RCU Forums

RCU Forums (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/)
-   AMA Discussions (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/ama-discussions-74/)
-   -   AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/ama-discussions-74/11400197-ama-emails-drones-right-fly.html)

bradpaul 02-06-2013 03:22 PM

AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 
Received two very interesting and potentially important emails today from the AMA:

"Do we have the right to fly?"

http://view.exacttarget.com/?j=fe591...711779&r=0

and an"AMA Leader Member Action Alert"

http://view.exacttarget.com/?j=fe4d1...731376&r=0

Various state and local governments are looking at laws and regulations to ban drones. How this might have the potential to effect our hobbyiest activities needs to be adressed.

BTW a local city has passed a regulation on drones......................

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...es_700269.html

Brad<br type="_moz" />

vertical grimmace 02-06-2013 04:38 PM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 
I am glad to see the states passing "anti drone"legislation. I feel that we are not flying drones, and if properly educated our legislature will agree. The threat of drones effecting privacy rights by law enforcement is a scary proposition to me. A much bigger issue than our "right to fly".

Unfortunately, the way the governments typically look at things, we do not have the right to fly. The only rights we have are specifically protected by the constitution. Even those are being wittled away. How many times do you hear "driving is a privilege, not a right"? Even though at this point, driving is very necessary to exist in this country. Unfortunate as well I might add. I wish I did not "have" to drive.

We very easily could lose our ability to fly our planes. Just like my addy sais, "they will learn to be satisfied with less". It is inevitable IMO

combatpigg 02-06-2013 05:22 PM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 
I agree.
I'm glad to see people resisting the world that guys like George Orwell and H.G. Wells might have only been able to imagine.

littlecrankshaf 02-06-2013 05:52 PM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 
Quote:

ORIGINAL: vertical grimmace

The only rights we have are specifically protected by the constitution.

Not meant to be argumentative, so please forgive my snippet but IMO our constitution was to affirm where our "rights" actually come from...and outline the "duty" of our government's service to us.

cfircav8r 02-06-2013 06:38 PM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 
The answer is not to ban the tool but instead actually punish those that would abuse it. The use of drones can have great benefits from providing cell coverage in remote areas, and cheaper/better coverage all over, to search and rescue, and a multitude of other uses that will have absolutely nothing to do with police or military applications. As with any other tool it can be missused even by those sworn to protect our rights. We all know the best answer to the problem is not to ban drones, and littlecrankshaf hit it on the head, but that is too much to ask nowadays.

Hossfly 02-06-2013 10:48 PM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 
Guess I am with you or close to it. I just received this from an AMA helper"

Quote:

2/6/2013

Dear Horrace,

I'm writing today to ask for your help in addressing a very serious concern that appears to be sweeping the country.

As of today, a dozen states in the US have recently begun considering state laws aimed at legislating the use of unmanned aircraft systems ('drones'). These states include California, Florida, Idaho, Maine, Missouri, Montana, North Dakota, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Oregon, Texas and Virginia.

The FAA has been tasked with submitting to Congress and making publically available a five-year road map for the introduction of civil UAS into the national airspace system.

As the deadline for the FAA to submit its comprehensive plan to Congress approaches, many states are taking the initiative to draft privacy and civil liberties protections from 'drone' surveillance through state-level legislation. The twelve states listed above all have legislative initiatives in progress, most of them primarily addressing the use of UAS by law enforcement and government entities for persistent surveillance.

However, some of the legislation has troubling language that could have unintended consequences for you and me as aeromodeling enthusiasts.

AMA's Government Relations Team is working to evaluate each piece of legislation as it's being introduced and AMA is taking steps to address these concerns with the sponsors of the bill(s) and the legislative bodies in each state.

AMA is asking that you, as an AMA Leader Member, remain vigilant about any potential legislation you may become aware of in your state and report this to AMA's Government Relations Team. In order to react as quickly as possible we need your help in making us aware and keeping us informed.

Working together we can ensure that model aviation will remain safe from possibly well-intentioned but poorly written legislation. Any information that you believe would be helpful should be emailed to the AMA Government Relations Team at amagov@modelaircraft.org. Please regularly visit the Government Relations blog at http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/amagov/. Or you may call Chris Brooks, AMA PR Director, at 765-287-1256, ext. 276.

Thank you in advance for your help.

XXXX
Leader Member Program Coordinator
XXXX
I don't think I made any friends but then what's new. ;)

I replied:
>>>>>>
OK, XXX, as it sounds just report any item about Drones to the AMA however it appears that the AMA's
desire either for or against Drones is not well displayed.

My personal position is NO DRONES in the Private Sector of civil aviation of any kind or model aviation of any magnitude. As an airplane driver for 41 years, 13 USAF and 28 UAL, I had numerous encounters with private aviation. In addition to several VERY close encounters with private airplanes, and a couple military machines, I had a number of about 15 +/- bird strikes from just a blood and guts to actual airframe holes. Now these are just those that I saw or felt. I'm confident that some near misses with other aircraft were never seen.

I learned to fly when we were taught how to watch the skies. Today's pilots have no concept of clearing the area. I have a son (retired Lt. Col. USAF) now with United. The whole concept is computer flying, therefore watching outside is not known in today's computer-drivers which I don't care to give them the sacred name of PILOT..
Back in my flying days - ending in 1996 - I was very concerned with the head-in-cockpit of the pilots being hired. MOST ex. military PILOTS were good to excellent. Civil AIRPLANE DRIVERS never had a clue outside the cockpit. About the same for RC fliers. I belong to 3 clubs. I watch the traffic. While many non-aviation background RCers are really good after a few years, there is an alarming portion of RCers that have the proverbial Chip-on-the Shoulder that preclude any listening to us Old F_rts as they designate many of us. Unfortunately there are some ex-military pilots that are too timid to help maintain discipline within a club.

Now with that all said to back up my position, just what does AMA want? Like driving either while texting or being under of the influence, and this generation is NOT improving in either form.
If anyone expects me to back up civil drone flying, they are at the wrong church, much less the right pew. So before I start sending information, I need to know who I am voting for, and their position in the situation.

Horrace Cain

"Peace is the one glorious moment in history when all are standing around reloading." Thomas Jefferson

XXXX






bradpaul 02-07-2013 04:33 AM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 
Unfortunately like in the "gun control" debate the public is being influenced by a hysterical media....................<div>
</div><div>I guess "drones" are to "model aviation" like "assault weapons" are to "guns".  </div><div>
</div><div>As cfircav8s rightly said:</div><div>
</div><div> 
Quote:

<span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ">The answer is not to ban the tool but instead actually punish those that would abuse it. The use of drones can have great benefits from providing cell coverage in remote areas, and cheaper/better coverage all over, to search and rescue, and a multitude of other uses that will have absolutely nothing to do with police or military applications. As with any other tool it can be missused even by those sworn to protect our rights
</span></div><div><span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ">
</span></div><div><span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ">Brad</span></div>

BarracudaHockey 02-07-2013 05:56 AM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 
Quote:

ORIGINAL: vertical grimmace

I am glad to see the states passing ''anti drone''legislation. I feel that we are not flying drones, and if properly educated our legislature will agree. The threat of drones effecting privacy rights by law enforcement is a scary proposition to me. A much bigger issue than our ''right to fly''.

Unfortunately, the way the governments typically look at things, we do not have the right to fly. The only rights we have are specifically protected by the constitution. Even those are being wittled away. How many times do you hear ''driving is a privilege, not a right''? Even though at this point, driving is very necessary to exist in this country. Unfortunate as well I might add. I wish I did not ''have'' to drive.

We very easily could lose our ability to fly our planes. Just like my addy sais, ''they will learn to be satisfied with less''. It is inevitable IMO
Unfortunately we are going to be lumped in to that category by
1. Uneducated legislators
2. Those in the "hobby" who insist on pushing limits the rest of us be damned.

I (lord help me!) agree with Hoss, if you can't see and avoid man carrying aircraft, you shouldn't be in the NAS.
Edit: Until such time as such vehicles can be safely integrated.

Sport_Pilot 02-07-2013 07:26 AM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 


The Charlottesville, Virginia ban only bans drones for <font face="Calibri">Surveillance. IMO they should be allowed as long as they don't spy or fly over property below 500 feet.</font></p>

</p>

Luchnia 02-07-2013 07:27 AM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 

Quote:

ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf

Quote:

ORIGINAL: vertical grimmace

The only rights we have are specifically protected by the constitution.

Not meant to be argumentative, so please forgive my snippet but IMO our constitution was to affirm where our ''rights'' actually come from...and outline the ''duty'' of our government's service to us.

Interestingly enough it was "We the people..." and not "We the government..." as it is today!

Those men for the most part cared enough to believe they were one nation under God doing the right thing as a people and today it is one government under man and they are heading down a path of the "blind leading the blind" both falling into ditches. Ok, I had my moment :D

Sport_Pilot 02-07-2013 07:29 AM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 
<div>
Quote:

I guess "drones" are to "model aviation" like "assault weapons" are to "guns".
No the differance in an assult weapon and a sporting simi auto is mostly cosmetic. People really do hunt with those so called assault weapons, and they make good weapons for protection. However, many of the drones look just like model airplanes, yet there is a very real difference.
</div>

bradpaul 02-07-2013 07:41 AM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 
1 Attachment(s)
So which of these are "drones" that should be banned?????


cfircav8r 02-07-2013 08:02 AM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 
No people hunt with rifles that share cosmetic features to an assault rifle. An assault rifle can fire multi-fire/full auto where as the ones being used to hunt are semi auto only. Basically the same gun other than that, yet still not an assault rifle due to that one difference. Drones and models work and look the same to the uneducated and have many of the same features and in some cases are indistinguishable from each other with only one key difference, that is one is used commercially and one is used for recreation.

There is no one out to take our privileges to fly models. We are not being targeted directly, but there is a huge controversy over commercial and government use of drones and the general public couldn't care less if we lose the privilege to fly our "toys." Our only saving grace is there are a lot of level headed people trying their best to minimize the reactionary politics around the issue and keep our privileges intact for the most part. The biggest threat is that reactionary politics are powerful in that they promise results without any logic, just emotion, and we all know that with the general public emotion trumps logic any day.

Sport_Pilot 02-07-2013 08:18 AM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 
I say none, except as I had stated earlier.

bradpaul 02-07-2013 08:19 AM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 
Now Texas want's to ban drones even flown by individuals....................................... .... Hoss better hope that they clearly define what is a "drone"!


http://radio.woai.com/cc-common/mainheadlines3.html?feed=119078&amp;article=107842 77

Sport_Pilot 02-07-2013 08:21 AM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 
Quote:

An assault rifle can fire multi-fire/full auto where as the ones being used to hunt are semi auto only.
Sorry but full auto's are illegal except to those with special license. The assault weopens ban is for semi auto only rifles that share cosmetic features with thier fully auto breathern. The newer sporting rifles look more like assault rifles, and hunting with AR-15's, and simi auto AK 47's is becoming more common.

BTW this is off topic so no more.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...2141357AAmhPKU

http://www.military.com/entertainmen...-round-up.html

littlecrankshaf 02-07-2013 08:38 AM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 
Quote:

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

<div>
Quote:

I guess ''drones'' are to ''model aviation'' like ''assault weapons'' are to ''guns''.
No the differance in an assult weapon and a sporting simi auto is mostly cosmetic. People really do hunt with those so called assault weapons, and they make good weapons for protection. However, many of the drones look just like model airplanes, yet there is a very real difference.
</div>
Funny how just the mere selection of a few words can make a deference in perception...We should only refer to all guns as Defense weapons... And only make laws that severally punishes anyone that uses a defense weapon in an assault action...problem solved!

cfircav8r 02-07-2013 09:20 AM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 

Quote:

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

Quote:

An assault rifle can fire multi-fire/full auto where as the ones being used to hunt are semi auto only.
Sorry but full auto's are illegal except to those with special license. The assault weopens ban is for semi auto only rifles that share cosmetic features with thier fully auto breathern. The newer sporting rifles look more like assault rifles, and hunting with AR-15's, and simi auto AK 47's is becoming more common.

BTW this is off topic so no more.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...2141357AAmhPKU

http://www.military.com/entertainmen...-round-up.html
Assault rifles are select fire rifles only. The ones used for hunting are not select fire and therefore not an assault rifle. The point is it is the perceived difference or similarities that are the root problem. In both cases emotion is the driving factor not logic. Drones will take away my privacy therefore if it looks like a drone it is bad. No matter what it is for it will be lumped into the same pile and regulated the same unless logic and reason prevail. The problem is we are talking about the public opinion and we all know logic and reason have no business there.

airega1 02-07-2013 09:44 AM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 

Quote:

ORIGINAL: Hossfly

Guess I am with you or close to it. I just received this from an AMA helper''

Quote:

2/6/2013

Dear Horrace,

I'm writing today to ask for your help in addressing a very serious concern that appears to be sweeping the country.

As of today, a dozen states in the US have recently begun considering state laws aimed at legislating the use of unmanned aircraft systems ('drones'). These states include California, Florida, Idaho, Maine, Missouri, Montana, North Dakota, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Oregon, Texas and Virginia.

The FAA has been tasked with submitting to Congress and making publically available a five-year road map for the introduction of civil UAS into the national airspace system.

As the deadline for the FAA to submit its comprehensive plan to Congress approaches, many states are taking the initiative to draft privacy and civil liberties protections from 'drone' surveillance through state-level legislation. The twelve states listed above all have legislative initiatives in progress, most of them primarily addressing the use of UAS by law enforcement and government entities for persistent surveillance.

However, some of the legislation has troubling language that could have unintended consequences for you and me as aeromodeling enthusiasts.

AMA's Government Relations Team is working to evaluate each piece of legislation as it's being introduced and AMA is taking steps to address these concerns with the sponsors of the bill(s) and the legislative bodies in each state.

AMA is asking that you, as an AMA Leader Member, remain vigilant about any potential legislation you may become aware of in your state and report this to AMA's Government Relations Team. In order to react as quickly as possible we need your help in making us aware and keeping us informed.

Working together we can ensure that model aviation will remain safe from possibly well-intentioned but poorly written legislation. Any information that you believe would be helpful should be emailed to the AMA Government Relations Team at amagov@modelaircraft.org. Please regularly visit the Government Relations blog at http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/amagov/. Or you may call Chris Brooks, AMA PR Director, at 765-287-1256, ext. 276.

Thank you in advance for your help.

XXXX
Leader Member Program Coordinator
XXXX
I don't think I made any friends but then what's new. ;)

I replied:
>>>>>>
OK, XXX, as it sounds just report any item about Drones to the AMA however it appears that the AMA's
desire either for or against Drones is not well displayed.

My personal position is NO DRONES in the Private Sector of civil aviation of any kind or model aviation of any magnitude. As an airplane driver for 41 years, 13 USAF and 28 UAL, I had numerous encounters with private aviation. In addition to several VERY close encounters with private airplanes, and a couple military machines, I had a number of about 15 +/- bird strikes from just a blood and guts to actual airframe holes. Now these are just those that I saw or felt. I'm confident that some near misses with other aircraft were never seen.

I learned to fly when we were taught how to watch the skies. Today's pilots have no concept of clearing the area. I have a son (retired Lt. Col. USAF) now with United. The whole concept is computer flying, therefore watching outside is not known in today's computer-drivers which I don't care to give them the sacred name of PILOT..
Back in my flying days - ending in 1996 - I was very concerned with the head-in-cockpit of the pilots being hired. MOST ex. military PILOTS were good to excellent. Civil AIRPLANE DRIVERS never had a clue outside the cockpit. About the same for RC fliers. I belong to 3 clubs. I watch the traffic. While many non-aviation background RCers are really good after a few years, there is an alarming portion of RCers that have the proverbial Chip-on-the Shoulder that preclude any listening to us Old F_rts as they designate many of us. Unfortunately there are some ex-military pilots that are too timid to help maintain discipline within a club.

Now with that all said to back up my position, just what does AMA want? Like driving either while texting or being under of the influence, and this generation is NOT improving in either form.
If anyone expects me to back up civil drone flying, they are at the wrong church, much less the right pew. So before I start sending information, I need to know who I am voting for, and their position in the situation.

Horrace Cain

''Peace is the one glorious moment in history when all are standing around reloading.'' Thomas Jefferson

XXXX

I'M WITH HORRACE!





BarracudaHockey 02-07-2013 11:04 AM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 
Hey guys

Lets steer this back to discussions on drones/FPV and drop the parallel with weapons please.

vertical grimmace 02-07-2013 01:12 PM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 
The caliber of many "aussault" weapons makes them illegal (at least in my state) to hunt with. The .223 for example does not have enough foot lbs. to be used for big game. Small game sure, and again, a select fire weapon is not legal to own. Unless a special license is obtained.

Semantics seem to get in the way of our rights as anything else. The public schools have not helped either! Understanding the fine details of such things is too difficult in this sound bite age.

Unfortunately, I tend to not be very optimistic of our future. We are just supposed to keep quiet, go to work, and spend our money. At times it feels like a sophisticated serfdom we have.

Sport_Pilot 02-07-2013 01:22 PM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 
They make the so called assault rifles in any caliber, the M1 was 30-06 and I beleive many called it an assault rifle, not sure if it was on the ban or not. The caliberhad nothing to do with the ban a few years ago. AK-47's are said to be a good hunting gun by some.

BarracudaHockey 02-07-2013 01:25 PM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 
I said please.

combatpigg 02-07-2013 03:23 PM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 
Quote:

ORIGINAL: cfircav8r

The answer is not to ban the tool but instead actually punish those that would abuse it. The use of drones can have great benefits from providing cell coverage in remote areas, and cheaper/better coverage all over, to search and rescue, and a multitude of other uses that will have absolutely nothing to do with police or military applications. As with any other tool it can be missused even by those sworn to protect our rights.
I'm all for their use in search and rescue. That would be their most noble use that I can think of.
We already have manned helicopters to asist law enforcement, but they have obvious limitations.
Drones are obviously seen as a tool to enable "good" to rule over "evil" by those who we pay to protect our right to live in a peaceful society.
That said, I would rather see the emphasis placed on eliminating the "evil element" that has spawned to ruin several parts of what we used to take for granted as "American Culture".
That same culture does not exist anymore. Ask yourselves why. What lead up to the change?
Many here aren't old enough to know what I'm talking about, because they were born into a less friendly, less neighborly and less civil environment.

cfircav8r 02-07-2013 04:43 PM

RE: AMA emails on Drones/Right to Fly
 
It started when the entitlement mentality became the norm. Too many people believe that they are the only ones that matter and everything needs to be easy and free. It has been cultivated by the media and politicians to turn our society into needy sheep with no idea how to take care of themselves, so they have to rely on the government to take care of them and the media to tell them what to think. We shouldn't have to worry about how those drones will be used, as the constitution is very clear on the subject. The fact is they can, and at times probably will, be used outside the legal limits, the same as wire tapping. The technology to wire tap is so ingrained into our communications that you can't really remove it so we have to rely on the courts to reduce its use and live with the rest. Just as will be the case of drones. The key will be to get the laws in place that are designed to ensure our rights are not being infringed without due process (ie: a warrant) and have prosecutors willing to go after those that infringe on our rights. Drones are going to happen there is no stopping the technology, so we have to gear up for the fight over their missuse, and for the repercussions it will have on our hobbies.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:05 PM.