Access

I've read the fine print on some of these TFRs and they often have a clause like follows:

"All emergency/life saving flight (medical/law enforcement/firefighting) operations must coordinate with ATC prior to their departure at 512-369-7841 to avoid potential delays."

Is this safe? What happens if, say, a child is injured in an automobile accident and the life-flight heli ends up sitting on the pad for 5-10 minutes while the operator tries to connect, gets a busy signal, tries again, etc. What if they can't make it to the injury scene in time, and the child dies b'cos of it?

What an onerous VIP policy, VIPs may develop an inflated sense of self-importance, based on their wealth, political power, or celebrity status, but that doesn't make it okay to sacrifice the life of a child just so some VIP can get special treatment (IMO).

It's very unrealistic to expect that emergency services will have some kind of foreknowledge / advance knowledge of exactly what kind of emergencies will come up during these times and what assets they will be required to launch in order to save lives, put out fires, or stop a criminal on the rampage.

TimT2000

My Feedback: (1)

Thomas B

My Feedback: (4)

Given that the very vast majority of people that fly high power rocketry belong to Tripoli or NAR in order to get certified for high power, I don't agree with your "public" assesment of that situation. The public flying model rockets are not affected by the waiver: only Tripoli and NAR members with HPR certs are able to fly models that require the waiver.

..............................

It has already been published that the AMA is going after relief for all model aviation, not just AMA sanctioned events. You are making too much of the way it was phrased.

Given that the NAA and the EAA and other sport aviation groups also have events and competitions that could easily be affected by the current state of TFRs, they actually DO have a dog in the flight, for event exceptions. Imagine if the POTUS wanted to visit Oshkosh during the EAA fly in...or visit near the site of other national aviation events while they are occuring: the National Aerobatic Championships, the Reno Air races, etc, etc. The results would be devastating for those events. It makes sense to work together and bring a bigger group of affected folks to the attention of the FAA.

I am willing to give the AMA a chance to work the problem before pre-condeming them.

Thomas B

My Feedback: (4)

Asking for an uneeded FAA wavier for a planned AMA event is a silly idea. Why do the paperwork for no reason, when it is not needed? Our normal see and completely aviod any low level full scale aircraft when flying models works fine.

(The waiver system will not work wiht the TFR situation...the TFR trumps everything.)

The fuss is about the chance of a club planning, advertizing and funding an event that can be cancelled by a TFR (and it HAS happened) that pops up just before the event. People have travelled many miles and then found out that the event was ruined at the last moment by a late breaking TFR.

KidEpoxy

"I am willing to give the AMA a chance to work the problem before pre-condeming them. "


Great
Go back to the '80s and see how they 'work the problem' with AC91-57 / AFS400(G-0801) and such,
and then come back here to tell us how they put an end to the fed model controling hooey

If the AMA dont lobby for us, who will
AMA spent how much on lobbyist for last 10 years? 10 years lobbying would be a whole lotta $, right?

cj_rumley

I am willing to give AMA a chance to work the problem too. The problem affects all of MA, and AMA's mission statement and favored tax status (IRS 501 c 3) require that they address the interests of the whole of MA in the US.

You did not reply to my question re the logic of a stepwise approach that first addresses the AMA parochial interests or how it relates ultimately to relief for the benefit of all of MA. Not that it is your responsibility - AMA has not provided any rationale for it.

Clearly we have discussed this enough that we should just agree to disagree on some points. Thanks for a thought-provoking exchange that I have enjoyed and learned from.

Cletus

DeferredDefect

Still going on about this? Really?You know you can spend the time building or something during this epic-awful-disasterous-near-death situation; That, instead of complaining.

cj_rumley

I believe RCU rules permit users to refrain from opening threads they don't want to see.

dbcisco

Ditto!

Thomas B

My Feedback: (4)

I have enjoyed the exchange as well! Civil and friendly debate can be rare on here.

I skipped that stepwise point as it looks to be one we will have to agree to disagree on. But, I am willing to have one more go.

To me, it seems MUCH easier to propose to the folks creating the TFR that certain events and locations be exempted. This gives them specific times and locations and these events are managed by AMA contest directors or event directors that have some oversight on what is going on at these specific events. (Same basic situation with GA events) Gives the powers that be a chance to test the waters before wading in deeper, with broader exemptions. Having the limited exemptions work out to be trouble free will reinforce the validity of extending more exemptions.
I think the logic of the stepped approach seems obvious, at least to me.

In my opinion, the three step AMA approach has each step very closely related. I think you view the third step as some sort of orphan stepchild that will be ignored, when it has not been proven to be the case. Others have made the case that AMA might not have the best statement and policy writers around...perhaps phrasing the subject we are talking about differently might have better conveyed a stronger position that matches the actual AMA stance more closely.

cj_rumley

Okay, let's wait and see.....and hope there will not be an "I told you so" op to crop up.

cletus

dbcisco

From the FAA regarding TFRs and Notams:

" INDIVIDUALS MAY SUBMIT A REQUEST FOR A FAA WAIVER AT HTTPS://WAIVER.C3.FAA.GOV "

KidEpoxy

You would think it wouldnt be too hard to get a waiver for toy airplanes below 400' agl.

What I dont recommend,
is reminding the FAA when asking for that waiver,
that it takes millions of dollars of insurance to safely operate one of these dangerous RC aerial devastation machines,
if the goal is to act like they are harmless enough to get waived out of the TFR

timcat26

This NOTAM was for one 10a-3p period on a Monday here in ATL. That's it. This has also become standard procedure when one of our Executive Jets hits town, which ain't that often. In fact, this is the first one I can recall in 2 years of flying at our Club. Maybe I just missed the others?

I don't care for it but am not going to get all worked up about 5 hours in the middle of a Monday. Sorry.

For those that have their fields closed for a protracted period due to long term VIP visits, this does not apply. I would be awfully mad if I couldn't fly for 2 weeks because the President or V.P. were 40 miles away from me.

dbcisco

I am more concerned about road construction and repairs turning my 15 minute drive to work into a 1 hour adventure for six months.
The Gov't does this stuff only to annoy everyone.

dbcisco

I am still wondering if the AMA gets NoTAMs issued for their big events like all the other airshows.
If they aren't, they should.

Lifer

My Feedback: (1)

Question:

If you were flying your 5 or 6 pound sport plane at your field and kept it below 100 feet, how would they know? Do they send the Secret Service of Federal
Marshalls out to the field. Even if you were caught, what if you never got the notification?

I was in the hobby when someone tried to hit President Carter with a trainer plane. Missed by some 300 yards. The feat would, in itself, require LOT of flying skill. I've seen guys unable to hit a tethered balloon at 50 feet.

Just don't see how they could know, or monitor our activities. I don't advocate breaking the law, but this seems a little extreme.

dbcisco

You can set off fireworks in the woods too. You probably won't get caught.
That doesn't make it legal or something that any organization would condone.
I understand why the AMA and clubs should follow NOTAMS, it is law.
What you do off their property is your business but don't expect any insurance to cover you if things go wrong.

ira d

I think many people are making a bigger deal out of the notams than need be, Personaly I doubt theFAA cares or knows who is flying what unless you happen
to be real close totheevent where the vip is or his aircraft. OTH the notam is there in case the gov feels the need to intervein in some model activity that they
may feel could be a threat in some way. I would dare to guess if you are caught flying a model inside the notam area as long as youstop flying when asked
there wont be any problem.

Thomas B

My Feedback: (4)

A few people will never get the word in time. Heck, if I had not been on line I would not have known about the TFR for DFW last week (I do not check my email or the AMA list of TFRs very often.) I might have gone flying in the late evening and inadvertently busted the TFR.

Probably true that an inadvertent breaking of the TFR will not cause anything serious, but why not appear responsible to the powers that be? No, the situation is not fair, but we will have tooo work in the political system to get anything changed.

I think it is worth obeying the letter of the law on the TFRs that affect us. There have been some contact between government leaseholders and clubs on government making sure that the TFR is followed, so the TFR is communicated to a lot of groups, not just law enforcement.

Our hobby needs to look reasonable and responsible to the feds as we start to negotiate exemptions to the TFRs and continue to negotiate the upcoming FAA rules for sUAS and model aircraft operations covered by the recent ARC on that subject.

KidEpoxy

"..... continue to negotiate the upcoming FAA rules for sUAS and model aircraft operations covered by the recent ARC on that subject"

what? Negotiate?
What happened to the plan to use OMB119 to sUAS2.1 like faa said we should?

dbcisco

Kid,
The downside of AMA involvement was this;
the FAA basically was concerned rules for commercial sUAV's and has simpler (realistic) guidelines for model aircraft.
The AMA's recommendation is to force all model aircraft users to join the AMA.

Hate to call it a conspiracy but it reads like the AMA doesn't even want an airhog in a living room unless the AMA is getting $60/yr.
My prediction is: If the AMA gets forced on everyone, dues will at least double. Remember what happened to insurance premiums when auto insurance became mandatory. premiums went up 10X overnight.

edsland

We get the word through our club and the fact that the city closes our field while the TFR is in effect. If we tried to fly a ranger would chase use off, and since we are on forest preserve property we can't fight it. I served in Viet Nam my son in law is going to Afghanistan for a second time, fighting for peoples rights, yet it seems all this bull about not being able to fly a model plane because of a vip visit is caving in to the terrorist.