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  1. #1

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    what is te faa up to, rules for us?

    does any one know what the FAA is doing ?, are they in the process of writing rules for the reg of model airplanes .
    i know they have already included us into the no fly zones, and temporary no fly zones


  2. #2
    KidEpoxy's Avatar
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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

    Perhaps they are wanting to make us do what they have been asking us to do,
    by regulating what will happen if we dont do as they ask,
    like how ASF400 and Guidence0801 just were controlling what happens to folks that choose to not follow AC91-57

    Ask yourself
    what changes will there be for the guys that have been RC flying as AC91-75 suggested.
    You may find what comes from the fed is more permissive than what comes from Muncie

  3. #3
    Silent-AV8R's Avatar
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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?


    ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy
    You may find what comes from the fed is more permissive than what comes from Muncie
    How so??

    One thing I know is that the AMA was trying to get more liberal altitude limits for models in the new SFARs that are coming for UAVs. AMA originally wanted 1,500 feet outside areas of possible conflict with full size and the 400 foot limit in areas of possible conflict. FAA is leaning towards 400 feet all the time everywhere. This would effectively kill RC soaring, significantly limit IMAC and pattern, and place unnecessary restrictions on pilots that fly in places where the chance of a conflict is low.
    Team Futaba - RClipos.com

  4. #4
    littlecrankshaf's Avatar
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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?


    ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R


    ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy
    You may find what comes from the fed is more permissive than what comes from Muncie
    How so??

    One thing I know is that the AMA was trying to get more liberal altitude limits for models in the new SFARs that are coming for UAVs. AMA originally wanted 1,500 feet outside areas of possible conflict with full size and the 400 foot limit in areas of possible conflict. FAA is leaning towards 400 feet all the time everywhere. This would effectively kill RC soaring, significantly limit IMAC and pattern, and place unnecessary restrictions on pilots that fly in places where the chance of a conflict is low.
    One thing is certain...the AMA cannot be more permissive than the FAA...by nature of that fact the Kid is probably more right than wrong.
    It is very important to understand that Jesus not only died for our sins but died because of our sins...even harder to understand now, exactly what were those sins???

  5. #5
    Hossfly's Avatar
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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?


    ORIGINAL: rack

    does any one know what the FAA is doing ?, are they in the process of writing rules for the reg of model airplanes .
    i know they have already included us into the no fly zones, and temporary no fly zones

    "does any one know what the FAA is doing ?" NOPE! Not here! In all my aviation years (41) IMO they didn't know, the using agencies didn't know, and the slaves trying to do the doings had to "wing it" most of the time. [:-][>:]
    Horrace Cain AMA L-93

    β€œPeace is the brief glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.\" T. Jefferson

  6. #6
    littlecrankshaf's Avatar
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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?


    ORIGINAL: Hossfly


    ORIGINAL: rack

    does any one know what the FAA is doing ?, are they in the process of writing rules for the reg of model airplanes .
    i know they have already included us into the no fly zones, and temporary no fly zones

    "does any one know what the FAA is doing ?" NOPE! Not here! In all my aviation years (41) IMO they didn't know, the using agencies didn't know, and the slaves trying to do the doings had to "wing it" most of the time. [:-][>:]
    That is the truth...plain and simple.
    It is very important to understand that Jesus not only died for our sins but died because of our sins...even harder to understand now, exactly what were those sins???

  7. #7

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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

    Here is the latest from the ARC group for models. Much bigger document for SUAVs. This is not in concrete yet!

    Steve


    April 1, 2009
    Page 3
    Subpart A. Model Aircraft
    2. Model Aircraft Operated in Accordance with
    FAA Accepted Standards
    2.1 Applicability
    Model Aircraft operations that are conducted in accordance with an FAA accepted set of
    standards established and administered by a community based association as discussed in
    Section 2.2, shall otherwise be exempt from the requirements of any Special Federal
    Airworthiness Regulation (SFAR) that results from this recommendation as long as they are
    operated by:
    β€’ Hobbyist for the sole purpose of sport, recreation and/or competition under the
    conditions of such an FAA accepted program
    β€’ Manufacturers which are flight testing aircraft intended to be operated for the sole
    purpose of sport, recreation, and/or competition and they are tested at an approved
    field as defined by and in accordance with an FAA accepted program with the
    approval of the community-based association responsible for the location
    β€’ Educational institutions and/or students for the sole purpose of education or research
    and they are operated at an approved field as defined by and in accordance with an
    FAA accepted program with the approval of the community-based association
    responsible for the location
    β€’ Manufacturers which are flight testing aircraft intended to be operated for other than
    sport, recreation, and/or competition and they are tested at an approved field as
    defined by and in accordance with an FAA accepted program with the approval of the
    community-based association responsible for the location
    RATIONALE: Reflects FAAΒ’s concept of regulating model aviation by
    exempting Model Aircraft from regulation. Under this approach, modelers
    participating within an aeromodeling structure/organization such as the
    Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) may operate their Model Aircraft
    in accordance with an accepted set of standards and operating
    procedures. Based on a more rigorous attention to safety, risk assessment,
    and risk mitigation, the accepted standards may provide greater latitude
    in the Model Aircraft operations. Modelers not participating in the
    additional safety programming established in an accepted set of standards
    shall comply with the requirements of Section 3.
    April 1, 2009
    Page 4
    COMMENTARY: It is important that manufacturers of Model Aircraft
    are able to test fly their aircraft as they do today without having to adhere
    to sUAS regulations. In order to give educational institutions (e.g.,
    universities) the flexibility to provide "hands on" instruction and training
    to students preparing for careers in the UAS and aviation industries they
    are allowed to fly these systems under the requirements for Model
    Aircraft. For consistency, manufacturers who develop sUAS that are
    functionally similar to Model Aircraft, are allowed to test at a location
    following a community-based and FAA-accepted program.
    2.2 Accepted Model Aircraft Standards and Procedures
    Accepted Model Aircraft Standards and Procedures may be established and administered by
    a community-based association. An accepted set of standards shall be based upon accepted
    and recognized safety principles and will include but not be limited to the following:
    RATIONALE: Community based organizations, such as the AMA, that
    have credibility within the Model Aircraft community and that have an
    established safety record and have demonstrated the ability to influence
    participant compliance shall be afforded the opportunity to establish a set
    of safety standards that are more comprehensive than the requirements
    and limitations given for non participating modelers, and use these
    standards as an alternative means of compliance with any regulations
    which may results from these recommendations. Since such standards are
    more comprehensive, operations under such standards shall allow for a
    broad spectrum of operations and greater latitude in the AMA operations.
    (1) Prescribed safety program entailing oversight, assessment, risk mitigation, and
    accident/incident reporting.
    (2) General safety guidelines and operating principles.
    (3) Operating guidelines specific to the location and to the type, size, performance, and
    propulsion of the various Model Aircraft.
    (4) Comprehensive programming addressing Model Aircraft having non standard
    weight, or identified as having unusual propulsion types or extraordinary flight
    characteristics.
    (5) Programming to facilitate Model Aircraft events, competition, national and
    international record attempts, gatherings, and Model Aircraft demonstrations and
    exhibitions.
    (6) Educational programming that assures participants are provided relevant safety
    information and validates the learning process.
    (7) Educational programming that addresses essential piloting issues including:
    β€’ Recognition and avoidance of manned aircraft
    β€’ Safe operation near spectators and other non participants
    April 1, 2009
    Page 5
    β€’ Safe and cooperative operation with other modelers
    β€’ Transitioning to higher performance and more complex models
    (8) Methodology for establishing and designating dedicated Model Aircraft flying sites
    providing:
    β€’ Guidelines for flying site location, configuration and design layout applicable to
    its intended use and the type(s) of Model Aircraft flown, and which ensures
    Model Aircraft operations do not interfere with manned flight operations
    β€’ Safety guidelines that ensure the safety of the public and provide adequate
    separation of persons and property from the Model Aircraft operations
    β€’ Guidelines for coordinating and reviewing operating policies and procedures
    with the airspace controlling authority for those flying sites located within
    controlled airspace
    β€’ Guidelines for coordinating and reviewing operating policies and procedures
    with the airport and applicable airspace control authority for those flying sites
    located within 3 NM of a military or public-use airport, heliport, or seaplane
    base.
    β€’ Guidelines for establishing and disseminating flying site operating procedures,
    limitations and safety guidelines including the following:
    Β– Hours of Operation
    Β– Flying site operating procedures
    Β– Frequency control procedures (if applicable)
    Β– Traffic pattern and flight operations
    Β– Cooperation with other modelers
    Β– Applicable altitude restrictions
    Β– Applicable No-Fly zones and operating area limits
    Β– Flight line and pit area safety procedures
    Β– Spectator and public access policies
    Β– Emergency Procedures (e.g., Fire, First Aid)
    3. Model Aircraft Not Operated in Accordance with
    Accepted Set of Standards !
    3.1 Applicability !
    The following general requirements and limitations apply to Model Aircraft which are not
    operated in accordance with an FAA accepted set of standards, but are operated by hobbyists
    for the sole purpose of sport, recreation, and/or competition.
    April 1, 2009
    Page 6
    ALTERNATIVE VIEW: Eliminate Section 3.0 in its entirety.
    ALTERNATIVE RATIONALE: AMA believes this approach is flawed in
    that it fails to recognize the substantial diversity of the hobby, establishes
    unrealistic and unenforceable restrictions, and leaves absent a safety
    surveillance program to oversee the activities of those modelers who
    choose not to participate in a formal aeromodeling structure/organization
    More importantly, as a baseline set of standards, these limitations have
    the inherent potential of imposing a devastating impact on the
    aeromodeling activity and the hobby industry.
    3.2 General Requirements !
    (1) Model Aircraft shall be flown in open spaces and in a manner that does not
    endanger the life and property of others.
    (2) Model Aircraft shall yield the right of way to all manned aircraft.
    (3) Model Aircraft shall not interfere with operations and traffic patterns at airports,
    heliports, and seaplane bases.
    (4) Model Aircraft shall not be operated at locations where Model Aircraft activities
    are prohibited.
    (5) Model Aircraft are limited to unaided visual line-of-sight operations. The Model
    Aircraft pilot must be able to see the aircraft throughout the entire flight well
    enough to maintain control, know its location, and watch the airspace it is operating
    in for other air traffic. Unaided visual line-of-sight does not preclude the use of
    prescribed corrective lenses.
    (6) Model Aircraft shall be designed, equipped, maintained and/or operated in a
    manner in which the aircraft remains within the intended area of flight during all
    operations.
    (7) Model Aircraft pilots may not intentionally drop any object from a Model Aircraft
    that creates a hazard to persons or property.
    (8) Model Aircraft shall be operated in a manner that respects property rights and
    avoids the direct overflight of individuals, vessels, vehicles, or structures.
    (9) Model Aircraft shall not be operated in a careless or reckless manner.
    (10) Model Aircraft pilots shall not operate their aircraft while under the influence of
    alcohol or while using any drug that affects the person’s faculties in any way
    contrary to safety.
    (11) Model fixed-wing and rotorcraft aircraft shall not use metal-blade propellers.
    (12) Model Aircraft shall not use gaseous boosts.
    (13) Model Aircraft shall not use fuels containing tetranitronmethane or hydrazine.
    (14) Model Aircraft shall not use turbine-powered engines (e.g., turbo-fan, turbo-jet) as
    a propulsion source. !
    April 1, 2009
    Page 7
    RATIONALE: Turbine powered aircraft are perceived by many members
    of the sUAS Aviation Rulemaking Committee (ARC) as being a higher
    risk.
    ALTERNATIVE VIEW: Eliminate the limitation.
    ALTERNATIVE RATIONALE: The blanket prohibition of turbine
    engines does not take into consideration the various and diverse turbine
    engines currently produced and impose an unjustified economic impact on
    the hobby industry.
    3.3 General Limitations !
    (1) Model Aircraft shall not exceed 55 pounds (lbs).
    (2) Model Aircraft shall remain clear of clouds.
    (3) Model Aircraft will not operate in Class B airspace without the permission of the
    ATC authority.
    (4) Model Aircraft shall not be operated within 3 NM miles of an airport, heliport, or
    seaplane base without the permission of the ATC authority or airport manager.
    (5) Model Aircraft shall operate in close proximity to the ground, at or below
    400 feet (Β’) above ground level (AGL), and shall at all times remain below and well
    clear of all manned aircraft. !
    RATIONALE: By keeping Model Aircraft at or below 400Β’ encounters
    with manned aircraft are reduced. This recommended general limitation
    is consistent with the current Model Aircraft guidance contained in
    AC91-57.
    ALTERNATIVE VIEW: Replace (5) with the following:
    Model Aircraft shall operate in close proximity to the ground, shall stay at
    or below 400Β’ AGL when within 3 NM of an airport, and shall at all times
    remain below and well clear of all manned aircraft.
    ALTERNATIVE RATIONALE: Though it is agreed that there needs to
    be some altitude limit on the modelers that are not participating in a
    structured safety program such as AMAΒ’s, AMA also knows from their
    experience that creating a hard and fast across the board altitude limit,
    such as 400Β’ is unnecessarily restrictive, unrealistic, and arguably poses a
    greater risk to personnel on the ground. AMAΒ’s experience has shown that
    the greatest risk to other participants in the NAS and perhaps the only
    significant risk posed by model aviation is when Model Aircraft are
    operated within three miles of an airport. The language in the
    ATERNATIVE VIEW mirrors the current guidelines in the AMA Safety
    Code.
    (6) Notwithstanding the above limitations, Model Aircraft weighing less than or equal
    to two lbs incapable of reaching speeds greater than 60 miles per hour (mph)
    (52 knots), and powered by electric motor or mechanical stored energy (e.g.,
    April 1, 2009
    Page 8
    rubber-band powered) may operate within 3 NM of a military or public-use airport
    or heliport; if they remain a safe distance from the airport or heliport, remain well
    clear of all manned aircraft, and remain below 400Β’ AGL.
    RATIONALE for the above limitations:
    (1) Currently accepted domestic weight limit and has international
    precedent as well.
    (2) Is consistent with the concept of visual line-of-sight (VLOS).
    (3) Class B is positive control. All aircraft are required to operate on a
    clearance. Gaining permission from ATC is equivalent to receiving a
    clearance.
    (4) Model Aircraft permitted to operate within 3 NM of the airport will be
    provided applicable operating limitations.
    (5) 400Β’ is appropriate for Model Aircraft operations in Class C airspace
    without coordinating with ATC and is consistent with the intention of
    current domestic policy and with the UK, CASA, and Canada.
    (6) This is consistent with the guidelines currently established by
    AC91-57.
    (7) Makes a blanket exception for models weighing two lbs or less. This
    is an appropriate allowance for Β“Park FlierΒ” and Β“toyΒ” type models
    and allows them to use parks and small fields closer to airports.
    (7) Model Aircraft will not be flown at an airspeed that would cause the aircraft to
    inadvertently leave the prescribed maneuvering area. !
    RATIONALE: The pilot will be responsible for limiting their speed so
    that they can remain within the prescribed maneuvering area.
    ALTERNATIVE VIEW: Replace (7) with the following:
    Model Aircraft cannot be operated at airspeeds which exceed 100 mph
    (87 knots).
    ALTERNATIVE RATIONALE: Restricting the speed of Model Aircraft
    not participating in an FAA-accepted safety program will mean that highperformance
    aircraft will not be operated by individuals that are not
    being scrutinized by their peers. Eliminating high-performance aircraft
    will also help to ensure that the operator will be able to keep their aircraft
    within the defined operational area (line-of-sight and below 400Β’ AGL).
    Limiting the speed also will reduce the likelihood of turbine powered
    aircraft being operated without the guidance of an FAA-accepted safety
    program. Turbine powered aircraft are perceived by many members of
    the ARC as being a higher risk.
    (8) Model Aircraft cannot launch pyrotechnic devices which explode or burn.
    April 1, 2009
    Page 9
    (9) Excluding take-off and landing, no powered Model Aircraft may be flown closer
    than 25 feet to any individual, except for the pilot and the pilots helper located at
    the flight line.

  8. #8

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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

    so according to this turbines are going to be disallowed, ?

  9. #9

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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

    I think as long as they are operated under AMA guide lines they'll be allowed.

    I'm not the expert on this, but posted for info purposes and to get others involved before we get something really ugly pushed upon us.

    Steve

  10. #10
    invertmast's Avatar
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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

    I think a few are missing some KEY statements in this entire document:


    Section 2.2
    "RATIONALE: Reflects FAAΒ’s concept of regulating model aviation by
    exempting Model Aircraft from regulation. Under this approach, modelers
    participating within an aeromodeling structure/organization such as the
    Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) may operate their Model Aircraft
    in accordance with an accepted set of standards and operating
    procedures. Based on a more rigorous attention to safety, risk assessment,
    and risk mitigation, the accepted standards may provide greater latitude
    in the Model Aircraft operations. Modelers not participating in the
    additional safety programming established in an accepted set of standards
    shall comply with the requirements of Section 3. "

    "3. Model Aircraft Not Operated in Accordance with
    Accepted Set of Standards !
    3.1 Applicability !
    The following general requirements and limitations apply to Model Aircraft which are not
    operated in accordance with an FAA accepted set of standards, but are operated by hobbyists
    for the sole purpose of sport, recreation, and/or competition.
    April 1, 2009
    Page 6
    ALTERNATIVE VIEW: Eliminate Section 3.0 in its entirety.
    ALTERNATIVE RATIONALE: AMA believes this approach is flawed in
    that it fails to recognize the substantial diversity of the hobby, establishes
    unrealistic and unenforceable restrictions, and leaves absent a safety
    surveillance program to oversee the activities of those modelers who
    choose not to participate in a formal aeromodeling structure/organization
    More importantly, as a baseline set of standards, these limitations have
    the inherent potential of imposing a devastating impact on the
    aeromodeling activity and the hobby industry. "


    Section 3.1 mentions an " an unaccepted set of FAA standards" but section 2.2 mentions that the FAA recognizes the AMA and accepts the AMA operation standards. Sooo


    From my decoding of all of this.. their are 2 "operation criteria".

    A. In Accordance with AMA (in which all of the above are not applicable, and you revert to the AMA safety and operation standards/guidelines).

    B. In accordance with the above FAA document (if it is accepted).

    So basically, if you operate w/n the AMA standards, you are far less restricted, but if you aren't a part of the AMA, you are highly restricted in your operations and activities... But thats just my interpretation.
    Thomas W.
    Euro-sport Evo, Scratch built 1/7 F-14D Tomcat, 26.5% Gee Bee R2

  11. #11
    A10FLYR's Avatar
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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

    Why do I see April 1 all over the document?
    Dean,
    A10FLYR

  12. #12
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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

    Date aside, know that this is for real and unless the AMA can convince the FAA otherwise turbines will be goners as will soaring and many other types of planes. Anything that needs to fly above 400 feet will be done for. Most competitive gliders hit 600 feet on launch!! So what the RC hobby will be left with is small planes flown lower than 400 feet agl. This is why I am amazed by the narrow view that many modelers have that letting the FAA do it's thing will be just fine. I know this, if the FAA has its way I will be selling everything I own with the exception of some small foamies.
    Team Futaba - RClipos.com

  13. #13
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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

    As I read the above proposal, it appears the prohibition on Turbines, and the specific 400 ft AGL only apply to modelers NOT operating in accorandance with the AMA policy. Those prohibitions only appear in Section 3.

    Brad

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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

    sounds like the AMA is becoming a part of the FAA, they're probably going to make it a law that you must belong to the AMA in order to be in compliance,
    i know they have been working on airspace permits for above 400 agl with date and time issued by the faa to allow for contest operation for gliders and imac competition

  15. #15
    Silent-AV8R's Avatar
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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?


    ORIGINAL: rack

    sounds like the AMA is becoming a part of the FAA, they're probably going to make it a law that you must belong to the AMA in order to be in compliance,
    i know they have been working on airspace permits for above 400 agl with date and time issued by the faa to allow for contest operation for gliders and imac competition

    No, that is incorrect. The AMA is part of the working group coming up with the new regs. This group is giving input to the FAA who will make the final decision. What was posted was an early draft and there have been some changes since then. But the AMA is not becoming "part of the FAA". What was proposed is that the AMA is recognized as one of the community based organizations that can provide a training and oversight structure so that the FAA does not need to be involved.

    And under the new regs there will not be any "waivers" (BTW - there never were. The FAA issued COA, a Certificate of Authorization) if you are not a model airplane as they define it, altitude and all, then you will fall under the new regs.
    Team Futaba - RClipos.com

  16. #16
    Silent-AV8R's Avatar
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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?


    ORIGINAL: bkdavy

    As I read the above proposal, it appears the prohibition on Turbines, and the specific 400 ft AGL only apply to modelers NOT operating in accorandance with the AMA policy. Those prohibitions only appear in Section 3.

    Brad

    This is still up in the air as it were. What was posted is not a final draft and there others on the ARC who simply want to make it simple, no turbines, no fast planes and all models under 400 feet everywhere all the time.
    Team Futaba - RClipos.com

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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

    whats next , are they going to sock us with a high performance tax? they already want to hammer general aviation, and a total ban on private ownership is out there . just ask Elenore Holmes Norton shes in the subcommittee that oversees the faa and this is her opinion.
    if they cant get their agenda threw rule changes they will get it threw punitive taxes. aviation seems to be on the Obama radar

  18. #18

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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

    I will be selling everything I own with the exception of some small foamies.
    Guess you will have to ship outside of country stuff wont be worth anything
    in the U.S. if the new rules take effect.
    Ira d

  19. #19

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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

    Guys,

    The sky is not falling. It requires us to take some action. Convey your thoughts to the AMA and more importantly your Congress Critters. If they are flooded with irate voters they will do something to help mitigate the draconian rules. It's easy to gripe on this forum but will require more than that to make things happen to benefit us.

    Steve

  20. #20
    KidEpoxy's Avatar
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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

    The whole thing looks like an April 1 list of

    REGULATION PROPOSAL: Restrictions to be imposed on Model Aircraft
    ALTERNATIVE VIEW: The AMA should be exempt from the restrictions
    ALTERNATIVE RATIONALE:: AMA doesnt want to be restricted like everyone else

  21. #21

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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

    i called my senators office and they are not going to get involved with what they consider to be toys if the faa deems them a threat then they should be banned . thanks Dick

  22. #22

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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

    I believe the FAA is trying to deal with the model aviation community much as they have done with the skydiving community. Skydivers have an organization, the United States Parachute Association (USPA), that guides the activities of skydiving. The AMA is very similar to the USPA. The FAA lends credence to the USPA because their guidelines do a good job of keeping skydiving safe and trouble free. The FAA allows them to continue in this manner because of this.

    I think the FAA is trying to do the same with the AMA. They have enough to deal with in the airline industry and general aviation and don't want or need any more work load. The arrangement the USPA has with the FAA has worked well, and I think the same will be true of the relationship of the AMA and the FAA.

    Oly

  23. #23
    bkdavy's Avatar
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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

    As part of the regulatory process, the FAA will have to publish the proposed regulations for public comment. It will then be contingent upon us, as the affected public, to review and comment on those proposed regulations. The FAA will then have to resolve those comments (although not necessarily favorably to us). After that the FAA will publish the final rule. Hopefully we'll have someone thats participating with the AMA give us a heads up when the proposed rule is actually published.

    Brad

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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

    i understand that's been past practices, but this administration as thrown every thing out the window nothing can be taken for granite,
    i don't believe we should just trust that they and the ama will operate in our best intrest.
    the Obama administration believes in strong arming to get there agenda threw , just look at the auto industry and the banks .pure black male

  25. #25
    KidEpoxy's Avatar
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    RE: what is te faa up to, rules for us?

    Perhaps, as just a shot in the dark,
    FAA will clamp down on Model Aircraft
    with draconian restriction, like they have done for p103 Ultralights


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