Park Flyers
09-23-2009, 06:09 PM
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Park Flyers
I have a question for any AMA VP or Officer who might be on this site. I have been asked by more than one AMA member how much has been spent on the Park Flyer Program by the AMA from it's inception until now and how many members have been signed up.
Frank P
Frank P
09-23-2009, 06:18 PM
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RE: Park Flyers
http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/0...lstatement.pdf
page 5: $109,000 expence
page 17: $35,000 revenue
This is for 2008
page 5: $109,000 expence
page 17: $35,000 revenue
This is for 2008
09-23-2009, 08:08 PM
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RE: Park Flyers
I highly recomend the [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8302197/tm.htm]Make It Up In Volume[/link] thread for the PPP budget.
El Presidente hisself gave the hard facts for the 09 PPP budget,
and even the folks here with skeptical eyes found the prez's response admirable.
We had the budget for 08 in the election subforum that is now deleted,
but iirc the 08 figure was $200-$220k depending on what you counted as ppp costs
To quote Bob M in that thread-
"I'm also a bit curious (and disappointed) that two requests to Mark Smith yielded nothing. I will remember that. "
El Presidente hisself gave the hard facts for the 09 PPP budget,
and even the folks here with skeptical eyes found the prez's response admirable.
We had the budget for 08 in the election subforum that is now deleted,
but iirc the 08 figure was $200-$220k depending on what you counted as ppp costs
To quote Bob M in that thread-
"I'm also a bit curious (and disappointed) that two requests to Mark Smith yielded nothing. I will remember that. "
09-25-2009, 10:27 AM
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RE: Park Flyers
Looking at the PPP cost vs the post#2 $109k PPmagazine
(color by me)
PPP $215k
PPm $109k
which kinda makes us believe we spent ~$100k on non-magazine stuff:
print advertising and promotion, web based advertising and promotion,
POP hobby shop materials, How to Start a Park Flying Site printed materials (which includes the binder and leave behind booklet)
DVD duplication
also an expense per member to process a membership
for 1k-2k PPP members at $29 dues?
Prez DM, Feb 09
The 09 budget for the Park Pilot Program is $215,200. Expenses include print advertising and promotion, web based advertising and promotion, POP hobby shop materials, How to Start a Park Flying Site printed materials (which includes the binder and leave behind booklet) and DVD duplication, contract labor for the Park Pilot magazine (PPM) editor and contributing editors, PPM design and layout, PPM printing, PPM postage, and PPM commissions on advertising sales. There is also an expense per member to process a membership, which includes printing and mailing the membership card and info, of a little over a dollar per member. This total number is, of course, variable depending on the number of members who join.
The 09 budget for the Park Pilot Program is $215,200. Expenses include print advertising and promotion, web based advertising and promotion, POP hobby shop materials, How to Start a Park Flying Site printed materials (which includes the binder and leave behind booklet) and DVD duplication, contract labor for the Park Pilot magazine (PPM) editor and contributing editors, PPM design and layout, PPM printing, PPM postage, and PPM commissions on advertising sales. There is also an expense per member to process a membership, which includes printing and mailing the membership card and info, of a little over a dollar per member. This total number is, of course, variable depending on the number of members who join.
BobM, Feb 09
He's also confirmed that the 2009 budget is approximately the same as that for 2008. I don't know exactly what it was for 2008 but we do know that there was ~$200K spent in 2008.
He's also confirmed that the 2009 budget is approximately the same as that for 2008. I don't know exactly what it was for 2008 but we do know that there was ~$200K spent in 2008.
PPm $109k
which kinda makes us believe we spent ~$100k on non-magazine stuff:
print advertising and promotion, web based advertising and promotion,
POP hobby shop materials, How to Start a Park Flying Site printed materials (which includes the binder and leave behind booklet)
DVD duplication
also an expense per member to process a membership
for 1k-2k PPP members at $29 dues?
09-25-2009, 10:51 AM
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RE: Park Flyers
It appears to me that the cost to date in member dues is probally close to $275,000.00 when all direct costs are included. I would guess that approximately 1500 members joined (a far cry from the 10,000 first year estimate). That is about $183.00/member. I believe that the time has come for the bleeding to stop. I also believe that the VP's that pushed for the expansion of this program take ownership of it and come forward and admit to the mistake.
I believe we are long past the time when we spend OPM (other peoples money) and when we fail, we hide the failure under the rug or in reports (You know-like they do in Washington).
I believe we are long past the time when we spend OPM (other peoples money) and when we fail, we hide the failure under the rug or in reports (You know-like they do in Washington).
09-25-2009, 12:49 PM
#8
RE: Park Flyers
ORIGINAL: frankp
It appears to me that the cost to date in member dues is probally close to $275,000.00 when all direct costs are included. I would guess that approximately 1500 members joined (a far cry from the 10,000 first year estimate). That is about $183.00/member. I believe that the time has come for the bleeding to stop. I also believe that the VP's that pushed for the expansion of this program take ownership of it and come forward and admit to the mistake.
It appears to me that the cost to date in member dues is probally close to $275,000.00 when all direct costs are included. I would guess that approximately 1500 members joined (a far cry from the 10,000 first year estimate). That is about $183.00/member. I believe that the time has come for the bleeding to stop. I also believe that the VP's that pushed for the expansion of this program take ownership of it and come forward and admit to the mistake.
ROFLMAO: Don't hold your breath until that happens.
I believe we are long past the time when we spend OPM (other peoples money) and when we fail, we hide the failure under the rug or in reports (You know-like they do in Washington).
How many DVPs are running unopposed this year? 5 out of 6! That's how many! [:'(]
No matter what anyone thinks, until the membership rises up and takes the reigns, the mules will take the wagon wherever they please.
09-25-2009, 04:27 PM
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RE: Park Flyers
If, in fact, park flier type airplanes are the major type being sold (I've seen 1, one, fly), then it makes sense for the AMA, which is supposed to represent model aviation, to try to get the buyers into the AMA. Whether the effort has been done well , or in a cost effective manner, is another topic. But I don't see any argument that the effort should not have been made.
09-25-2009, 08:31 PM
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RE: Park Flyers
Well, Iam a new (returning) gas pilot. I "re-cut" my teeth on some park flyers. I knew when I got back into glow/gas powered planes that Iwould HAVEto become a member of the AMA again. It is required by the club (as it should be) but it was not until I went to renew my AMA membership that I found out they even offered a "Park Flyer Program". I bought 2 of these planes and have flown there many, many times over the past few years. Ihave also bought many parts for them as well, shoot, my second plane was from a local, well respected hobby shop. They didn't explain it to me when Ibought the plane or the replacement parts. I am suprized, and a little dissapointed. I would have joined if I had known about it.
I sence a little dissention among the ranks...............
I sence a little dissention among the ranks...............
09-25-2009, 08:52 PM
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RE: Park Flyers
It would be nice if all LHS helped with explaining what the AMA is and how your membership in that organization helps our hobby, but apparently, not all do.
Frank
Frank
09-26-2009, 06:37 AM
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RE: Park Flyers
ORIGINAL: BIG4D
Well, I am a new (returning) gas pilot. I ''re-cut'' my teeth on some park flyers. I knew when I got back into glow/gas powered planes that I would HAVE to become a member of the AMA again. It is required by the club (as it should be) but it was not until I went to renew my AMA membership that I found out they even offered a ''Park Flyer Program''. I bought 2 of these planes and have flown there many, many times over the past few years. I have also bought many parts for them as well, shoot, my second plane was from a local, well respected hobby shop. They didn't explain it to me when I bought the plane or the replacement parts. I am suprized, and a little dissapointed. I would have joined if I had known about it.
I sence a little dissention among the ranks...............
Well, I am a new (returning) gas pilot. I ''re-cut'' my teeth on some park flyers. I knew when I got back into glow/gas powered planes that I would HAVE to become a member of the AMA again. It is required by the club (as it should be) but it was not until I went to renew my AMA membership that I found out they even offered a ''Park Flyer Program''. I bought 2 of these planes and have flown there many, many times over the past few years. I have also bought many parts for them as well, shoot, my second plane was from a local, well respected hobby shop. They didn't explain it to me when I bought the plane or the replacement parts. I am suprized, and a little dissapointed. I would have joined if I had known about it.
I sence a little dissention among the ranks...............
Oops.
No matter. It was a great idea (PPP) but like many great ideas it has failed to achieve it's goal. At this pont it is fruitless to subsidize the program with open members $ any further.
09-26-2009, 01:55 PM
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RE: Park Flyers
It seems to me that a program needs to be in place for a while so the program actions can be done and have time to take effect. The program may need to be tweaked until it works. Starting a program, getting it partially implemented, and declaring it a failure after six months or a year doesn't seem reasonable to me. Evaluating where the program is, and what tweaks it needs should be ongoing, of course. Hate them or not, quarterly reports are useful.
09-26-2009, 02:51 PM
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RE: Park Flyers
Robo,
the idea to have A program for PF was good,
but the idea "PPP" wasnt.
We saw the problems coming, but it was more important to start right away than to get it right.
Add to that a lack of benchmarks or exit stategy or defined Point Of Utter Failure,
and we had a nice open ended moneypit on our hands.
Jim-
Hey there,
Just spent the morning 'pit'ing for a CL guy that came by the club,
got me all in the mood for some CL action at the JRmem next sat.[8D]
the idea to have A program for PF was good,
but the idea "PPP" wasnt.
We saw the problems coming, but it was more important to start right away than to get it right.
Add to that a lack of benchmarks or exit stategy or defined Point Of Utter Failure,
and we had a nice open ended moneypit on our hands.
Jim-
Hey there,
Just spent the morning 'pit'ing for a CL guy that came by the club,
got me all in the mood for some CL action at the JRmem next sat.
[8D]
09-26-2009, 03:04 PM
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RE: Park Flyers
Knowing that a number of AMA VP's and Officers monitor this site, I thought I would ask a simple question and hopefully receive a factual answer from someone in the AMA that knows the facts. I can see that and answer might not be forthcoming on this site from any VP or Officer so I will direct a letter to my VP with a copy to the President and see if I can get and answer.
09-26-2009, 04:02 PM
#18
RE: Park Flyers
There ARE NO MASSIVE HORDES of guys flying parkflyers ANYWHERE!!
Even if there were, you are not going to EVER CONVINCE 1% OF THEM THAT THEY NEED AMA!!
You would need to PAY THEM TO JOIN!!
Ooops, that's exactly what we've been trying to do, to pay what/who DOES NOT EVEN EXIST to join our "club".
Anyone, go for a long drive today around all your neighborhood vacant lots, school yards, parks, etc...and tally up all the PFer activity that is supposedly going on.
Where is this huge untapped resource...?
Oh, I stand corrected, a guy from Wyoming just PM'd me stating that he PF'd today.
Even if there were, you are not going to EVER CONVINCE 1% OF THEM THAT THEY NEED AMA!!
You would need to PAY THEM TO JOIN!!
Ooops, that's exactly what we've been trying to do, to pay what/who DOES NOT EVEN EXIST to join our "club".
Anyone, go for a long drive today around all your neighborhood vacant lots, school yards, parks, etc...and tally up all the PFer activity that is supposedly going on.
Where is this huge untapped resource...?
Oh, I stand corrected, a guy from Wyoming just PM'd me stating that he PF'd today.
09-26-2009, 11:40 PM
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RE: Park Flyers
CP-
Do you count when I fly a .40sport at the soccer complex?
What about a 061Wasp powered DNU an a park, is that "park flying"?
One of the problems is that they defined Park Fliers
as to NOT include the little 1/2A planes we have flown in parks / schools for decades
When is flying a 30" model at a park not "Park Flying"?
When that model isnt sold by the reatilers on our committee
Do you count when I fly a .40sport at the soccer complex?
What about a 061Wasp powered DNU an a park, is that "park flying"?
One of the problems is that they defined Park Fliers
as to NOT include the little 1/2A planes we have flown in parks / schools for decades
When is flying a 30" model at a park not "Park Flying"?
When that model isnt sold by the reatilers on our committee
09-27-2009, 12:06 AM
#20
RE: Park Flyers
KE, if you want to see park flying with sub 16 oz glow on a regular basis and occasional .40 sized stuff, take exit 206 off I-5 and I'll "walk you in" to where I fly in less than 5 minutes. Other than that, you will not see any other regular PFer activity anywhere around here. And even if you did stumble upon someone PFing, you might as well try to sell ice to an eskimo if you're selling AMA memberships. The guys flying Slow-sticks are about as heavily vested in this sport as they need to be already.
09-27-2009, 01:34 AM
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RE: Park Flyers
I agree there. Based on the feedback I have seen on these RC forums, many of the e-powered park flyers would rather fly alone and care less about the hobby or helping to promote it. It's the sad truth and I'm disappointed in my fellow aeromodelers for thinking this was. But like we say, "It is what it is."
I wish we could change their minds, but to suggest to them that there is more to the hobby than just flying around your backyard or local park brings a huge backlash of responses. And it ain't pretty.
Frank
I wish we could change their minds, but to suggest to them that there is more to the hobby than just flying around your backyard or local park brings a huge backlash of responses. And it ain't pretty.
Frank
09-27-2009, 01:42 AM
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RE: Park Flyers
Frank
you gave us you take on the epower park flying guys you see online,
have you seen any 1/2a-A park flying guys online, and what do you make of their Lone Wolfitude?
(besides CP & me [8D] )
you gave us you take on the epower park flying guys you see online,
have you seen any 1/2a-A park flying guys online, and what do you make of their Lone Wolfitude?
(besides CP & me [8D] )
09-27-2009, 02:05 AM
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RE: Park Flyers
ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy
Frank
you gave us you take on the epower park flying guys you see online,
have you seen any 1/2a-A park flying guys online, and what do you make of their Lone Wolfitude?
(besides CP & me [8D] )
Frank
you gave us you take on the epower park flying guys you see online,
have you seen any 1/2a-A park flying guys online, and what do you make of their Lone Wolfitude?
(besides CP & me [8D] )
Ken,
Can't answer your question. I don't have any first hand experience on that subject. Sorry.
Frank
09-27-2009, 08:59 AM
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RE: Park Flyers
ORIGINAL: Muroc1
I agree there. Based on the feedback I have seen on these RC forums, many of the e-powered park flyers would rather fly alone and care less about the hobby or helping to promote it. It's the sad truth and I'm disappointed in my fellow aeromodelers for thinking this was. But like we say, ''It is what it is.''
I wish we could change their minds, but to suggest to them that there is more to the hobby than just flying around your backyard or local park brings a huge backlash of responses. And it ain't pretty.
Frank
I agree there. Based on the feedback I have seen on these RC forums, many of the e-powered park flyers would rather fly alone and care less about the hobby or helping to promote it. It's the sad truth and I'm disappointed in my fellow aeromodelers for thinking this was. But like we say, ''It is what it is.''
I wish we could change their minds, but to suggest to them that there is more to the hobby than just flying around your backyard or local park brings a huge backlash of responses. And it ain't pretty.
Frank
Frank you must be a dem. Not everybody in the world wants to be in an org. or kiss a to the ama. There's a lot of us that just like to be left the heck alone.
09-27-2009, 09:02 AM
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RE: Park Flyers
ORIGINAL: The Toolman
Frank you must be a dem. Not everybody in the world wants to be in an org. or kiss a to the ama. There's a lot of us that just like to be left the heck alone.
ORIGINAL: Muroc1
I agree there. Based on the feedback I have seen on these RC forums, many of the e-powered park flyers would rather fly alone and care less about the hobby or helping to promote it. It's the sad truth and I'm disappointed in my fellow aeromodelers for thinking this was. But like we say, ''It is what it is.''
I wish we could change their minds, but to suggest to them that there is more to the hobby than just flying around your backyard or local park brings a huge backlash of responses. And it ain't pretty.
Frank
I agree there. Based on the feedback I have seen on these RC forums, many of the e-powered park flyers would rather fly alone and care less about the hobby or helping to promote it. It's the sad truth and I'm disappointed in my fellow aeromodelers for thinking this was. But like we say, ''It is what it is.''
I wish we could change their minds, but to suggest to them that there is more to the hobby than just flying around your backyard or local park brings a huge backlash of responses. And it ain't pretty.
Frank
Frank you must be a dem. Not everybody in the world wants to be in an org. or kiss a to the ama. There's a lot of us that just like to be left the heck alone.
That's funny Ron. Thanks for the laugh.
Frank