absent a safety
surveillance program to oversee the activities of those modelers who
choose not to participate in a formal aeromodeling structure/organization
More importantly, as a baseline set of standards, these limitations have
the inherent potential of imposing a devastating impact on the
aeromodeling activity and the hobby industry.
3.2 General Requirements !
(1) Model Aircraft shall be flown in open spaces and in a manner that does not
endanger the life and property of others.
(2) Model Aircraft shall yield the right of way to all manned aircraft.
(3) Model Aircraft shall not interfere with operations and traffic patterns at airports,
heliports, and seaplane bases.
(4) Model Aircraft shall not be operated at locations where Model Aircraft activities
are prohibited.
(5) Model Aircraft are limited to unaided visual line-of-sight operations. The Model
Aircraft pilot must be able to see the aircraft throughout the entire flight well
enough to maintain control, know its location, and watch the airspace it is operating
in for other air traffic. Unaided visual line-of-sight does not preclude the use of
prescribed corrective lenses.
(6) Model Aircraft shall be designed, equipped, maintained and/or operated in a
manner in which the aircraft remains within the intended area of flight during all
operations.
(7) Model Aircraft pilots may not intentionally drop any object from a Model Aircraft
that creates a hazard to persons or property.
(8) Model Aircraft shall be operated in a manner that respects property rights and
avoids the direct overflight of individuals, vessels, vehicles, or structures.
(9) Model Aircraft shall not be operated in a careless or reckless manner.
(10) Model Aircraft pilots shall not operate their aircraft while under the influence of
alcohol or while using any drug that affects the person’s faculties in any way
contrary to safety.
(11) Model fixed-wing and rotorcraft aircraft shall not use metal-blade propellers.
(12) Model Aircraft shall not use gaseous boosts.
(13) Model Aircraft shall not use fuels containing tetranitronmethane or hydrazine.
(14) Model Aircraft shall not use turbine-powered engines (e.g., turbo-fan, turbo-jet) as
a propulsion source. !
April 1, 2009
Page 7
RATIONALE: Turbine powered aircraft are perceived by many members
of the sUAS Aviation Rulemaking Committee (ARC) as being a higher
risk.
ALTERNATIVE VIEW: Eliminate the limitation.
ALTERNATIVE RATIONALE: The blanket prohibition of turbine
engines does not take into consideration the various and diverse turbine
engines currently produced and impose an unjustified economic impact on
the hobby industry.
3.3 General Limitations !
(1) Model Aircraft shall not exceed 55 pounds (lbs).
(2) Model Aircraft shall remain clear of clouds.
(3) Model Aircraft will not operate in Class B airspace without the permission of the
ATC authority.
(4) Model Aircraft shall not be operated within 3 NM miles of an airport, heliport, or
seaplane base without the permission of the ATC authority or airport manager.
(5) Model Aircraft shall operate in close proximity to the ground, at or below
400 feet (’) above ground level (AGL), and shall at all times remain below and well
clear of all manned aircraft. !
RATIONALE: By keeping Model Aircraft at or below 400’ encounters
with manned aircraft are reduced. This recommended general limitation
is consistent with the current Model Aircraft guidance contained in
AC91-57.
ALTERNATIVE VIEW: Replace (5) with the following:
Model Aircraft shall operate in close proximity to the ground, shall stay at
or below 400’ AGL when within 3 NM of an airport, and shall at all times
remain below and well clear of all manned aircraft.
ALTERNATIVE RATIONALE: Though it is agreed that there needs to
be some altitude limit on the modelers that are not participating in a
structured safety program such as AMA’s, AMA also knows from their
experience that creating a hard and fast across the board altitude limit,
such as 400’ is unnecessarily restrictive, unrealistic, and arguably poses a
greater risk to personnel on the ground. AMA’s experience has shown that
the greatest risk to other participants in the NAS and perhaps the only
significant risk posed by model aviation is when Model Aircraft are
operated within three miles of an airport. The language in the
ATERNATIVE VIEW mirrors the current guidelines in the AMA Safety
Code.
(6) Notwithstanding the above limitations, Model Aircraft weighing less than or equal
to two lbs incapable of reaching speeds greater than 60 miles per hour (mph)
(52 knots), and powered by electric motor or mechanical stored energy (e.g.,
April 1, 2009
Page 8
rubber-band powered) may operate within 3 NM of a military or public-use airport
or heliport; if they remain a safe distance from the airport or heliport, remain well
clear of all manned aircraft, and remain below 400’ AGL.
RATIONALE for the above limitations:
(1) Currently accepted domestic weight limit and has international
precedent as well.
(2) Is consistent with the concept of visual line-of-sight (VLOS).
(3) Class B is positive control. All aircraft are required to operate on a
clearance. Gaining permission from ATC is equivalent to receiving a
clearance.
(4) Model Aircraft permitted to operate within 3 NM of the airport will be
provided applicable operating limitations.
(5) 400’ is appropriate for Model Aircraft operations in Class C airspace
without coordinating with ATC and is consistent with the intention of
current domestic policy and with the UK, CASA, and Canada.
(6) This is consistent with the guidelines currently established by
AC91-57.
(7) Makes a blanket exception for models weighing two lbs or less. This
is an appropriate allowance for “Park Flier” and “toy” type models
and allows them to use parks and small fields closer to airports.
(7) Model Aircraft will not be flown at an airspeed that would cause the aircraft to
inadvertently leave the prescribed maneuvering area. !
RATIONALE: The pilot will be responsible for limiting their speed so
that they can remain within the prescribed maneuvering area.
ALTERNATIVE VIEW: Replace (7) with the following:
Model Aircraft cannot be operated at airspeeds which exceed 100 mph
(87 knots).
ALTERNATIVE RATIONALE: Restricting the speed of Model Aircraft
not participating in an FAA-accepted safety program will mean that highperformance
aircraft will not be operated by individuals that are not
being scrutinized by their peers. Eliminating high-performance aircraft
will also help to ensure that the operator will be able to keep their aircraft
within the defined operational area (line-of-sight and below 400’ AGL).
Limiting the speed also will reduce the likelihood of turbine powered
aircraft being operated without the guidance of an FAA-accepted safety
program. Turbine powered aircraft are perceived by many members of
the ARC as being a higher risk.
(8) Model Aircraft cannot launch pyrotechnic devices which explode or burn.
April 1, 2009
Page 9
(9) Excluding take-off and landing, no powered Model Aircraft may be flown closer
than 25 feet to any individual, except for the pilot and the pilots helper located at
the flight line.
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:33 PM
  #8
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

so according to this turbines are going to be disallowed, ?
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:44 PM
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

I think as long as they are operated under AMA guide lines they'll be allowed.

I'm not the expert on this, but posted for info purposes and to get others involved before we get something really ugly pushed upon us.

Steve
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Old 05-11-2009, 08:04 PM
  #10
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

I think a few are missing some KEY statements in this entire document:


Section 2.2
"RATIONALE: Reflects FAA’s concept of regulating model aviation by
exempting Model Aircraft from regulation. Under this approach, modelers
participating within an aeromodeling structure/organization such as the
Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) may operate their Model Aircraft
in accordance with an accepted set of standards and operating
procedures. Based on a more rigorous attention to safety, risk assessment,
and risk mitigation, the accepted standards may provide greater latitude
in the Model Aircraft operations. Modelers not participating in the
additional safety programming established in an accepted set of standards
shall comply with the requirements of Section 3. "

"3. Model Aircraft Not Operated in Accordance with
Accepted Set of Standards !
3.1 Applicability !
The following general requirements and limitations apply to Model Aircraft which are not
operated in accordance with an FAA accepted set of standards, but are operated by hobbyists
for the sole purpose of sport, recreation, and/or competition.
April 1, 2009
Page 6
ALTERNATIVE VIEW: Eliminate Section 3.0 in its entirety.
ALTERNATIVE RATIONALE: AMA believes this approach is flawed in
that it fails to recognize the substantial diversity of the hobby, establishes
unrealistic and unenforceable restrictions, and leaves absent a safety
surveillance program to oversee the activities of those modelers who
choose not to participate in a formal aeromodeling structure/organization
More importantly, as a baseline set of standards, these limitations have
the inherent potential of imposing a devastating impact on the
aeromodeling activity and the hobby industry. "


Section 3.1 mentions an " an unaccepted set of FAA standards" but section 2.2 mentions that the FAA recognizes the AMA and accepts the AMA operation standards. Sooo


From my decoding of all of this.. their are 2 "operation criteria".

A. In Accordance with AMA (in which all of the above are not applicable, and you revert to the AMA safety and operation standards/guidelines).

B. In accordance with the above FAA document (if it is accepted).

So basically, if you operate w/n the AMA standards, you are far less restricted, but if you aren't a part of the AMA, you are highly restricted in your operations and activities... But thats just my interpretation.
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Old 05-12-2009, 12:07 AM
  #11
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

Why do I see April 1 all over the document?
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Old 05-12-2009, 01:34 AM
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

Date aside, know that this is for real and unless the AMA can convince the FAA otherwise turbines will be goners as will soaring and many other types of planes. Anything that needs to fly above 400 feet will be done for. Most competitive gliders hit 600 feet on launch!! So what the RC hobby will be left with is small planes flown lower than 400 feet agl. This is why I am amazed by the narrow view that many modelers have that letting the FAA do it's thing will be just fine. I know this, if the FAA has its way I will be selling everything I own with the exception of some small foamies.
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Old 05-12-2009, 05:38 AM
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

As I read the above proposal, it appears the prohibition on Turbines, and the specific 400 ft AGL only apply to modelers NOT operating in accorandance with the AMA policy. Those prohibitions only appear in Section 3.

Brad
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Old 05-12-2009, 06:40 AM
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

sounds like the AMA is becoming a part of the FAA, they're probably going to make it a law that you must belong to the AMA in order to be in compliance,
i know they have been working on airspace permits for above 400 agl with date and time issued by the faa to allow for contest operation for gliders and imac competition
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Old 05-12-2009, 07:45 AM
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: rack

sounds like the AMA is becoming a part of the FAA, they're probably going to make it a law that you must belong to the AMA in order to be in compliance,
i know they have been working on airspace permits for above 400 agl with date and time issued by the faa to allow for contest operation for gliders and imac competition

No, that is incorrect. The AMA is part of the working group coming up with the new regs. This group is giving input to the FAA who will make the final decision. What was posted was an early draft and there have been some changes since then. But the AMA is not becoming "part of the FAA". What was proposed is that the AMA is recognized as one of the community based organizations that can provide a training and oversight structure so that the FAA does not need to be involved.

And under the new regs there will not be any "waivers" (BTW - there never were. The FAA issued COA, a Certificate of Authorization) if you are not a model airplane as they define it, altitude and all, then you will fall under the new regs.
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Old 05-12-2009, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: bkdavy

As I read the above proposal, it appears the prohibition on Turbines, and the specific 400 ft AGL only apply to modelers NOT operating in accorandance with the AMA policy. Those prohibitions only appear in Section 3.

Brad

This is still up in the air as it were. What was posted is not a final draft and there others on the ARC who simply want to make it simple, no turbines, no fast planes and all models under 400 feet everywhere all the time.
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Old 05-12-2009, 08:39 AM
  #17
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

whats next , are they going to sock us with a high performance tax? they already want to hammer general aviation, and a total ban on private ownership is out there . just ask Elenore Holmes Norton shes in the subcommittee that oversees the faa and this is her opinion.
if they cant get their agenda threw rule changes they will get it threw punitive taxes. aviation seems to be on the Obama radar
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Old 05-12-2009, 09:15 AM
  #18
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

Quote:
I will be selling everything I own with the exception of some small foamies.
Guess you will have to ship outside of country stuff wont be worth anything
in the U.S. if the new rules take effect.
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Old 05-12-2009, 09:47 AM
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

Guys,

The sky is not falling. It requires us to take some action. Convey your thoughts to the AMA and more importantly your Congress Critters. If they are flooded with irate voters they will do something to help mitigate the draconian rules. It's easy to gripe on this forum but will require more than that to make things happen to benefit us.

Steve
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Old 05-12-2009, 09:52 AM
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

The whole thing looks like an April 1 list of

REGULATION PROPOSAL: Restrictions to be imposed on Model Aircraft
ALTERNATIVE VIEW: The AMA should be exempt from the restrictions
ALTERNATIVE RATIONALE:: AMA doesnt want to be restricted like everyone else
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Old 05-12-2009, 09:57 AM
  #21
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

i called my senators office and they are not going to get involved with what they consider to be toys if the faa deems them a threat then they should be banned . thanks Dick
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Old 05-12-2009, 11:16 AM
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

I believe the FAA is trying to deal with the model aviation community much as they have done with the skydiving community. Skydivers have an organization, the United States Parachute Association (USPA), that guides the activities of skydiving. The AMA is very similar to the USPA. The FAA lends credence to the USPA because their guidelines do a good job of keeping skydiving safe and trouble free. The FAA allows them to continue in this manner because of this.

I think the FAA is trying to do the same with the AMA. They have enough to deal with in the airline industry and general aviation and don't want or need any more work load. The arrangement the USPA has with the FAA has worked well, and I think the same will be true of the relationship of the AMA and the FAA.

Oly
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Old 05-12-2009, 11:38 AM
  #23
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

As part of the regulatory process, the FAA will have to publish the proposed regulations for public comment. It will then be contingent upon us, as the affected public, to review and comment on those proposed regulations. The FAA will then have to resolve those comments (although not necessarily favorably to us). After that the FAA will publish the final rule. Hopefully we'll have someone thats participating with the AMA give us a heads up when the proposed rule is actually published.

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Old 05-12-2009, 11:53 AM
  #24
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

i understand that's been past practices, but this administration as thrown every thing out the window nothing can be taken for granite,
i don't believe we should just trust that they and the ama will operate in our best intrest.
the Obama administration believes in strong arming to get there agenda threw , just look at the auto industry and the banks .pure black male
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Old 05-12-2009, 11:59 AM
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Default RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

Perhaps, as just a shot in the dark,
FAA will clamp down on Model Aircraft
with draconian restriction, like they have done for p103 Ultralights
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