Stickbuilder

NCIS, and others.

Your Documentation and how well you build to that documentation decides the outcome of most scale static events. There are vast differences between an ARF and a composite kit. Just because there is some scale detailing molded into the parts does not make it a contest winner. Take a look at the judging sheets sometime. At this year's event there was very little difference in the outline outcome of the first and second place models, or even the 3rd place model. This is how the outcome should be at a first flight event. You don't expect to see junk in the upper categories at a major event. These builders know how to build to their documentation.

Bill, Team Scale Outline Judge

homer6

[&o][&o][&o][:-][:-][:-][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@]

yard-dart

My Feedback: (35)

You know, I think you're right about the confusion part, to an extent anyway. I think the main point to this whole subject is exactly what was stated in the first thread......the name of the event "Warbirds Over The Pacific" sounds strong. Once you read about it and find that it was simply a warbird fun-fly, it sorta takes the wind out of your sails once you realize that a KMP ARF won "Best Military". Just the sound of the name of the event sounds "exciting". I expected to see lots of really nice scale/large scale birds, but it didn't happen.

On a side note, it was pretty cool that they were dedicating the event to the past, and present, men and women of our military.

cloudancer03

My Feedback: (22)

a warbird rally for me is much different than if it was a scale warbird rally event.meaning if it its based on scale then I would expect the guy building a kit or a brian taylor plan should be considered first before someguy shows up with a EMS arf.

pahtreek

My Feedback: (1)

I have seen some very impressive detail work on Arfs. Therefore I think they should be allowed to have a category to recognize the time and patience that goes in to the changing and detailing of an ARF.
But I do think ARF's have corrupted this hobby. So many people get bored after a couple years with it. Why wouldnt they? They buy a plane (and depending on the pocket book, it ranges from a $100 foamie or trainer to a $3,500 composite warbird). Then, if it isnt already painted, they get someone else to paint it, and take it to fly-ins to show it off. Deep down knowing that the only thing they are really showing off is how much airplane they can afford to buy. You might as well call it an expensive toy.

I think a very big component of keeping interest in this hobby is pride. Pride to yourself for having the patience to build a model that actually defies gravity and flies because of your hands. If it does not fly too well, you learn from it and do better the next time. In our culture of gimmie now, it is just another example of buy it, show it off, and get bored with it. Lastly, anyone who says they don't have the time to build it, really means they dont want to make the time to build it. I have 3 kids and although I only get down to the shop once or twice a week, I keep plugging away at it because I know I will love that plane once it is finished. I also love the rush of the first flight and not knowing if the wing is going to snap, or it's too heavy and will fly like a brick. My last two warbirds were very unique, I never one in the 11 years I had them that looked like them. They were mine.

I dont fault anyone for owning an ARF, it just bothers me when they act like they dont know why they are bored with the hobby after a year or two and quit. Not many men these days know the great feeling of satisfaction from actually building or fixing something (beyond our hobby). They either pay someone to do it, or buy it. I admit, the older I get, the more I value doing things myself.

I think what really hit home with me was the time I was at a company picnic, and some guy commented about how much he liked a cooker someone made. (it was a BBQ cooker). I said I had a welder and if he really wanted, we could build one. He immediately told me he was "white collar" and if he really wanted one, he would just buy one. That one conversation really changed me. I dont ever want to by "that guy". I didn't know how to do much at the time, but since then, either by asking, or youtube or whatever, I have learned to make the time and try to do as much myself as I can, and what I found it that I really like trying new projects. So whether it is painting around the house, fixing the fence or building a big bar in my basement. I like myself better for learning how to build it with my two hands, wits and patience.
JMHO

Experten109/40

My Feedback: (-1)

I think the fact that KMP won anything is mindboggling. its also funny how some try to put arf's, even modded ones
in the same class as kits. don't get me wrong.. not bashing the arf bashers as they do awesome work sometimes,
like LDM.

as I said before. its like turning a fiero into a ferrari buy buying the conversion parts. you can add all the ferrari parts,
but its still a GM builtfiero. as compared to one having all the genuine ferrari parts to build a genuine ferrari. if that
makes sense.

LDM

My Feedback: (15)

Thanks P40 and kudos to the builders as well , for me i would not enter a contest with an ARF or bashed arf unless it was for simple "warbird participation ect" personally i would not feel right about entering an ARF in a scale contest vs a home build even if it was allowed . I just done see the ethics in that , arf have a place and a great place in this hobby but being allowed to enter into a contest vs home build kits is just wrong .
Even on the original post , even in a fun fly , remember its all about the criteria .
If its a fun fly and the judgeing critera is "warbird " I still think its wrong that a arf gets to compete against a kit .
I bash many kits and some will be much more time intensive then kit building , but ...... I still hold true that building from the frame on up should have merit and points because its an added step .
You know the most difficult part of kit /scratch building vs arf basking /arf assembly ??? The most difficult part regardless of how passionate you are on your project is maintaining the enthusiasum thru the entire project that allows you to continue to build at an excellant level . At leaste that is my opinion .
P40K , great job on the Top Flight kit and I am looking forward to more updates

Experten109/40

My Feedback: (-1)

decided to take a week off... I'm sure you understand.I will update it though also, still waiting to here from Trapletshop about my parts
I ordered.

Boomerang1

Yep, I said that on page 1 of this thread.

In most 'real' scale competitions you have to be the builder of the model to enter.

A rule exists called the 'builder of the model' rule.
This defines how much of the actual construction the entrant has to actually do in order to qualify as the 'builder'.

What's a 'real' competition? In Australia the sport's governing body (the MAAA) in the US (the AMA) in the UK (the BMFAA) etc, etc, either administer the rules or have a SIG (special interest group) acting on their behalf (is it NASA in the US or the Scale Masters?)

On a world wide scale it's the FAI.

These people decide on what qualifies or does not qualify for the competitions THEY administrate, the 'real' competitions.

The scale rally in held at Alligator Creek model club in Missisippi? THEY administer that event so they can do what they damn well want, even let ARF's win.

Is it a 'real' competition? You decide. Some clubs run competitions fairly, at others the local hero always wins. TBC. - John.

Boomerang1

So why let ARF's enter anything at all? Like someone said, the times they are a changin'

Probably 30 years ago RC scale modelling (as we used to know it) was at it's peak, lots of entrants, no ARF's.
So where are all the guys that used to enter? Well, a lot of them can be found at the local cemetary so they won't
be turning up so numbers in scale contests are down.

The up & coming young scale guys are not up & they are not coming with kit built models. Remember when some
fool suggested all these new labour saving gadgets would result in heaps more leisure time? Seems we spend all
that extra either playing with the gadgets themselves or working 2 jobs to pay for all the new 'must haves'. Certainly
no time to build models. ARF's at least let scale newbies have a fly at some sort of scale contest.

You must have heard someone say 'the newbies will start with an ARF & then move 'up' (?) to building real scale models once they get interested.' Didn't happen either.

Most organisations now allow ARF's to fly in competitions (maybe or maybe not in a seperate class) just to keep the numbers up.

Not ideal, but better than no scale flying at all I suppose. - John.

daisy shoot

This argument could go on forever, but one fact will always remain....if you show up to a scale compition with your "Kung foo" arf, put together by the book with all the supplied crap, you are a tool!

vertical grimmace

My Feedback: (1)

Over the course of the summer we have around 5 Warbird events in Colorado. Warbirds over Pueblo, Warbirds over Colorado springs, Warbirds over Cherry Creek, Warbirds over Denver, and last but not least, the Warbirds over the Rockies. I attend or have attended most of these. Any awards handed out were just the opinions of some of the guys affiliated with the event. I have found that the aircraft that earned awards deserved them. It did not matter if they were an ARF or not. There are no rules to follow, so none can be broken.
I am also lucky enough to have a Scale masters qualifier held in Pueblo by the wonderful Sky Corral club. This is a totally different animal. Mainly because there is a lot less participation. I think that the ARF's are a very important part of the participation equation. There is an ARF class that does not get static judged but they get to fly and are judged on that. Getting people out and flying may help to get them to step up to the Expert classes.
I am by no means against ARFs. I would just like to re-iterate that how this thread was started, seems to me to be a false dillema. You cannot win, what was not a contest.

In the immortal words of David Letterman "this is an exhibition, not a competition. Please no wagering".

carprigger38

My Feedback: (6)

I just sat and read this entire post.This post and so many like it are all over in EVERY old school hobbiest forums,..planes,boats and modles you name it. The future of this and so many others a in jepordy by all the RTF,RTR,AMRTR,...and all the other acronyms,..They can go crash!

The craze of the bolt it togerther generation mekes me saddened.Theres so many 'true" hobbiest that get what Im trying to say. Granted I build WOOD gas boats from plans and MAKE all my own gear,the feelings the same when guys say "Look what I built",..no you didnt build that ,...you bolted it together!!

I started out in this hobby by building line flyers from kits and making most of my planes fron scratch,..Its amazing what you can make fly in a circle at 12 years old!

Hats off to ALL you true hobbiest for being so patient and calm with this thread.

Heres a few pics of my latest 60" wood Prowler built from plans amd scratch made gear,...

captainron

Well said Rich, and thanks for the plug!

KP.

My Feedback: (77)

If someone is quoting Dylan to justify ARF's how about this song of his.......

Union Sundown

Well, my shoes, they come from Singapore
My flashlight’s from Taiwan
My tablecloth’s from Malaysia
My belt buckle’s from the Amazon
You know, this shirt I wear comes from the Philippines
And the car I drive is a Chevrolet
It was put together down in Argentina
By a guy makin’ thirty cents a day

Well, it’s sundown on the union
And what’s made in the U.S.A.
Sure was a good idea
’Til greed got in the way

ARF's are good starter planes to get people in the hobby, getting them to build will keep them in the hobby. I have been in this hobby for 26 years and have owned 1 ARF (93" Troy Built Models Zero), I flew it once and sold it. It is not the same as getting the satisfaction from flying a built up plane.

If ARF's are kept in the beginers scale class's they may plant the seed to make a person go to the next step.

Just my own opinion...........Ken

Dylan would have been a builder if he was in the hobby.................

psb667

Ya know my sisters won first place for the nieghborhood christmas lights this year. Of course only six houses entered.
Take a plane you built to the show.

Chad Veich

My Feedback: (60)

As someone who has built everything from ARF's to scratch projects from my own plans I will tell you that I would have no issue with somebody showing up at a scale contest with a modified ARF. At least any of the ARF's currently on the market. I really don't see where it would take any less effort to bring an ESM airplane up to, say, Scale Masters standards than to build one from a kit, particularly a kit with molded components. I have reworked a number of ARFs to make them more scale and my experience has been that it is just as much work if not more so than starting from scratch. In fact I don't buy and rebuild ARFs because it is easier, I do it because these days it is cheaper! (Much cheaper quite often) That's just my .02 cents of course.

hellcat56

My Feedback: (21)

I couldnt agree with Chad V more
I have a stable full of scratch buit planes, been to numerous scale contest Scale masters
AMA nats and local contest
I have NO problem with and ARF entering a scale event, some of them when scaled out are much better than some I have seen build from plans
Scale Masters has an event decicated to ARFs
GREAT
what would you rather have a
A scale contest with 4 scratch built planes
or a scale contest with over 25 scratch built planes and ARFs
it increases interste and participation
and several of the ARF guys come back with built up planes
I include Yellow and other types are not ARFs I consider them kit built planes
YES I also have many ARFs also and fly some of them daily all are scale and all are WW2 planes

If your worried about an ARF beating out a build up scale plane THEN build the Built up Better
almost all the hard core scale contest I have been to the best plane usually win and they are NOT arfs.
Fly something just fly scale

Experten109/40

My Feedback: (-1)

I agree with Chad 100% too. I have no problem with arf's entering a scale event along with scratch/kit builds. I guess the only
problem I have is that a KMP won. one with exposed control horns, links, etc. that led me to believe that the mods (if any) that
the guy did was minimal at best. now, WOTP usually have some nice planes. noway that KMP should have placed first in
Military planes. just my 2 cents.

Chad Veich

My Feedback: (60)

I don't know anything about "Warbirds Over The Pacific" but if it is anything like the plethora of similarly named events around the country then it is not a contest in the same vein as Top Gun or the Scale Masters. It is a sport flying event centered around warbirds where they just happen to pass out trophies of some sort. We do something similar here in my neck of the woods twice a year with our One Eighth Air Force fly-in events. We hand out trophies for things like "Best Warbird" but there is no organized static or flight judging and the judges are often club members chosen at random with varying degrees of knowledge and experience. Under such conditions just about anything can get a trophy.

Firepower R/C

My Feedback: (10)

I am saddened to see the true R/C kits and kit building becoming a rarity. Kit or scratch building is the ultimate expression of our wonderful hobby, in my humble opinion. I guess it just hurts some of us (myself included) to see this particular expression of craftsmanship and indiviualism fall out of favor as much as it has. I see the construction phase as an important step in the overall enjoyment of the hobby. It really is amazining & fun to watch it come together in your hands, the anticipation building with every step... every little problem solved bringing satisfaction & confidence. It really is a more visceral experience. Sure, you can have a great time putting together ARFs and flying the crap out of them, but let me tell anyone who hasn't built a plane from sticks that the enjoyment you get from your first flight of an airplane you built yourself is miles above anything an ARF can give you! Can I get an Amen!

The first plane I had was a Nosen Mr. Mulligan... it was a magical experience to work on with my dad. However, the first plane I flew was an ARF. I had to train myself to learn how to fly, and ARFs were important in getting me there (because I was going through them like toilet paper). Currently all I have flying are ARFs sadly, but it keeps me going until I can jump into a kit or plans project. Also, I recently brought 2 of my brothers into the hobby, and ARFs were instrumental in bringing them in. Brother #1 wants to stay with ARFs, and brother #2 has almost finished his first kit, a HOB Bonanza, after having 6-8 ARFs. Brother #2 has only been at the hobby for 6 months! They are both hooked, and it is so much fun to watch their excitement. Haha, I sucked them in! I am pure evil!

So to ARF or not to ARF at scale events? That is the question. I say both kits and ARFs! The more, the merrier. And if you win a contest with an ARF, that is ok too, I guess. You must have some sort of talent if you win over scratch projects! Like others have said, it's about realism, and not how you achieved it, right?

Sorry for the rambling post- I'm sick and I think I took too much Cough Syrup[:'(]

Experten109/40

My Feedback: (-1)

thats my point, why reward somebody for bolting together an arf? that my friend takes minimal tallent. reminds me of "no child left behind" bs.
a fail is a fail no matter how one dresses it up. beit spectator voting or judges voting.

ram3500-RCU

My Feedback: (221)

This is REALLY the bottom line at any credited contest. At the events I have participated in, I have taken the time to talk with as many judges as I could to learn how to improve my work and documentation (including seminars). It really is all about how well you make you subject look like the planes and pictures. If your not sure about something, don't do it. Or at least, don't show it in pictures. That is what the judges are expected to go by. They do not have unlimited memories for all types of aircraft in existence.

I don't always agree with the judges, but I know I would rather build than judge.

Unless it is a very accurate ARF, and you can put together good documentation, against experienced an builder who know how to match plane to 3-views and pictures, the ARF would be at a disadvantage.

LDM

My Feedback: (15)

Well said Chad , and I think we have all seen his work to know that there is a differance between what Chad will do with an arf vs the terms "bolt it togeter".

Again look at where we take this thread "true moders" so if you choose to assemble(God forbid I say build lol ) if you choose to bash , tweek , research and reasseble are you not a true modeler ? Regardless of how far you take an arf , trust me if you simply "assemble" a 70" Plus wingspan model and have no modeling skills well "good luck with that ".
You better know how to determine MAC and test your published CG and how it compares to mac , use an incidence guage , determine if any of the hardware is usable , what needs to be glassed , how to fix major flaws in tail heavy arfs withour adding 3 pounds to the nose , determine how your retract houseing will hold up (most times it wont and will need to be seriously reinforced , measure the angle of attack on all your flying surfaces ect ect ect . Yes so while its not building a kit , its modeling and you better have the skill to recognize , and plan thru so many of the problem inherantly built into high end (yes those terms can go with my statement ) high end arfs .

Besides a personal choice of what i do with my time , let me tell you why I left kit building , 1)I never had the pleasure of assembling a lasor cut kit 2)Most of the kits i was building had to be bashed to standoff scale at best example Red Box P40 , I made it look like the Gold Edition because the Gold edition has not been invented yet 3)Pica 1/6 P40 , many changes , Dave Plat 1/6 scale Dora , might has well been a scrap box of wood , absolutly very little scale equity between the straigh sheet wood tail , no flaps ect , its a total bash to standoff scale . Then came the release of skyshark , shame on me for not buying as many as I could when they were reasonable , the kits look like puzzels and were great to assemble , so in the end I ended up moving to arf bashing because the remaining option are larger then the sizes i play in .

For contest , not beating a dead horse , I guess its up to the contest and modeler decision to agree or disagree with the rules and then make a choice

alanc

I am beginning to think that, when i holiday in Florida next year, and attend TOP GUN for the day, i had better not wander round in my YT International jacket on
you lot might lynch me