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-   -   FAA fine against drone photographer dismissed. (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/ama-discussions-74/11595811-faa-fine-against-drone-photographer-dismissed.html)

Sport_Pilot 03-20-2014 07:38 AM

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Do you have what it takes to continue the argument about the FAA, or are you going to remain the troll?
Sorry no troll. I apparently know this stuff better than most here.

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Why don't you explain why you believe the government should NOT have the authority to insure that commercial entities do not harm the public.
Untited States Constitution Article 1 Section 8

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

eddieC 03-20-2014 07:55 AM

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As an r/c modeler, we are good to 400ft. Above that belongs to the National Airspace System governed by the FAA.
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A smart man might consider finding out what the exact definition of NAS is. It USED to be 401+ feet AGL, but now is from ground up. I don't know everything like you do, but it seems to me that "from the ground up" means all the airspace.
Please read the Safety Code. The '400 feet' is within 3 miles of an airport, and specifies only to advise the airport operator, not that you're restricted to 400' and below.
http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/105.pdf

For those who care to read it, CFR 71 spells out what airspace the FAA is 'controls':
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieve...r=PART&ty=HTML

There is uncontrolled airspace ! (which any newly-minted Private Pilot can explain :cool:), that is generally below 1,500' above ground level (AGL). The airspace is explained and illustrated on any aviation Sectional map. For those who care to look...

So IMO as RC'ers, we're good from the ground to 1,500', and further we shouldn't fly within 3 miles of an airport above 400' without first advising the airport operator. Which means we're still OK above 400' within 3 miles of an airport. Just advise the operator.

It just depends if it's JFK or Podunk City. This is where the common sense comes in.

JohnShe 03-20-2014 08:04 AM

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Originally Posted by psuguru (Post 11764119)
A couple of things:
A R/C model aircraft is not a "drone" in the usually accepted sense, especially if a FPV system isn't being used.
The issue of "compensation" hangs on the intended purpose of the flight. If you fly a model for the purpose of taking photo's for your own interest, then that's not a commercial activity. If someone then says, "Hey, I like your photo's, I'll buy them", this doesn't then cause the flight to have been for gain or reward ie the purpose of a flight can only be determined a priori.

First, a "drone" is a remote controlled aircraft. The control technology doesn't matter and is not part of the definition. An R./C aircraft is a drone and it can be operated in pure line of site or FPV.

Second, while commercial use is part of the definition, the real issue is safety of operation. We model aviators set ourselves aside by flying in away from populations or structures. Commercial operators are, in many cases doing the exact opposite.

JohnShe 03-20-2014 08:06 AM

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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot (Post 11764078)
Read the latest issues of MA. They are embracing drones, and possibly commercial ones as well.

No, the AMA is embracing FPV for recreational use. They are working with the commercial drone community to prevent the cross over into recreational use.

Sport_Pilot 03-20-2014 08:08 AM

The FAA controls all navigable airspace, uncontrolled airspace is simply airspace where radio contact is not required. Navigable airspace is any airspace below 1000 feet over congested or populated areas, and 500 feet from all buildings and people in rural areas, and all airspace needed for an aircraft to land. There are more specific reauirements in the FAA regs for airports, but generally below 500 feet 3 miles from an airport is good.

JohnShe 03-20-2014 08:11 AM

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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot (Post 11764123)
Sorry no troll. I apparently know this stuff better than most here.



Untited States Constitution Article 1 Section 8

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

Wow! Do you have dyslexia? It's no shame, just an unfortunate disability. But that means you have to be careful when you read something so as not to misinterpret it. In this case, when the states ratified the constitution, the gave the federal government the authority to regulate commerce. As such, the federal government does have the authority to insure that commercial entities do not harm the public

Sport_Pilot 03-20-2014 08:12 AM

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No, the AMA is embracing FPV for recreational use They are working with the commercial drone community to prevent the cross over into recreational use..
And the FAA doesn't want sUAV's operating in non navigable areas using airports. The AMA, FPV, and sUAV people both recreational and commercial will have to work together and use of AMA fields may become a requirement for Charter.

Sport_Pilot 03-20-2014 08:17 AM

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Originally Posted by JohnShe (Post 11764157)
Wow! Do you have dyslexia? It's no shame, just an unfortunate disability. But that means you have to be careful when you read something so as not to misinterpret it. In this case, when the sates ratified the constitution, the gave the federal government the authority to regulate commerce. As such, the federal government does have the authority to insure that commercial entities do not harm the public

I am not the one of dyslexia. Do you know the definition of "among"? The constitution gave authority to commerce only between states not within a state. However there are exceptions if the product can easily be used for interstate commerce like a car or airplane. You cannot claim you are making a car or plane for only interstate commerce. However this is not the same with a small sUAV operated from a single transmitter and must return to that point.

JohnShe 03-20-2014 08:23 AM

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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot (Post 11764159)
And the FAA doesn't want sUAV's operating in non navigable areas using airports. The AMA, FPV, and sUAV people both recreational and commercial will have to work together and use of AMA fields may become a requirement for Charter.

Commercial drones will be operating in areas away from almost all recreational fields. I do not expect, or want and I will not allow commercial operations from recreational fields. I do not believe it to be in the best interest of the AMA to allow commercial operations from recreational fields.

And, why do multiroter aircraft have to use airports, they can be launched from parking lots, vacant lots, streets or yards.

And, since the FAA has not published their rules, how do you know what they want anyway? Are you a mind reader now?

JohnShe 03-20-2014 08:31 AM

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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot (Post 11764161)
I am not the one of dyslexia. Do you know the definition of "among"? The constitution gave authority to commerce only between states not within a state. However there are exceptions if the product can easily be used for interstate commerce like a car or airplane. You cannot claim you are making a car or plane for only interstate commerce. However this is not the same with a small sUAV operated from a single transmitter and must return to that point.

You do know that the FAA regulates air traffic, both commercial and noncommercial, within states and territories as well as between, or among states and territories.

Sport_Pilot 03-20-2014 09:09 AM

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And, why do multiroter aircraft have to use airports, they can be launched from parking lots, vacant lots, streets or yards.

Yes the helicopters and quad copters types can be launched anywhere. But the larger fixed wing types cannot. The Georgia Tech research types were large fixed wing types and could fly well past the field, though they tried to fly above roads and public property.

The larger fixed wing type use less energy and can stay aloft and fly further out than any copter type aircraft.

Sport_Pilot 03-20-2014 09:12 AM

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Originally Posted by JohnShe (Post 11764171)
You do know that the FAA regulates air traffic, both commercial and noncommercial, within states and territories as well as between, or among states and territories.

Yes but only in navigable airspace and with people on board. The supreme court decided that many years ago that the navigable airspace was interstate airways and thus may be regulated by the federal governement. Now we are talking about using the non navigable airspace and not considered an interstate airway.

JohnShe 03-20-2014 09:54 AM

Here is a great article about the FAA and the drone issue.

[h=2]FAA Under The Gun To Issue sUAS Rule[/h]
By Graham Warwick
Source: Aviation Week & Space Technology



http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....p20-671583.xml

An interesting remark from the AMA seems to support LCS and SP on the desire to not see small drones regulated.

"“We believe community-based safety programming similar to what has already proved successful for model aviation can be equally effective for small UAS and can allow these platforms to operate safely and harmoniously in the national airspace system,” says the AMA"

I still think they need to be regulated in terms of reliable systems, trained pilots, sufficient insurance and overall ethical behavior. I simply don't see self regulation doing that.

JohnShe 03-20-2014 09:56 AM

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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot (Post 11764202)
Yes but only in navigable airspace and with people on board. The supreme court decided that many years ago that the navigable airspace was interstate airways and thus may be regulated by the federal governement. Now we are talking about using the non navigable airspace and not considered an interstate airway.

The FAA has the right and responsibility to regulate commercial aviation within state boundaries. You are just try to split hairs with a baseball bat.

DocYates 03-20-2014 10:08 AM

The next phase will have to include the application for and purchase of a business license if you do indeed plan to charge for your services. Believe me, like I said it is all about the benjamins. Wanna get paid to play, you gonna have to pay. The government, whether it be local, community, state, or national is not going to let you earn a single penny from your endeavors unless you purchase one. Get caught operating without it, and I bet the fine will be more severe than any coming down from the FAA. I have friends who work in the tax / licenses office, and they are serious about these issues.

JohnShe 03-20-2014 10:17 AM

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Originally Posted by DocYates (Post 11764234)
The next phase will have to include the application for and purchase of a business license if you do indeed plan to charge for your services. Believe me, like I said it is all about the benjamins. Wanna get paid to play, you gonna have to pay. The government, whether it be local, community, state, or national is not going to let you earn a single penny from your endeavors unless you purchase one. Get caught operating without it, and I bet the fine will be more severe than any coming down from the FAA. I have friends who work in the tax / licenses office, and they are serious about these issues.

Absolutely correct, a business license ensures legal operation of a business.

Sport_Pilot 03-20-2014 10:21 AM

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I still think they need to be regulated in terms of reliable systems, trained pilots, sufficient insurance and overall ethical behavior. I simply don't see self regulation doing that.
I agree, I just don't think the FAA or any other federal agency should do this. Also it does not need to be as extensive as the Feds would like to do this. It could be as simple as someone flying in front of an official of the state or county, similar to DMV driving test. I do expect that the manufactures and insurers could do a credable job of coming up with standards and certification of manufactured equipment. Similar to UL and FM for electical and fire protection equipment.

Sport_Pilot 03-20-2014 10:27 AM

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Originally Posted by JohnShe (Post 11764227)
The FAA has the right and responsibility to regulate commercial aviation within state boundaries. You are just try to split hairs with a baseball bat.

Fine, where does it say anything about the FAA regulating anything that flies in non navigable airspace. The 1958 FAA act says they have the right in navigable airspace, the SCOTUS in the 20's said navigable airspace. I cannot find where this was reversed, though I suppose it is possible.

Sport_Pilot 03-20-2014 10:30 AM

Actually there are many business that do not need a license. For example, one can buy and trade from garage sales and E-Bay in most states without a license.

JohnShe 03-20-2014 10:46 AM

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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot (Post 11764248)
Actually there are many business that do not need a license. For example, one can buy and trade from garage sales and E-Bay in most states without a license.

You are splitting hairs again.

JohnShe 03-20-2014 10:48 AM

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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot (Post 11764239)
I agree, I just don't think the FAA or any other federal agency should do this. Also it does not need to be as extensive as the Feds would like to do this. It could be as simple as someone flying in front of an official of the state or county, similar to DMV driving test. I do expect that the manufactures and insurers could do a credable job of coming up with standards and certification of manufactured equipment. Similar to UL and FM for electical and fire protection equipment.

Maybe so, but congress wrote the law and put the FAA in charge. And you can be sure that local laws will also be written to regulate drone operations.

Sport_Pilot 03-20-2014 11:48 AM

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Maybe so, but congress wrote the law and put the FAA in charge.
From the FAA act of 1958 Sec 307

AIR TRAmC RULES
(c) The Administrator is further authorized and directed to prescribeair traffic rules and regulations governing the flight of aircraft,for the navigation, protection, and identification of aircraft, for theprotection of persons and property on the ground, and for the efficientutilization of the navigable airspace, including rules as to safe altitudesof flight and rules for the prevention of collision between aircraft,between aircraft and land or water vehicles, and between
aircraft and airborne objects.

Looks to me like this says they are limited to control of navigable airspace. Now their are budget bills and I have looked at those and I have looked at the Reauthoization Act of 1994 and I see nothing that gave them control of non navigable airspace.

Sport_Pilot 03-20-2014 11:53 AM

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Can you imagine ANY state official (I won't even begin to suggest smaller governmental entities) being conversant in the operation of any of the passenger aircraft you have ridden (try a Boeing 777 if you have never flown commercial aircraft)?

Actually yes they can and do a good job of running state owned airports as well. But what does it matter? we are not talking 777's here, this is just small model airplane sized sUAV's. Nothing complicated. Why don't you go find some proof instead of calling me a troll? Can't do it so you resort to name calling. Like most libs.

jet22b 03-20-2014 01:42 PM

Hey Guys;
I don't know if this is good or bad news, but, take a look at the link below!!
http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/ama...unenforceable/
Sonny
aka
jet22b

JohnShe 03-20-2014 01:59 PM

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Originally Posted by jet22b (Post 11764377)
Hey Guys;
I don't know if this is good or bad news, but, take a look at the link below!!
http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/ama...unenforceable/
Sonny
aka
jet22b

We have been discussing this for 11 pages, so it is nothing new.


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