KidEpoxy

P51
You forgot to limit your Non-Waiver Exemption example
to just Electric Non-Waiver models,
cause the OP is putting forth some idea that a Quiet 2/60 is safer than a Glow 2/60,
so the non-waivers must be even safer when quiet, by his logic



Maybe the OP would use the simple test of insurance to draw the line of what is safer than what:
ONLY the ppp models do not require the millions of dollars of AMA insurance to fly at AMA club fields,
so perhaps ONLY ppp should be exempted by his plan to gut/hamstring SC#4

AMA has already made tiers of safety.
P51 mentioned the Waiver / NoWaiver model division
And I cite the $Mils / sub-$Mil division of Insurance by model


I cant wait to hear the rational
on how a 2oz rubber FF wouldnt fit the OP 'risk' exemption plan cause its not PPP-worthy

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

KE, the noisier glow powered 2lb / 60mph planes ARE safer than electric, no kidding. I'm not just talking about melt downs or accidental switch ons, but you can't hear an errant electric model that is closing in on your head as easily. At our club pylon races, I hate to admit it but I'm spooked by having a pack of quiet electric models whizzing past my head. The low time ARFers that this speedy event caters to adds to the "spooky" factor [:-] Many of these guys can't fly 2 clean laps in a row with their 130 mph 1/2A sized planes.
Judging from what I've witnessed, the only time these guys spend doing test flights and getting their models zeroed in is on race day.
Rule 4 or no rule 4, always keep your wits about you at a crowded and busy model plane event, and always keep a small lawn chair handy for self defense.

Robotech

My Feedback: (9)

If rule 4 were to be revised I would suggest the only revision be to add some teeth to it. If there are CDs that regularly allow test/maidens during sanctioned events, they should have their CD status removed. Period.

There are good reasons for rule 4. Putting spectators and contestants in more danger simply because a participant was either too lazy or poorly prepared for an event is ludicrous.

Start trying to make exceptions and you end up with the kind of mess the last pages of posts produced.

jetmech05

I think rule 4 should stand as it is.......makes perfect since to me to have at least a maiden flight on an aircraft before it is flown in front of a large crowd that can be present at events........note rule 4 says nothing about a time line
now an event IMHO does not run for 24 hour periods......there is a begiining time and an ending time daily......before or after an events time is open flying......
so John drives across country with a brand new airplane...never flown......arrives at the event at the scheduled start time......sorry he can't fly that brand new airplane until the event ends later in the day...he puts a maiden flight on the airplane..has proven that the airplane can fly and now he's good with that airplane the rest of the event anytime......
same deal except John arrives at 0500 ......the scheduled start time for the event is 0800 sun up at 0600 John has 2 hrs to maiden his airplane...once done John is good to go for the entire event....
who polices this policy...no one....who enforces the policy now...no one.....it's an honor thing.....but I would hate to taxi out a big gasser start my take off roll lift off and have my airplane smash into the crowd..that would have been discovered on a maiden...would not have stopped the crash...but no crowd.....
If you buy a brand new full scale airplane from the factory...I promise it has flights on it and they make the same airplane everyday....
A maiden flight should be required

KidEpoxy

Jetmech hit on something we have been dancing around,

"makes perfect since to me to have at least a maiden flight on an aircraft before it is flown in front of a large crowd that can be present at events"

I believe the core of what SC#4 is talking about
is not whether you fly in front of 3 people calling themselves a rainy sanctioned/promoted "Event" or "Display",
but that we shouldnt maiden in front of 200 folks,
not even that crowd 6 minutes before some "event" officially "starts".

It seems obvious SC#4 is not thinking it is safer to maiden in front of 200 folks at 8:26 than at 8:30 Event Start,
but that it is safer to maiden when there is not a larger gathering of folks than 'normal'

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

You have made 8 posts on this topic, how about giving a shot at rewriting SC#4 so that the problems are fixed. Lets quit dancing around it.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

I think most would agree that you shouldn't fly alone. If so, then the ideal amount of folks present for a maiden would be 2. In fact, new models are maidened at club fields in front of a handfull [or more] of flyers everyday. The right way to handle this scenario is to inform everyone present that this will be the first flight and to also wait until there is a time available to be the only plane in the air.
I agree that 10 minutes before the official start of the big event while dozens of folks are milling around tending to their own business is no time to be checking out a model large enough to do harm.

KidEpoxy

Red
Like you just did?

Am I to glean from your post that you believe SC#4 needs to be fixed
if you want me to try to fix it?

No Red
SC#4 doesnt need to be fixed, it needs to be obeyed... and failing that, enforced.
I find you points contesting that ... unconvincing and unexistant.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Kid

It seems Red's AMA detractor detector is about as good as his reading and understanding of your position on SC #4 I guess.

Since he is on record as saying he is the one… err...how did he put it?? Oh I remember... “Being very pro AMA and quite vocal about it, tracking down and fingering anonymouse AMA detractors, I could have been perceived as a detriment to RCU's long range business plan�…I think Sherlock needs a new magnifying glass to help him track down and finger what you have been saying in this thread. LOL

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

I find AMA Safety Code Rule number 4: I will not fly my model in sanctioned events, airshows and model demonstrations until it has been proven airworthy. easily understandable. Why would anyone want to contest it or spend time arguing about it? If some CD chooses to ignore it that is his problem. It certainly isn't a problem for those that never attend sanctioned events or are not even AMA members. I do have difficulty in understanding how points contesting something can be a the same time "unconvincing and unexistant". Is that a Texas thing?

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

I don't think the Kid has suggested that it be re-written.

I offered a suggestion and a rationale to consider. Where is your input? Or are you just merely attacking one of the AMA detractors you have fingered for an argumentative response?

Thomas B

My Feedback: (4)

I think the dangers of maiden flights in general are overrated and that is why I posted the thread to begin with.

The case of the Aero-Design events proves that maiden flights with a degree of risk can be made in from of a crowd and that the risks can be made reasonable. Given that most maiden flights at R/C type fly in events would be of proven model designs, the risk there is pretty minimal. even in front of a crowd.

I think it is prudent to not maiden a model of experimental design in front of a large crowd, even more so if it is large and heavy.

I recently maidened 4 smaller models of my own on the day before SMALL Steps in Little Rock, AR, plus a couple of others for other folks. There were around 20 early arrivals at the field that day and there were several other maidens performed as well. All were without issues and the models performed well all weekend.I madened a 5th model Friday, after event hours. I maidened a 6th and final model after the event was over on Sunday afternoon. Everything was safely accomplished.

My building and flying time is limited by job and family duties and I often do not get a chance to fly during the couple of weeks before an event. Thus, I safely test new and modified models before an event or after event hours.

Some folks like to have others maiden a model and the talent pool at a fly in is often much greater than at the local flying field.

Given other flight risks at model events (Midairs, equipment failure, pilot error), the slight additional risk of a maiden flight is extremely minimal.

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

The AMA Safety Code Rule number 4: I will not fly my model in sanctioned events, airshows and model demonstrations until it has been proven airworthy. seems perfectly clear to me. If some CD chooses not to enforce it that is his problem. If someone has a problem with that there are procedures that can be followed to report the infraction. Arguing the issue for 56 posts seems to be more recreational than anything else.. What isn't clear to me is how points contesting can be both "unconvincing and unexistant."

jetmech05

Red. this is a forum where we trade ideas and try to understand somone else's point......it makes no difference how many times someone responds...
maiden flights aren't so dangerous....it's just an unproven airframe....to suggest we not maiden an aircraft unless there are only 2 people at the field is ridiculous.......to try and maiden an airframe just minutes before the start time of an event is ridiculous as well.......
perhaps we need to amend events to something such as... event begins at 9AM ends at 5PM daily, open flying at the event site will be from 6PM to 8AM....no flying of any kind 1 hour before or 1 hour after the scheduled event time....
this now allows for night flying or maidens, or open flying at the event sites....it allows an hour for the crowds to arrive and leave....have pilot meetings whatever......
you stay within rule 4, and yet allow for pilots to still have fun and tweak or maiden airframes....remember this is not a business....for most of us this is a hobby...we are here to have fun
there is no need to rewrite rule 4......

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

I have no problem with rule 4. How and when untested planes are flown is up to the CD. I still attend a number of meets a year, from small flyins to events like SEFF and fail to see a problem . It would seem we are trying to invent a problem so that we can expound at length on it? There a 19 words in rule 4 - Now we are up to 60 posts discussing it. Soon we will be rivaling the US Congress - with probably the same results.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

How and when planes are test flown is up to rule 4.
Anyone who has the time to post here, watch TV, pet the dog, etc., but claims to not have the time to test fly isn't fooling anyone. I never buy that excuse, it's always BS. There is always time for what you think is important.

Mr. Mugen

Unless you live up here and plan to maiden before Aug 1st.... It rains on the weekends and after work....how is that? Heck it got to 42 degrees on July 1st and 2nd....still waiting for my 33% maiden. The 2 days it wasn't raining that I did fly the wind was pretty hard so I flew old faithful instead. With 4 kids it is not easy to find spare time. Hell none of it is spare....it's all borrowed.

Kevin

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

If I never flew in the rain, I would almost never fly.

Next case.

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

Maiden flights are allowed in SAE competitions now because nothing bad has happened yet. The second someone gets hurt by one of those unproven models at an SAE competition, you can rest assured that a rule will be put in place that will require models to be flown successfully prior to the competition.

As for allowing maidens during events, it's a bad idea. "Hey you in the air, we're sending up an airplane that's never been flown before. You might have to run for your life and let your plane crash. Just so you know." Doesn't sound too good, does it?

On top of that, people just don't listen. You can announce until you're blue in the face, and you'll be lucky to get the attention of a fraction of the crowd.

Mr. Mugen

I like my planes.....dry. Why not eh? If I could care less about them then rainy day flying might be an option. However I must work for all my stuff so therefore I wait for nice weather to fly. Something about electronics and water........ Wait your talking control line right?

Kevin

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

I guess if you can't figure out how to keep your electronics dry, then you have a problem.

Funny, no one else I know from Michigan has claimed that they've only had 2 flyable days so far this year.

tailskid

My Feedback: (34)

I used to love to go to Ida Grove when they had the BIG fly - in I think more planes were test flown there than at Edwards AFB <g> Anyone else remember the carnage there?

abel_pranger

I think AMA would see it your way, CP, rather than the way the individual that decreed "If some CD chooses not to enforce it that is his problem." A CD is an agent of AMA, and as such if he makes a decision that brings a problem upon himself (as in liability), he also brings the problem to AMA.
A reasonable case has been made for allowing maidens at sanctioned event venues, outside of event hours. If AMA powers-that-be agree, and there appears to have been precedent at some jet events, a rule change or least explicit and documented clarification of policy would be in order.

Abel

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Is rule 4 about anything other than COMMON DECENCY? Should there be special exceptions for those who live where they "never have flyable weather/time" or for those who never have had any trouble in the past flying unproven planes in front of unaware crowds?
Gimme a break.
I don't care if you think your mastery of this hobby is second only to Christ, let's learn to live with one set of standards.
[not directed at Abel, response is in general]

Mr. Mugen

Not sure why it is a big deal how much time I have to fly or why I should explain it to you. I am not for testing/maidening on contest days. I was simply pointing out that not everyone has a wide open schedule. I don't care what your pals in mich. tell you. I was jsut saying that not everyone has all the time in the world to fly. Being a DAD (which actually means spending time with your kids) of 4 has it's barriers. BTW this is a discussion forum.....I need not prove anything. I am just adding my .02 for what it's worth.

I fly my planes on days that are dry. Why the thin suited insults about whether or not I can waterproof my stuff? Keep up the cheery attitude and make sure not to rock that pedistal.

Kevin