cccdad

Our club has a unique feild that is owned by the county park system and is open to all pilots so long as they have a Valid AMA membership. As a club we have maintained a Fequency post board even for 2.4 to ensure that everyone is in compliance. 2.4 users especially non members have been resistant to post. It is a nightmare to ensure non club members are in compliance, but it is usally not a problem when you ask them to post an AMA card, they usually comply.

Here is where I had a unique run in. A long time pilot/former club member was flying 2.4 without posting his card. When I spoke to him he blew up and at one point threatened some physical violence. I backed off and reported it to the club President. I should also note that I am the club AMA safety officer and I was sure that his AMA was current because I was the CD at an event that this pilot showed up without an AMA membership and I renewed it at that time.

About 5 weeks later I saw the same pilot flying without posting his proof of AMA and asked him to comply. He again blew up and stated he was being targeted. Again the argument was heated he again threatened some violence that disrupted the flying at the feild. But notably he stated that he refused to post his AMA card because there is nothing I can do to stop him from flying, and because it was a public park our club rules did not apply to him.

I have been in contact with the Club President with no results. With land use so scarce I hate to involve the park system, But I have drawn the line at being threatened. I also conidered doing nothing this is a hobby and I dont need the stress, but I am not sure that is the "right" thing to do.

I have also read and considered the 1st line of the AMA safety code which talks about to be in compliance with the safety code you must abide by local club rules. Should the AMA have a report of this pilot.

Silent-AV8R

Has the county given your club the authority to enforce the AMA rules?? If not, then there is very little you can do. As long as the county simply says that you must be an AMA member and does not require that you prove it upon demand from anyone else at the field or to post your card, then there is nothing you can do.

Having said that, if he threatens physical violence then you can call the police. If nothing else it documents the incident. It may draw unwanted attention to the situation, but if he really is making threats (not just being a tough guy) then you should get the cops involved.

tommy s

My Feedback: (55)

Safety should be the primary concern, it's not his field or your field, it's everyones field.
I don't know the law where you live but we have the same situation here in Houston at
Scobee field, which is a county park facility, and unruly pilots and guests can be escorted
away by the Harris County Sheriffs dept or Houston Police. It's a shame it sometimes comes
to this but you've gotta do what you've gotta do.

tommy s

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

My club also operates a flying field on county property for public use. We have an agreement with the county that gives us the authority to establish and enforce rules, and the COUNTY stipulates that anyone who flies there must belong to AMA.

When there are problems, the parks department has our backs. All we need to do is call the parks department and they will take the necessary steps to remove the unruly individual from the park.

If you do not have such an agreement with your county, I suggest you develop it.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Is there a rule to that effect posted on site by the city?



A frequency board for 2.4???? Isn't a frequency board a system to insure that there isn't a frequency conflict??? 2.4 typically isn’t a concern in that regard.



Why is that your concern???? I thought it was the county’s??? I’d say let them worry about it. Fly your airpain and foget about it….

You know he has a current AMA card but you still have the audacity to ask him for it? Sounds like maybe you are singling him out.




In regards to club rules; one only needs to comply to the club rules they are a member of . Where I fly most often there are two clubs...on public property...each with different rules...we comply to our rules and the other club comply to theirs. We also have people that fly there that belong to neither club nor the AMA...no problem for us. How could it be???

It might not be a good outcome for your club if someone decides to force the county’s hand if they actually mandate affiliation to some particular organization such as AMA… Most municipalities understand the slippery slope of such mandates without being prompted…; but if they don’t they are fast studies if given the proper challenge. I wouldn’t recommend forcing such a challenge if possible… and work around it otherwise.

I think your club should just delete the rule in regards to 2.4 frq. board use...would go a long ways to ease conflict. Believe me…going to the police is a bad move…working this out otherwise is the answer…but by all means, do as you wish.

Good luck. Hope you can find the answer.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Let's say I just moved into the area and show up at your field to fly. What is there in writing at this County owned field that tells me I have to show proof of AMA membership?

Show proof to who?

I would automatically assume that if a park official or employee asked me for proof, I would need to show it... but where is it posted that I would need to show proof to any other Tom, Dick or Harry who asks to see it?

If I was to become a member of the local club, then of course I would show proof.

Like others have said, better get this spelled out better with the County if you think it is urgent.

AERORICH73

Ok, the problem is that the club maintains a frequency board for safety purposes. I seems strange that a non-club member with an AMA card would get angry when asked to put his card up on the board, but this fellow does not see the safety issue. As it has been commented already, what is the position of the County concerning the safe operation of the flying site. This info seems to be missing here. I suggest having a meeting with the County personnel about the flying site safety, and what they think about the frequency board idea as something all pilots need to agree on before using the site. Once you have a mandate by the county, then the problem becomes their responsibility to discuss the card issue with the non-compliance pilot. Only a civil battery charge, and court case will ensue if the County does agree to the frequency board. If that is the case, I would prefer to fly only when this pilot is not there. It would be interesting just how he would handle a crash due to his piloting skills where property, and people were hurt.

Rich S.

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

i imagine, that he, like some others of us, knows that AMA has only rescinded membership for one individual in it's history. meaning, that, if you have seen an AMA card for the current year once, you have seen it for the whole year.

KidEpoxy

cccdad-

Did the county give the club responsibility and authority to enforce the county rules?
If not, then the club can either call someone with that authority (cops/Parksguy),
or just fly happy with fellow fliers that might be breaking the county rule.

"A long time pilot/former club member was flying 2.4 without posting his card"
ok, see... you have made it pretty clear that it aint really a Safety issue over freq conflicts

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Would you please enlighten me how posting his card on the FQ board increases safety??? Please???



I can see pulling a pin for the old stuff but for 2.4 there isn't any issues I am aware. Most large events do not require FQ board use for 2.4...it seems really silly at the local field on a regular basis.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

If frequency control reminders are posted in BIG BLOCK lettering to all dummies to read and heed, [who might still be operating on 72], that's about as good as you are going to do for control at a public field.

bradpaul

Take the punch, call the police, and give the guy a nice "time out" in the county jail.

bogbeagle

We have a similar situation at my field.

The land is public and is designated as a site for RC flying...open to all.

Now, when strangers turn up, you can bet that there will be someone who "gets his pants on his head" about whether the stranger has insurance...and so forth and so on. Plain fact is, since insurance is not mandatory in law, it is no business of the other flyers; nor are they empowered to demand proof of insurance or membership of any flying-related organisation. It's surprising how many people find that difficult to accept.

So, a part of me sympathises with the chap who resents being "required" to produce his AMA certificate or "required" to display a "2.4" peg.

I don't know how things work in America, but over here, the Local Authority has no power to delegate authority to a member of the public. Thus, they would be unable to empower someone to "police" the running of the flying field.

That said, we don't encounter many problems with visiting pilots. It is said that, " you catch more flies with honey, than with vinegar".

KidEpoxy

Bog-
Its the authority to TELL folks to leave the county land,
if they dont leave, you call the cops and and have them enforce your authority.

I doubt anyone would sign any contract
that puts a responsibility to enforce a rule on others without granting authority to do so
... would you sign a contract that had you take responsibility for folks you have no sway over?

Otherwise, we're talking about rolling down our windows on the hiway and yelling at a drunk driver... not our job but, we can call a cop to enforce the city/county/state laws

... well, maybe not Drunk Driver, that is a safety issue
while somebody that is a known AMA member is using 2.4 without pin .... is not a safety issue

bogbeagle

Perhaps we have our wires crossed.

On our site, the police could only "move you on" if you were doing something illegal...causing a breach of the peace by fighting, perhaps, or intimidating other lawful users of the land.

Over here, there is no legal requirement to belong to the BMFA (our version of the AMA), to hold insurance, or to use a frequency peg of any type. So, in the case of my field, the police would have no interest in any dispute between modellers. Neither would the Local Authority (analogous to your County, I suppose).

Our field is designated as a flying site by Parliament, via the Secretary of State. It's beyond the power of our Local Authority to change that designation; so it can't prohibit model flying on that land...unless it first seeks authority from Parliament. Which is nice.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Man...Hard to believe you guys sometimes.

Why not just fly your model airpane and if you see someone really doing something dangerous then take appropriate action…maybe even make your report to the proper authority and let the cookie crumble as it may. Provoking a guy to violence over something so silly is stupid…wonder if he just goes off and beats your brains out or simply shoots you in the head??? Yea, that’ll teach him huh… come on guys, we are talking about flying model airplanes aren’t we??


This type of control BS from the OP is beyond my comprehension and to further provoke someone to violence is absolutely asinine. This card crap matters little…

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

bogbeagle,

That is cool to have a designated flying site by Parliament!!! We are not mandated to belong to the AMA either but for some silly reason many people push it up to the point some believe it is.

PLANE JIM

My Feedback: (109)

if the guy threatens you with violence call the cops-it is against the law no matter if you are flying airplanes, grocery shopping or driving your car-it is against the law and if you are over 65 in some states it is a felony to harm a senior citizen . Do not swap insults with the idiot-call the cops and let them do their job, your tax money pays for it.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

of course that is equally a two way street...I guess the other guy could call the police as well and say "He threatened me with violence if I don't use the frequency board for my 2.4 radio"

Is this what we really want??? Conflict at the flying field over something that matters not... AMA is something we have for our benefit...if others can't find a benefit from it, then so be it but to harass them about the matter does more harm than good.


I just fail to see why it is so important to be concerned about another’s affiliation with a member based organization such as AMA. Their choice…matters not.

Mode One

You lack the authority to ask a non-member of your club to comply with any rules. As has been stated, the park officials are the governing entity and unless they were to appoint you as their representative, your wasting your and the other guys time. As the guy is flying 2.4 Ghz equipment, I would just back away. If he was operating on 72Mhz, I would hope he was understanding enough to state the frequency he was on. If he won't comply, then he will likely loose an airplane or two before the importance of a frequency control system is driven home.

SooperFlye

Hey Folks ,,,
legally, cccdad is on the wrong side of this issue and the 'law'. Plain & simple, cccdad has no legal authority to demand or ask for anyone's AMA card. This is apublic park owned by the people of that community and county, including cccdad and the 2.4Flyer that irritates him so. What rules has this flyer violated? Is he getting drunk orhigh in and around the park? Is he loud and abusive towards others in this park? Is he threatening the safety of everyone around? Is he breaking any rules of the park or county? Is he breaking any AMA rules? Is the '2.4Ghz' radio that he is using interfering with the frequency of other flyers and causing accidents? If the answer isNONE of the above! Then cccdad, you don't have a leg to stand on. As for the physical stuff, you may call the police and maybe have the 2.4Flyer arrested but ultimately hecan easily prove that you've been harassing him and the altercation was in self-defense. The court will dismiss the criminal case and afterwards 2.4Flyer will hire a lawyer and attempt to sue you and maybe the county for violating his civil rights.And 2.4Flyer willwin too.

James

Please Note:
This appears to be a rather interesting case of the old coming into conflict with the new. What was once a common practice of the 'board' to help facilitate a safe flying environment now comes a new technology thatfacilitates a flying environment that'seven more safer, without the 'board'. Out with the old, in with the new!

DadsToysBG

My Feedback: (35)

It seems that some of you are jumping on cccdad unfairly. If the park service says "you must have AMA" and there is no way to show the AMA ie: the board, what happens if a park ranger shows up and sees someone flying and no proff of AMA. Will he talk to the flyer or the club that manages the site. cccdad knows he has AMA, but do others? When i travel I follow the club rules. I showed up at a field in Florida one year and was told I couldn't fly unless the safety officer put me on a buddy box first. I said fine. When he showed and saw my 40% he just shook his head and said to fly anyway. They'd never had a GS plane at their field.
As far as the AMA go, they will not get involved. This is a club matter. Reporting him will be a waste on time. On the other hand I see no reason for this person get in a dizzy over such a small thing as posting his AMA card on the board. I know I would if asked.
Enough said, remember this hobby is for fun. cccdad, let someone else talk to him. Enjoy your day with the knowledge that you have done the right thing and let it go. Dennis

1THEPALMER

My Feedback: (1)

Interesting, Here in Canada our home field is also in a City Park.
Our lease with the city includes a provision for MAAC/AMA membership as a condition for flying there. Also as our field is a MAAC sanctioned location our insurance coverage also requires all flyers have current MAAC/AMA coverage. We are required to monitor this and yes if the police had to be called they would escort/remove the person off the property. With possible charges,
We do this by requiring all flyers to display club and MAAC cards on the outside of a flight box or attached to the radio case. Most of us use a luggage tag on a bead chain or laminate the cards,
The 2.4 thing on a freq control board is a whole other argument,
If your location is covered under AMA insurance are not all flyers required to have coverage? If yes best to fix your club charter quick as all club members could be named if a non insured flyer dorks someone and all members would be on the hook for the leagal costs and eventual payout.

cccdad

Very Interesting responses. The Club is a chartered club with AMA a land use agreement with the county requires that we maintain the charter to use the feild. Proof of AMA is a part of the land use agreement. The county has posted signs giving authority to the Club "Safety Marshalls" to enforce flying site rules. I am the only "Safety Marshall" but what is not spelled out is how to enforce the site rules. I have read several posts not to bother with the mere posting of a card. But what alternative is there to ensure Proof of AMA? Posting of AMA on a 2.4 frequecy board is just a convienent place to post. obviously not for frequency control. I have thought to take up the issue with the park, and may as a last resort. And as for taking the punch I have not backed down and should he throw a punch I will pursue criminal charges. My demeanor is not to feed into that violence and I maintain a calm tone and try to reason with him, which seems to aggitate him more.@ Sooperflye You sound like some ambulance chaser lawyer. Views like that are the reason why this countries tort system is costing us all an arm and a leg. Im sure you would argue that a cop running radar is harrassing the public over a civil infraction, as opposed to stopping lead foot drivers. As for getting rid of the board there are still pilots that currently use 72Mhz, But the core issue is pilots that may not have AMA insurance are using an AMA chartered club field. A simple inquiry in the past has always worked until this guy, who has stated he refuses to conform to the site rules.

bogbeagle

I've skimmed through these posts, again. I have a couple of questions.

Are you saying that the County has delegated (or, perhaps, imposed) a responsibility upon you to monitor the use of the land?

If a pilot flies on that land, but does not belong to your club, is he committing a criminal offence? And if he is, are you somehow "required" to stop/report him?



It sounds like your club's situation is a little different from my own, in that you may subject to greater regulation. But, it does all sound a bit woolly.


You see, at our public field, there are two bye-laws in place. These two supplement the Air Navigation Order, which is the UK-wide law which governs all aviation, including model flying. The bye-laws state that no powered model shall have a motor of capacity greater than 10cc and that the max model' weight shall be 5kg (dry). Outside of that, the flyer can do as he will, within the constraints of the Air Navigation Order (which is pretty non-specific...in short, "don't do nuthin' dumb")