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FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?

Old 05-05-2010, 07:44 PM
  #76  
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Default RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?


ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

Since when was shooting pumpkins in the air a criminal offense? Should the Discovery channel be charged? It would appear to me the pumpkins get well into navigable airspace, for they go well over 3,000 feet and therefore must go 3,000 feet up. Does the FAA have any regulations that cover this?
The FAA does have a regulation that covers this. I don't remember the exact reg, but it states that damaging an aircraft, and disruption of air traffic is a punishable offense. So while shooting pumpkins in and of itself is not illegal doing it in a manner that causes harm to an aircraft in any way or at any time is illegal.
Old 05-05-2010, 07:56 PM
  #77  
Erich_F
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Default RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?

Aside from this interesting arguing going on here...I will say I have a lot of vested interest on both sides. As an instrument rated pilot, I have an interest in safe airways. As a 22-year RC pilot, I have an interest in continued privilege to fly my models without government interference. Lastly, as a professional small UAS operator and technician, I have an interest in making a living and supporting my family. The AOPA, of which I'm a member of, operates contrary to the latter, as does the FAA. The FAA could very well operate contrary to my RC flying, also. So, believe you me, I am keeping a keen eye on the Feds, as well as their special interest lobbies like AOPA.

Erich
Old 05-06-2010, 07:54 AM
  #78  
hook57
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Default RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?

Ef, likewise, I have an interest on both sides thatspans 3 decades or more.However, this is much more a debate than an argument. In a nutshell (if you have followed the subject threads) the essence of the issue is whether or not RC aircraft will be folded into the sUAS category. Preference is that it won't be,but one never knows. It's irrational to think that it will be completely exempt simply because that ignores the scope of commercial use possibilities for sUAS equipped with FPV, OSD, and GPS for nav capability. Thus, in the interest of safety of course, there in lay a need to define and seperate it to some degree. In that form it does not constitute intereference, but it does seperate and potentially subject commercially pursued sUAS interests to thesame standard for civil aircraft operators and manufacturers.I would think that you, asan IFR pilot,would see some logic in that regard.
As aformer (my own reasons) 28 year AOPA member, and a pilot who has experienced FAA flight (by inspectors, not DPE's) checks since 1981, I'm trying to determinewhat you mean by contrary? AOPA is contrary to what (making a living or the UAS)? FAA is contrary to what (the same)? The AOPA is a special interest lobby for the FAA? Highly unlikely, perhaps for all its owner/pilot members, but I've never seen AOPA lobby for anything on behalf of the FAA. It really doesn't matter what type of regulatory body it is does it?While thetrooper is writing us the speeding ticket we're cussing him/her out, yet we would call em in a heartbeat when in need. Same principle mostly applies everwhere else too.

ORIGINAL: Erich_F

Aside from this interesting arguing going on here...I will say I have a lot of vested interest on both sides. As an instrument rated pilot, I have an interest in safe airways. As a 22-year RC pilot, I have an interest in continued privilege to fly my models without government interference. Lastly, as a professional small UAS operator and technician, I have an interest in making a living and supporting my family. The AOPA, of which I'm a member of, operates contrary to the latter, as does the FAA. The FAA could very well operate contrary to my RC flying, also. So, believe you me, I am keeping a keen eye on the Feds, as well as their special interest lobbies like AOPA.

Erich
Old 05-06-2010, 12:55 PM
  #79  
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Default RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?

hook57 -

Clearly you are as passionate as the rest of us in the subject, otherwise you wouldn't be sticking around the thread. And that's a good thing; keep the conversation going.

However, the initial reasoning behind my post was/is not to attack/defend any one persons opinion or position on the subject.

The objective is to discuss where we all stand individually and why we stand where we do. Also, my goal is to get a pulse on just how many of our fellow hobbyists are tuned in to the happenings of the AMA/FAA/sUAS 'hubbub'; either for or against.

I'm glad to see that we are not idle about the subject at hand, but I want to keep the conversation healthy and avoid highly polarized discussions.

I want everyone to be able to express their opinion freely without repercussion.

There is a time and place for heated talks, however, as I had stated to PlaneJim, often times our position can be misconstrued through a forum as the tone of our delivery is missing.

I am happy to see that we do, in fact, have a vested interest in this topic. And am starting to see overarching theme's within this thread and other current discussions happening within the AMA's Strategic Task Force Group (that I am also a member of).

What is one of those themes? Concern for the future freedoms of our hobby. And that, my friends (And yes, I consider you all my friends) is exactly what we're all 'fighting' for.
Old 05-06-2010, 06:23 PM
  #80  
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Default RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?

Apwa, you are absolutely correct. Getting a pulse on what Ef sees as contrary was sincere. Isimply didn't see the connectionthat Efwas/is making between AOPA, FAA, and our interests both as RC enthusiast and certificated pilots. I certainly didn'tintend for it to sound that way so ifthe tone of the messagedid, thenI sincerely apologize Ef.

PerhapsI think differently, but for the most part I don't see much use in worrying about water that's already gone under the bridge. I would look at the options regarding what is still upstream though. When I read something that seems a bit out of kilter or unfounded, Itend to question it. Sometimes, when one istired, I suppose one should be a bit more careful about the wording. In anycase, when the finger is pointed at a group or an organization as being atfault for whathistory created or prompted,I often wonder if that in itself is fairly stated or is it stated due to lack of knowledge (akin to hearing it through the grapevine).

So, like the trooper anology, if we keep attacking (orbeing condescending to)the ones were looking toward topreserve what already works,are we reasonable inexpecting their assistance? Great points, great thread, I hope it stays alive.
Mark

ORIGINAL: apwachholz

hook57 -

Clearly you are as passionate as the rest of us in the subject, otherwise you wouldn't be sticking around the thread. And that's a good thing; keep the conversation going.

However, the initial reasoning behind my post was/is not to attack/defend any one persons opinion or position on the subject.

The objective is to discuss where we all stand individually and why we stand where we do. Also, my goal is to get a pulse on just how many of our fellow hobbyists are tuned in to the happenings of the AMA/FAA/sUAS 'hubbub'; either for or against.

I'm glad to see that we are not idle about the subject at hand, but I want to keep the conversation healthy and avoid highly polarized discussions.

I want everyone to be able to express their opinion freely without repercussion.

There is a time and place for heated talks, however, as I had stated to PlaneJim, often times our position can be misconstrued through a forum as the tone of our delivery is missing.

I am happy to see that we do, in fact, have a vested interest in this topic. And am starting to see overarching theme's within this thread and other current discussions happening within the AMA's Strategic Task Force Group (that I am also a member of).

What is one of those themes? Concern for the future freedoms of our hobby. And that, my friends (And yes, I consider you all my friends) is exactly what we're all 'fighting' for.
Old 05-06-2010, 07:35 PM
  #81  
Erich_F
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Default RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?

Hook,

I don't mind clarifying my statement. From my point of view as a professional in the UAV industry for the past 6 years, I have seen the FAA first bury it's head in the sand regarding UAVs. Then, they got pushed to action by pilot groups like the AOPA using scare tactics with it's membership about those pesky UAVs flying all over the place. So, the FAA then casts a toothless "policy letter" saying to the UAV industry, "you better not, or we told you so!" Meanwhile, the FAA with pressure from AOPA and other pilot groups, has been dragging it's feet on putting forth SOME form of reasonable policy to at least allow the industry to develop and test new technologies...not just commercial "for-hire" activities. So, in order for the US unmanned aviation industries to prosper, they are forced "under ground" to develop their technologies...that is, unless they are ALREADY under contract with a US Government Agency that will sponsor a COA. Many countries around the world are fast exceeding the capabilities of US developers. As far as the FAA is concerned, they would just prefer UAVs to just go away. The AOPA would prefer the same, in order to protect a few pilot jobs among their members...under the guise of phantom "saftety concerns." It's pressure like this why the FAA is talking about requiring UAV operators have pilot's licenses and medical certificates to operate a 5 pound mini-UAV. That's no exaggeration, either. The FAA currently makes no distinction between a Predator and a Raven. The answer in all cases is just a nice, simple NO. That is contrary to my making a living as a UAV professional. The AOPA, through their pressuring of the FAA regarding UAVs, is also contrary to my best interest.

About the RC recreational issue: The FAA, in an attempt to be consistent and "fair" will put forth some form of regulation pertaining to RC models. This is also to create a regulatory distinction between those using RC model based commercial vehicles and recreational models. This is just more red tape that over all is not beneficial to the model industry. As for my being a full-scale pilot, I do understand that the charge of the FAA is to promote safety in US airspace, so I do encourage SOMETHING to regulate the operation of UAVs. When I'm toodling along in a 182 someday, I don't want a Scan Eagle stuck through the side of my baggage door.

So, maybe you understand my views a little better now. I see need for reasonable policy and regulation, but so far what I've seen from the FAA is an all or nothing attitude...in recent times...nothing.

Erich

ORIGINAL: hook57

Apwa, you are absolurtely correct. Getting a pulse on what Ef sees as contrary was sincere. I simply didn't see the connection that Ef was/is making between AOPA, FAA, and our interests both as RC enthusiast and certificated pilots. I certainly didn't intend for it to sound that way so if the tone of the message did, then I sincerely apologize Ef.
Old 05-06-2010, 09:43 PM
  #82  
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Default RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?

Erich / Mark -

I just gatta say that you both have great insights into the situation and I thank you both for sharing and continuing to share your thoughts. Especially since you both have a keen eye for the workings of General Aviation, and in Erich's case, the sUAS market.

Hmm, I might be plugging into both of your brains a bit more for insight in the near future. May I?

Mark -
I agree with your statement about the trooper. That's what gets me frustrated when I'm trying to explain my position at times. How to you get someone to see that the very person they're pushing out the door may be the very person they will need assistance from in the future!? It's almost a Catch 22 at times. Yet, I stand by my reasoning that even though we are different beasts - we still need to understand each others workings.

But, how do you get someone to understand something when they blatenly choose not to?

From my experience, I sense a lot of resentment toward any outside industries that impact R/C. I see a lot of people not wanting to realizing that todays aviation technologies are changing the rules. Rules by which we've come to live by. But change is good, right?

Erich -

I'm particularly intrigued by your insight via the sUAS industry. I'm curious about your stance per your statement, "This is also to create a regulatory distinction between those using RC model based commercial vehicles and recreational models. This is just more red tape that over all is not beneficial to the model industry."

Could you elaborate a bit more?

Personally, I believe there needs to be some type of regulatory distinction in place. If not, I would see it as defending so vague a position that we could come across as 'blurring the line' - which we all know the FAA doesn't look to kindly upon.

Also, as I stated before, I'm not a fan of a large r/c jet (piloted by someone who's got the cash to afford it but can't fly it) potentially making us all look bad as it blows through your baggage door on the 182!


So here are some questions (albeit toung-in-cheek, I'm serious):

Where do we start? What should we do or would you suggest in order to begin a road to assembling our thoughts and stance for the preservation of our hobby? Again, I'm serious when I ask this.

Thanks again guys. Great conversation...

_andrew
Old 05-06-2010, 11:00 PM
  #83  
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Default RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?


ORIGINAL: cfircav8r


ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

Since when was shooting pumpkins in the air a criminal offense? Should the Discovery channel be charged? It would appear to me the pumpkins get well into navigable airspace, for they go well over 3,000 feet and therefore must go 3,000 feet up. Does the FAA have any regulations that cover this?
The FAA does have a regulation that covers this. I don't remember the exact reg, but it states that damaging an aircraft, and disruption of air traffic is a punishable offense. So while shooting pumpkins in and of itself is not illegal doing it in a manner that causes harm to an aircraft in any way or at any time is illegal.

Then would that same regulation cover someone who recklessly fly's a model airplane directly in the path of a full scale aircraft? And could the AMA convince the FAA that this regulation is all they need?
Old 05-07-2010, 12:16 AM
  #84  
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Default RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?

Sport_Pilot -

As I recall, the AMA and the FAA have some sort of written documentation about such events (its exact location eludes me at this time) however, I believe it states a maximum altitude restriction for r/c (both near and away from airports) and that deviating from such restrictions is punishable by law or severe penalty from the FAA. Same goes for Gen. Aviation, as they are not allowed to fly below certain altitudes without possible punishment.

Details aside, I believe we're loosing focus of the topic at hand.

As I stated above, it's my belief that due to advancements in aviation technologies the rules by which we adhere to (meaning the AMA) are inevitably going to change. And by others accounts, they too, feel change is in the air (pardon the pun) and that we as a community need to take actions. If at least, to state our voice and to keep certain freedoms of our hobby.

The question is, are we going to be proactive and help create new rules, or will we choose to be reactive to the end result?

As you can tell, I prefer the first. My question to you Sport_Pilot is this: How would you like your voice heard? And what would it say?


Old 05-07-2010, 12:41 AM
  #85  
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Default RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?

I think many here have lost sight of the fact that the FAA is already well along the way to writing their new SFAR Part 107 sUAS rules. While the NPRM is perhaps a year away, at this time there is very little input that anyone can have on their work. The AMA is trying to work with the FAA, but the FAA is being difficult and less than cooperative, so the AMA is more or less in the dark.

It seems to me that much of the discussion in this thread is about what objectives we should have and how we should go about communicating with the FAA. Unfortunately as I understand the process until they issue the NPRM there really is very little public input that can be done.

The AMA is working on a safety program for submittal to the FAA for their approval as a Community Based Organization plan, but since FAA will not tell us what they plan to do it is very difficult to write a plan to cover operations beyond the restrictions the FAA plans to impose on us.

It does appear that the FAA is embracing the two tiered approach proposed in the ARC memo dated April 1, 2009. So hopefully the AMA will be able to prepare a plan the FAA will approve so that we can continue to enjoy our hobby with as little interference as possible.
Old 05-07-2010, 02:13 AM
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Default RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?


ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R
<snip>
It does appear that the FAA is embracing the two tiered approach proposed in the ARC memo dated April 1, 2009. So hopefully the AMA will be able to prepare a plan the FAA will approve so that we can continue to enjoy our hobby with as little interference as possible.
Yes, it does appear that FAA has rejected the AMA objective that FAA have only one tier with AMA (or of course all those other Community Based Organizations.....) making rules to 'regulate by non-regulation' the millions of modelers that do not belong to said CBO(s). AMA will hopefully be able to prepare a plan the FAA will approve to accommodate a small minority of "we," i.e., those that cannot operate within the 'advised' bounds of AC 91-57, without creating a spillover of unneeded regulation that will impact all the rest of. AMA's novel approach to accomplishing this is from the member's view limited to passing down FAA issued TFRs, as there is nothing of any more substance to be found in the designated medium for informing members of AMA's response to the ARC memo. Even the makeup of the published working group that is supposed to be addressing the issue is weirdly improbable - naming an FAA employee in a (the) key position for making the government policy AMA is trying to influence.

OP said "The objective is to discuss where we all stand individually and why we stand where we do. Also, my goal is to get a pulse on just how many of our fellow hobbyists are tuned in to the happenings of the AMA/FAA/sUAS 'hubbub'; either for or against." You say "FAA will not tell us...." and AMA is redundantly feeding us TFRs. What the hell is there to be for or against? If pushed to take a position, I'll align against the smoke and mirrors show. There is faction that is 'for' anything AMA does, and some others that want to know just what AMA is after ("saving the hobby" hysterics don't cut it) before getting behind it or being against it. Sorry OP, you aren't going to get any meaningful answers, 'cause the folks you're asking are all in the mushroom farm.
Old 05-07-2010, 06:02 AM
  #87  
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Default RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?

apwacholtz, Thank you for providing this opportunity for the miniature sky lawyers to argue!
Old 05-07-2010, 10:16 AM
  #88  
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Default RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?

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Old 05-07-2010, 12:37 PM
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Default RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?

My question to you Sport_Pilot is this: How would you like your voice heard? And what would it say?
Normally I would like the AMA to represent. But I am not sure they are being aggressive enough. It would seem they have abandoned us so that they will become a "Community Based Organization" and insure their monopoly. Rather than argue that no other regulation is needed other than the existing AC or at least a modification of the AC. I probably won't be affected, but I don't see how the sailplane modelers can live with the 400 foot rule. There needs to be a waiver for their activities if it becomes against the law to exceed 400 feet.
Old 05-07-2010, 01:05 PM
  #90  
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Default RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?

Sport_Pilot -
Makes sense. A lot of sense. And that's one of the many questions that I have pondered because, at one time, I was an avid sailplane'r. Kinda shoots down the idea of sailing the skies when you can't go above 400 feet! Valid point indeed.

A second valid point is your comment about the AMA representing us as a whole. That resonates w/in me and apparently in others as well. I'm noticing that through this thread (and others that I've read) there are some overarching questions like:

1) Why do we rely on the AMA?
2) What do they provide for us?
3) How can we grow using the AMA?


And of course those are valid questions. And I believe the AMA is beginning to see the rumblings/grumblings from the community about those concerns. Henceforth the call for applicants to the Strategic Task Force - they know they need to change.

Silent-AV8R makes a good point as well. The FAA will make rulings with or without us. And while we may not get exactly what we want, knowing what they are planning and at least making our case (regardless of what happens) gives us the edge to plan accordingly. And I really don't see the FAA wanting to harm us but, we need to know why they're thinking the way they are. If we know where they sit, even if we DON'T agree with them, then at least certain decisions don't come as a surprise and we can work within our own bounds to make the best of what we've been given.

cj_rumley -
I guess my for or against position stands within the hobby community. Do we want to be dictated to or at least have our voice known? If the latter, we at least stand a chance and can be heard (as the AMA is trying to do with the ARC proposal). And I agree, I'm no smoke and mirrors person either. I want to hear it from the horses mouth, and this horse is speaking his mind.

Mode One -
Your welcome and I welcome your position and thoughts as well. If AOPA can grow and be formed from a large group of 'miniature sky lawyers' why can't we? And for as much as their interests don't alight all the time with the FAA, you can't argue that they're voice isn't heard by the Govt.


Thanks all. Keep the thoughts going…
Old 05-07-2010, 10:58 PM
  #91  
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Default RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?

Whatever the rules that may or may not be-we also have a voice of around 150,000 members that vote our politicians in office-maybe we should start a grass roots effort here and publish all the points of contact and start a letter writing, telephone calling, emailing these "shot callers" as well as our elected officials
Old 05-07-2010, 11:57 PM
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Default RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?

Until the FAA issues their NPRM there really is nothing to rail against. Right now all we have is this generalized apprehension that the FAA will define us out of existence. Once the NPRM is published then we can mount a huge effort to counter specific points with specific information.

Right now all we could do is write our representatives and say we are afraid the FAA is going to screw us.
Old 05-08-2010, 12:32 PM
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Default RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?

Silent-AV8R -

Personally, I thing ur right… there isn't anything to rally against. Not at this stage of the game. However, I think the mindset of Plane_Jim is more of what we, as a group of hobbyists, might want to consider.

I'm not going to downplaying the importance of the AMA, as I believe it's our best ally at this time, but I'm going to play devils advocate:

What if the AMA fails in its attempts to properly represent our hobby and community?


I say this because there are many threads on this forum of hobbyists that are saying there is a questionable aspect to the AMA organization. Many people are not seeing it's value or in some cases they don't believe it has value at all. Of course the AMA is trying to change this but, what if they don't?

I'd still like to be flying years from now but, if there is no one voice (i.e. organization) representing my interests, I'm at the mercy of whatever comes my way. And that doesn't sit well with me. This is why I'm part of the Task Force and yes, poking around for information to get a pulse of the community. Because if our recommendations are simply our OWN and not representative of the whole - what good are we going to do for you all?

I'm taking this opportunity to represent my hobby and my fellow modelers very seriously.

Again, thanks so much everyone for the insights. Look for more questions from me coming soon. And if I know something about the FAA/EAA/...whatever that may impact our hobby - I'll be sure to let you all know.
Old 05-08-2010, 02:12 PM
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Default RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?

Right now all we have is the AMA. At least we were represented on the ARC by the AMA, individuals would not have been given a seat at that table. Once the NPRM is issued then we as individuals can, and should, comment. Just as with the NRA, they actively represent their membership, but they also ask the individuals to get active. I think the same approach will be what we are looking at doing.

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