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fliers1 05-06-2019 11:28 AM

FAA registration numbers and enforcement
 
AND NOW THE LEADER MEMBER MINUTE (you may simply read this to your club)There is still a lot of confusion about FAA registration numbers and enforcement. The following are some questions that I have received, with answers provided by Chad Budreau, AMA executive director.

(Question) What is AMA's policy on ensuring that members comply with the FAA registration rule?
(Answer) You are not FAA's enforcement agency. Your role as a club and member is to educate and encourage registration, but you should not police registration. Even law enforcement personnel are not to police registration, unless they suspect a threat, or if they are conducting an investigation. Even then, law enforcement does not have direct access to the FAA database to validate registration numbers.

(Question) If there is an incident and the club/member is sued, will AMA insurance cover the club and members, even if they did not follow the registration rule?
(Answer) We asked our legal counsel if a club could be held liable should a member not comply with the FAA registration rule. We live in a society in which anyone can sue, but our legal counsel believes that clubs could not be held accountable. In addition, the FAA would not pursue a club for a member's non-compliance in the same vein that the FAA would not penalize an airport for an individual pilot failing to renew his or her pilot's license. AMA club benefits and status are not contingent upon every member complying with the registration rule. There are some situations in which a club or CD might be asked to police/inspect registration. An example would be if a club's landowner requests that all modelers be registered. Another possible scenario would be an event held at an airport and the air traffic control tower requires inspection of registration. AMA's position is to educate and ask for compliance with the registration law, but we are not to police registration.
If you have any questions or ideas for a future Leader Member Minute, please feel free to contact me.

Scott Anderson
AMA National Leader Member Coordinator
pscottanderson@gmail.com

init4fun 05-06-2019 12:51 PM


Originally Posted by fliers1 (Post 12523384)
..... Even law enforcement personnel are not to police registration, unless they suspect a threat, or if they are conducting an investigation. Even then, law enforcement does not have direct access to the FAA database to validate registration numbers......

:rolleyes: Real world translation ; "Probable Cause" ......

You know , , , like , "He has a big bushy beard , looks like he could be a terrorist to me !"
Or , How bout this one ;
Gee well looky what we got here Cletus , this guy's got GERMAN markings on his flying toy , maybe he a NAZI !"

:eek: Rest assured law enforcement will have all the names , addresses , and FAA numbers of Joe Q Public that they ask the FAA for .........

speedracerntrixie 05-07-2019 08:14 AM

It would seem to me that between this thread and Appowner's last thread that things some of us have been saying are ringing true. Such as:

The FAA is not going to be showing up anywhere looking for registration numbers

AMA and their chartered clubs are not required to enforce FAA registration.

AMA has been an influence in FAA decision making.

FAA does not want to seriously handicap LOS modelers.

maximusminimus 05-07-2019 01:19 PM


Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie (Post 12523553)
It would seem to me that between this thread and Appowner's last thread that things some of us have been saying are ringing true. Such as:

The FAA is not going to be showing up anywhere looking for registration numbers

AMA and their chartered clubs are not required to enforce FAA registration.

AMA has been an influence in FAA decision making.

FAA does not want to seriously handicap LOS modelers.

Those are some "comforting" words and I hope you're right. Some around here preach doom and gloom and that the end of the hobby is near. That the skies only have room for commercial interests and the rest of us don't belong at all...

Hydro Junkie 05-07-2019 03:03 PM


Originally Posted by maximusminimus (Post 12523606)
Those are some "comforting" words and I hope you're right. Some around here preach doom and gloom and that the end of the hobby is near. That the skies only have room for commercial interests and the rest of us don't belong at all...

Who's talking "Doom and Gloom"? Let's talk reality:
The FAA COULD show up anywhere to check for compliance at any time, REGARDLESS of what the AMA says will happen
The AMA IS NOT going to enforce anything that they don't want to, ESPECIALLY if it doesn't fall into the AMA's way of thinking
The AMA DOES NOT have any sway over anything the FAA says or does. If it did, the FAA wouldn't be requiring their registration numbers on model aircraft
The FAA DOES NOT really care what modelers do as long as they follow the rules

maximusminimus 05-07-2019 03:35 PM


Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie (Post 12523628)
Who's talking "Doom and Gloom"? Let's talk reality:
The FAA COULD show up anywhere to check for compliance at any time, REGARDLESS of what the AMA says will happen
The AMA IS NOT going to enforce anything that they don't want to, ESPECIALLY if it doesn't fall into the AMA's way of thinking
The AMA DOES NOT have any sway over anything the FAA says or does. If it did, the FAA wouldn't be requiring their registration numbers on model aircraft
The FAA DOES NOT really care what modelers do as long as they follow the rules

You're right..they could.. but as for the numbers on model aircraft, there has been some influence there...

init4fun 05-07-2019 04:25 PM


Originally Posted by maximusminimus (Post 12523629)
.. but as for the numbers on model aircraft, there has been some influence there...

;) Today , 5/7/2019 , If I fly without an AMA number I am totally within the FAA's present version of model aircraft law . If I fly without an FAA number , I am breaking the law and could possibly face legal charges .

:eek: Influence ? Really ? You wanna come in here talkin influence ??? All I see is BOVINE EXCREMENT unless you'd care to try to prove my above statement false ?

:p Influence .... Pfft ... If our AMA had any influence whatsoever our AMA number would have been acceptable as an FAA number too . BUT NOOOO , , We get to have TWO sets of numbers to satisfy the law (FAA) and the insurance (AMA) . Again , Pfft , pfft , and double pfft on your "Influence" that ain't lookin all that INFLUENTIAL from here ....

maximusminimus 05-07-2019 05:16 PM


Originally Posted by init4fun (Post 12523642)
;) Today , 5/7/2019 , If I fly without an AMA number I am totally within the FAA's present version of model aircraft law . If I fly without an FAA number , I am breaking the law and could possibly face legal charges .

:eek: Influence ? Really ? You wanna come in here talkin influence ??? All I see is BOVINE EXCREMENT unless you'd care to try to prove my above statement false ?

:p Influence .... Pfft ... If our AMA had any influence whatsoever our AMA number would have been acceptable as an FAA number too . BUT NOOOO , , We get to have TWO sets of numbers to satisfy the law (FAA) and the insurance (AMA) . Again , Pfft , pfft , and double pfft on your "Influence" that ain't lookin all that INFLUENTIAL from here ....


Is your FAA number plastered all over? Is it in big fat bold print? Or is just somewhere like under your stab?

speedracerntrixie 05-07-2019 06:48 PM

Ever wonder why some people simply canít manage a conversation without using all capitals, bold font and a condescending tone? Do they really think it adds to their credibility?

Hydro Junkie 05-07-2019 08:17 PM

I used caps and bolding to make sure my points of emphasis are clear to everyone, even those that don't want to read or believe them. If you took my post as condescending, then I can only assume that you have an issue with the substance of my post being more accurate than you want to admit or the fact that any response you could post would not be able to refute my post since my post did not attack or belittle anyone

speedracerntrixie 05-07-2019 09:08 PM

Have your assumptions in this matter gotten you anywhere? Do you even enjoy the hobby anymore? I understand that some people view the world as black and white, right and wrong but the real world is far from that. I suggest you return to enjoying the hobby.

Hydro Junkie 05-07-2019 11:03 PM

My only assumptions had to do with your post's comments about caps, bolds and being condescending. The rest was based on what is known to be possible, not an assumption or a guess.

Appowner 05-08-2019 05:53 AM


Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie (Post 12523553)
It would seem to me that between this thread and Appowner's last thread that things some of us have been saying are ringing true. Such as:




Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie (Post 12523553)
The FAA is not going to be showing up anywhere looking for registration numbers

The FAA doesn't PLAN to actively show up. Doesn't mean they won't.


Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie (Post 12523553)
AMA and their chartered clubs are not required to enforce FAA registration.

And they should be required to. But as good citizens.........................


Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie (Post 12523553)
AMA has been an influence in FAA decision making.

Says who? Not according to my Congress critters. Can you provide proof to the contrary?


Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie (Post 12523553)
FAA does not want to seriously handicap LOS modelers.

True, as long as flight safety isn't threatened. But as soon as something serious happens between a sUAS and a full size, the game will change.

Now, let's see if the Mods approve this for posting. My bet is they won't!

Appowner 05-08-2019 03:04 PM


Originally Posted by Appowner (Post 12523752)
The FAA doesn't PLAN to actively show up. Doesn't mean they won't.



And they should be required to. But as good citizens.........................



Says who? Not according to my Congress critters. Can you provide proof to the contrary?



True, as long as flight safety isn't threatened. But as soon as something serious happens between a sUAS and a full size, the game will change.

Now, let's see if the Mods approve this for posting. My bet is they won't!

Since I can't Edit my post, second line, should read "Should not".

Hydro Junkie 05-10-2019 08:01 AM


Originally Posted by Appowner (Post 12523752)
Now, let's see if the Mods approve this for posting. My bet is they won't!

Why wouldn't they let this go? it's not attacking anyone, inflaming a situation or violating the rules. I would probably be in more "hot water" with my last few posts than you are.

Glowgeek 05-10-2019 09:40 AM

I have no issue conforming the the FAA's requirements to register and diplay a visible number for identification. That said, the FAA didn't say how visible it needed to be so I made numbers from the same color film as my aircraft and applied them under the horz stab. They're there and visible, albeit nearly invisible.

Appowner 05-11-2019 02:30 AM


Originally Posted by Glowgeek (Post 12524182)
I have no issue conforming the the FAA's requirements to register and diplay a visible number for identification. That said, the FAA didn't say how visible it needed to be so I made numbers from the same color film as my aircraft and applied them under the horz stab. They're there and visible, albeit nearly invisible.

Actually the FAA has. They say the number must be "legible". Now just exactly what that may mean is open for discussion. But I wouldn't want to be the subject of such a discussion.

init4fun 05-11-2019 01:45 PM


Originally Posted by Appowner (Post 12524301)
Actually the FAA has. They say the number must be "legible". Now just exactly what that may mean is open for discussion. But I wouldn't want to be the subject of such a discussion.

;) I agree with Appowner , and we have discussed this before in some thread or another here ;

Doing things like putting your FAA number on the plane in a deliberate attempt to make it as illegible as possible while still remaining kinda sorta maybe just barely on the good side of legal is doing nothing but thumbing your nose at the FAA . Now , as an FAA licensed A&P mechanic (retired) I think I can speak for what I've seen of the FAA's tolerance for rebellious behavior , open rebellion is to be punished , eliminated , and made an example of so no others go getting any rebellious notions . Sure , the FAA is never gonna come to your field , untill something someday causes them to need to pay a visit , like maybe if the club hotshot flew a little too close to that passing Cessna last weekend , and they decide to check the club out . Sure hope your not at the field the day they come calling .

:eek: Remember , the FAA is just like any other of Uncle Sam's three letter agencies (IRS , FBI , CIA , NSA , etc.) , , , screw with them at your own peril !

init4fun 05-11-2019 01:49 PM

:D PS , yes indeed both my FAA number and AMA number are legibly displayed on any RC model I fly (I don't put the FAA number on control line models because it's not required) ....

Appowner 05-12-2019 04:14 AM


Originally Posted by init4fun (Post 12524393)
;) I agree with Appowner , and we have discussed this before in some thread or another here ;
.................................................. ......
Remember , the FAA is just like any other of Uncle Sam's three letter agencies (IRS , FBI , CIA , NSA , etc.) , , , screw with them at your own peril !

And having been a government contractor to three of those mentioned agencies, I can assure you, they won't see the humor in your efforts. They'll already be ticked off at having to go to some toy airport to check out some toy airplanes rather than do what they consider to be their real jobs.

Stickslammer 05-12-2019 09:48 AM

Yes, and just like a lot of government agencies, they tend to be spread a little thin. No sense being a bee in their bonnet.

speedracerntrixie 05-13-2019 11:02 AM

I can certainly appreciate that some of us have different opinions on this subject. If some guys are more comfortable putting their FAA numbers on their airplanes that is their choice and I support that. I simply do not agree with the reasoning behind the law so I choose to not comply without some resistance. That is my choice. As Appowner has said, an FAA rep could appear unannounced. There could also be an earthquake that destroys the entire west coast. The FAA does not have the manpower to do ramp checks the way they were in the past, they certainly do not have the manpower to go looking at toy airplanes. I am currently a member of 3 clubs and have flown at 5 different club fields so far this year. Not once have I been asked to apply my FAA number to any of my airplanes. If and when that happens I am prepared to do so on the spot in order to maintain my " good club member " status.

ira d 05-13-2019 11:46 AM

I was concerned at first about my FAA # being out in the open but I have seen a lot of FAA # on models recently and one of my clubs publishes the number in the membership
roster. It occurs to me that if a model was found someplace with my FAA # on it the gov is not supposed to take any action against me unless they have proof that the model
they found actually belongs to me or was flown their by me.

speedracerntrixie 05-13-2019 12:07 PM

Ira, it sounds to me like you have not had to experience our judicial system in this country. Once you are accused of a crime you are on the hook for hiring a lawyer and building your case. If a model Aircraft is found with your number on it and the interviewing officer is not buying your alibi you could be shelling out thousands for a defense lawyer. However being realistic I think the odds of that happening is very small. Probably about the same as having an FAA rep stopping by an AMA chartered club field.

ira d 05-13-2019 03:26 PM


Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie (Post 12524837)
Ira, it sounds to me like you have not had to experience our judicial system in this country. Once you are accused of a crime you are on the hook for hiring a lawyer and building your case. If a model Aircraft is found with your number on it and the interviewing officer is not buying your alibi you could be shelling out thousands for a defense lawyer. However being realistic I think the odds of that happening is very small. Probably about the same as having an FAA rep stopping by an AMA chartered club field.

I tend to agree that's why I used the term not supposed to bother us without proof.


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