Bill Vargas

My Feedback: (5)

Anyone read this months DB's artical?

Multitiered AMA Rates are on the horizon,,, flying big, flying high and fast is gonna cost you more!

Make no difference to me,,, but just curious how this will affect others that fall into one of those categories.


BV

Geistware

My Feedback: (16)

How do you enforce the tier system? If I pay for a larger plane and crash a smaller on, do I get a refund? If I pay for smaller plane coverage and crash a big one, will my claim be denied?

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Yup - there's already a thread here in the clubhouse, with a fair amount of discussion about this. See http://www.rcuniverse.com/showthread...26&forumid=211

Gordonn

Diablo-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

They ought to have categories just like car insurance.
The crashers pay the high rate.
The flyers pay the low rate.

Obviously, teenagers should pay the most.
Old flyers should have to take a test every year to make sure they still are capable of flying (just like their driver's license).


Good luck enforcing it.......hire the R/C police.

jmodguy

My Feedback: (4)

this is ridiculous. Hope ama will get some serious competition out of this one...

Jeff Stultz

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

How do they plan on accounting for life members that already payed for the rest of their lives? Are they going to say, oh that was only for a .40 size plane!

C_Watkins

My Feedback: (10)

Only problem is, that isn't exactly how it works with car insurance.
You don't have to crash... if you're in a category that crashes a lot, statistically,
you pay more, whether you've ever had an accident or not. Also, if you
drive a sports car, or a car considered to be a hotrod, you pay more, whether you
ever had a crash or not. People are wanting to say how safe jets or 40% planes are,
but if AMA takes a stance like auto insurers do, it won't matter. You pay more for
high-performance applications, even if you've never had an accident in your life.

Liability insurance on a Corvette, is more than on a Chevette. That's just the way it goes.
More potential for speed = more likely to speed = more likely to cause increased damage,
in the event of an accident = higher premiums, in their minds, is all I can figure.

Bill Vargas

My Feedback: (5)

I wonder what will happen when a guy gets insured for a 40 sized plane, flies a jet thing and has an accident. (I wonder what kind of an impact this will have for those that fly Giant Scale "torry pine" size gliders?)

Will AMA shut the door on him because he wasn t properly insured?

Who's gonna play the role of "checking" to make sure that you've got the right insurance for the plane you brought out to fly?

Is AMA listening to the Questions of others and do they have answers yet?


BV

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

The whole point of AMA insurance is to make it easy to determine if a pilot is covered. Flash the right color card, and everyone knows you're covered.

Who's going to administer and police a tiered system? I'm sure the AMA will expect the club officers to do it. As a club officer, I know of a few creative places to tell them where to stuff that.

J_R

Hi Bill

As Dave Brown admitted, he has floated the idea of tiered rates before and been hammered. Here is part of the reason why.

In 2002 the commercial insurance policy cost the AMA $768,191. Keeping in mind that about half of all claims are created by 'trip and fall' incidents (thus being shared by all flyer's equally), that means that the amount to be tiered is about $384,000. With about 140,000 adult members, out of the 170,000 total members, to offset the costs it comes to about $2.74 per member. In addition, the self insured portion of the insurance comes to something around $6 per member, half of which would be $3, for a total to be tiered of about $6 per member.

If you were to charge the indoor rubber guys, say, $1 for insurance, and , say, the jets twice the going rate.. $12 per year (use your own numbers if you don't like mine), you would have dues of $53 for indoor rubber and $64 for a jet jockey, saving the indoor guy $5 and costing the jets $6. The 'average' flyer would still pay $58.

The hassle comes at the field. Someone is going to have to stand there and check virtually every flight to see that the pilot has the proper license to fly his plane. We would need a full time cop to keep the club out of hot water. I think most of us would agree that it is simply not worth the effort at the club level.

In addition, it might or might not require additional people at HQ to administer the program. This might drive up costs.

JR

smokingcrater

AMA isn't a license, not even close... (at least not in the US yet, just wait though...)

anyway, AMA is insurance, you don't have to police it because people simply won't have insurance if they fly in a class they aren't insured for. Any signups for a club should include a liability waiver as standard fare anyway, so the liability burden is on the individual.


Example... I just bought a motorcycle, have my motorcycle license, but am not even going to think of taking it out on the streets, I don't have insurance for it yet... (yes, it is somewhat different because veh liab insurance is a law, but still self governing because of the consequences...)

J_R

rkramer

Hmmmmmmmm

Take out your AMA card, look in the lower left corner under your number. What do you see? Have you ever read the AMA by-laws?

JR

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Actually Bill they do have SOME answers.

It turns out that there really are several different enforcement issues with tiered AMA rates. Since they are not clearly soluble and can be confusing they actually increase the workload of the field police, er I mean club officers. That makes them unlikely.

I have spoken with some on the EC and they are and have become aware of the workload that the AMA has put off onto the shoulders of club officers. That is probably the biggest reason that tiered rates will probably never happen.

This is one of the reasons that the new program for introductory memberships is gong to always expire at the end of the month. This was also the reason that AMA did not move to floating renewals which would spread the costs around the entire year but hammer the club officers.

The real answer is that many on the AMA EC DO listen.

Erich_F

I think I'm goin to get into Full Scale Kit Planes. I bet the hassles are much less in dealing with the FAA and insurance companies, than the AMA.


Tougue in Cheek,

Erich

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Glutton!

JohnW

My Feedback: (6)

I understand the idea behind tiered rates. Most insurance is handled this way, ie, auto, home, life, etc. I don't have a problem paying more for my insurance if I fall into a higher risk class. I'm not convinced a tiered system is a good idea with respect to the AMA, but looking beyond that, my concern is where is the evidence that Jets, Giant Scale, etc. are a higher liability compared to say the average 40 sized Sunday pilot? I'm not saying the data doesn't exist, I just want to know where the basis for such a tiered system can be found. It has been my impression that the major claims/lawsuits are related to the average 40 sized plane flown by the typical pilot.

Cheers.

Bill Vargas

My Feedback: (5)

Hmmmm,,, backup data for the tiered rates! Where does this info come from,,, District VP's while they are out an about touring their respective District ?

I hear ya Jim,,, it probly won t happen. Plus there's just no way to police a big public field and those that fly out in the wild within the suburbs of big cities,,, meaning those that refuse to belong to a club and to purchase AMA due to the extra added cost to fly per year,,, club dues + AMA = alot of $$$ for some.

Its a good thing the FCC doesn t make AMA membership Mandatory!,,, but on the other hand,,,,



BV

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

I don't think so. IIRC the largest claim paid to date did not even involve airplanes or club members directly. It was a simple trip and fall type of liability claim.

That is why I think all of us need to look at our flying sites and see what we can do to make the environs safer. I am.

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

Yes, according to the data, about half the accidents are trip and fall types that have nothing to do with airplanes.

Out of the remaining half, the airplane-related accidents, I am willing to bet that the vast vast vast majority involve typical .40-.60 size aircraft, because that's what the vast vast vast majority of pilots fly.

The problem with this is that the individual is not the only one who's liable. When someone gets hurt and hires a personal injury lawyer, the lawyer sues everyone: The landowner, the pilot, the club, the club officers, the township, etc. etc.. If a pilot is flying a plane that he's not insured to fly, he's screwed, but so is the club and the landowner. Yes, the smart thing to do is make sure you're covered for the planes you fly, but how many people will have the attitude, "C'mon, nothing's going to happen?" I'm betting many/most pilots will opt for the cheapest membership option, and fly their big birds "on the sly."

Is the AMA going to cover the landowner and club? Right now, there's no "uninsured or underinsured pilot" coverage on the site certificates, is there? Adding such coverage will only increase the rates clubs pay for their site certificates.

The biggest complaint people have with the AMA is that it's too expensive, and that we should have tiered rates. Nobody stops to think about how much more work tiered rates are, and how much more it'll cost to administer them.

J_R

I agree totally with Matthew.

I have a couple of additional thoughts. (Guess I always do)

Are you really willing to have someone hurt at your field, and not be able to compensate them?

Several states, including California, will not allow you to waive liability. Liability waivers, in many states, are not worth the paper they are written on. The fact is that the club, it's officers and it's members will be held liable if it is not policed and something happens. That leaves the club with an unwanted, and maybe undo-able, job.

What happens with the pilot that just completed his first plane in a new tier and wants to fly? Do you take his word that he has amended his license to cover it, or do you say no, offend him, and demand proof?

Your putting your financial life on the line with the way in which enforcement of tiered rates is handled.

Is anyone really concerned with the less than $10 difference that tiered rates might make in their dues?

JR

beepee

No JR, but it was $10 last year ... and what, another $10 with a tiered system. What about the year after that? It all adds up.

Most of the issues we are grappling with are not the cost, but the management at the field. My club flies from a public field in a county park and we are responsible for monitoring safety. It is tough work on a weekend with 20 - 30 guys out and 3 - 5 showing up each hour.

We require an AMA card for authority to fly. We don't require that a club officer or safety officer be present before someone can fly. Is this now going to put the club's coverage in jeapardy? Will we have to acquire a weight scale to certify a plane is qualification to fly under certain AMA teired limits? REMEMBER guys, we are doing this for fun. If we loose sight of this objective, I too will start building full scale.

... but that is just me.

Bedford

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

I already have plans for two rider scale birds and if the 'job' of being a club officer gets much more onerous, I bet I will have lots of company building.

The clubs yowel when they don't like what the officers do and replace the officers. That is normal, but the tiered rates make all club officers work harder and give those volunteers a lot more responsibility and liability. When does it stop? How much liability are clubs supposed to put on the folks who try to make it work for the modeling community?

You want to fly >55 pounds, move or register with the FAA and fly under the experimental aircraft category. Clubs do not need the added tasking of providing special services for a special few.


Sorry, just my bad attitude.

Sport_Pilot

You would be wrong. First you have to get insurance lined up before the bank will give you a loan. You have to insure each plane individually. Things that increase the base policy, taildragger, retracts, greater than 200 HP or 200 MPH, more than 2 passengers, IFR equiped especially if the plane is small and underpowered, and don't forget jets.

Sport_Pilot

That may be because there are more of them, not that the risk is greater.

Erich_F

I guess some people don't know what "tongue in cheek" means.

I was being sarcastic ya goob!

My point is, the way things are being thrown about, the difference with AMA membership will eventually be synonymous with filing for an FAA airworthiness certificate and insurance for a full scale kitplane.

Erich