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ARFs Good?

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Old 10-23-2012, 01:44 AM
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Default ARFs Good?

Are ARFs bad or good? I have only had good experiences but from reading this thread http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11...12/key_/tm.htm it seems like Alot of people think that they are ruining the hobby. I don't aggree, They are only opening another door for those who prefer it easier/quicker or just don't want to build if they don't have to. Arfs are not stopping anyone from building kits. If the reason for not liking ARFs is to do with poor consrtuction then you haven't seen some of the poor quality kits out there.
What do you think? Why do you like ARFs? Have your experiences been good like mine?

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Old 10-23-2012, 10:00 AM
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ARFs are good, kits are good, airplanes are good, flying is good.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:19 PM
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Arfs are amazing my greatplanes escapade is an ARF and i got it done in less trhan a month....shorter if my dad didn't limit me on what i could and couldn't build. My U-Can-Do 3-D is also an ARF and it hasn't been a month and im almost done just wating on my tail wheel. Most arfs come with the pushrods, factory installed hinges, spinner, engine mount alreadyt installed, there are alot of time saving benefits in an arf. THe instructions are very detailed and have illistrated pictures too. In my opinion ARF's are the best for piolots with not alot of building experience...... -Mitch
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Old 10-24-2012, 06:32 AM
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Not everybody has the space or the time it take to dedicate to building a kit so assembling an ARF is a good alternative...Many ARF's are quite well built.. I think they are great...If you want to assemble one fine...If you dont , thats fine too...There is enough room in this hobby for all of us...I like Kits better , but then I have the time and the space to build them...I think I end up with a stronger plane...It might not be as pretty but it will last longer...Maybe...I have a few ARF's and there are a couple I really like after I did a few mods....
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Old 10-24-2012, 10:45 AM
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Default RE: ARFs Good?

ARF's can be good or bad, all depending on the quality of the ARF and what you are looking for. Mass produced ARF's provide little options and are basically cookie-cutter airplanes and qualitiy usually declines. As a producer of ARF's, each one is built as if I were building it for myself and provide the buyer with options such as colors and color patterns choices so that one airplane is not identical to another.

Jim
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Old 10-24-2012, 03:03 PM
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Have been a model airplane builder since the age of 8, now going on 70. Have built many a model plane in my life and put together quite a few ARF's. Latest one came from Aeroworks and was a Extra 300 Quick Build powered by a DLE-20. Model crashed and totaled out on its very first takeoff. Cause of crash was a total structural failure of the Horizontal and Vertical stabs. They separated totally and cleanly from the aircraft.
I advised Aeroworks of the structural failure, not looking for any compensation, just to advise them that this model has a problem. Never heard word one back from them. I know a structural failure when I see one after years of model building, served in the USAF as a maintenance tech and retired as an Airline Transport Pilot. Failure was due to lack of or poor gluing. Also, fuselage was very weakly built under the horizontal stab.

Now getting back to the ARF question. Yes, I beleive most ARF manufacturers put out a decent product. But I have also found that their are always areas for improvement. I have a tendency to reglue all areas that I find I can reach, thus providing extra strength and some peace of mind.

ARF's definitely have a place in the hobby. Especially for those that either do not have the building skills or the time to build a model. Lots of folks like to just get out and fly and the ARF's allow them to do so. Only gripe that I have after assembling quite a few ARF's is that I have decided, that is exactly what I am doing ......... only ASSEMBLING. I am not building !! But either building or assembling, I am still in and enjoying the hobby. Isn't that what matters most ?????
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Old 10-24-2012, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Granpooba

Have been a model airplane builder since the age of 8, now going on 70. Have built many a model plane in my life and put together quite a few ARF's. Latest one came from Aeroworks and was a Extra 300 Quick Build powered by a DLE-20. Model crashed and totaled out on its very first takeoff. Cause of crash was a total structural failure of the Horizontal and Vertical stabs. They separated totally and cleaning from the aircraft.
I advised Aeroworks of the structural failure, not looking for any compensation, just to advise them that this model has a problem. Never heard word one back from them. I know a structural failure when I see one after years of model building, served in the USAF as a maintenance tech and retired as an Airline Transport Pilot. Failure was due to lack of or poor gluing. Also, fuselage was very weakly built under the horizontal stab.

Now getting back to the ARF question. Yes, I beleive most ARF manufacturers put out a decent product. But I have also found that their are always areas for improvement. I have a tendency to reglue all areas that I find I can reach, thus providing extra strength and some peace of mind.

ARF's definitely have a place in the hobby. Especially for those that either do not have the building skills or the time to build a model. Lots of folks like to just get out and fly and the ARF's allow them to do so. Only gripe that I have after assembling quite a few ARF's is that I have decided, that is exactly what I am doing ......... only ASSEMBLING. I am not building !! But either building or assembling, I am still in and enjoying the hobby. Isn't that what matters most ?????
You should press AeroWorks to take care of the plane. Your track record of building planes certainly should show you know structural issues. I find the worst thing about ARFs now is simple not enough glue or poorly glued. I figure they are cutting corners, yet glue is not the place to do it.

I would prefer to pay extra for the hardware if they would just glue the wood properly. I have read that guys are now cutting the covering and gluing ARFs so they will hold up. I had one bad ARF that was very poorly glued. The glue was sub quality and did not hold the wood.

I have read a number of stories over the last year or so about AW quality dropping drastically. I certainly hope that is not the case, but when you see stories like yours and others it does not look good.
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Old 10-24-2012, 05:27 PM
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There are good ARFs and lousy ARFs
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Old 10-24-2012, 11:32 PM
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Default RE: ARFs Good?

I admire those who kit build but some of the terminology used in the construction manuals of kits is somewhat perplexing to new people. Trailing edge, aileron, servo bay, turtle deck, spar, longeron, etc, etc. Most kits don't even come with the hardware or covering to complete the model to an airworthy state. Some ARFs are good, Some ARFs are bad...... well the same can be said about kits. What I like the most about my ARFs(world models) is the weight, very light, my trainer model is .40 sized and has a flying weight of 1.6 kgs. most trainers in that size that are kit built are 2.5 to 3.5 kgs.
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:54 PM
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I on the other hand prefer the heaver planes...Up to a point....I find they penatrate the wind better and the extra weight usually means they are stronger....As I say this is only up to a point.....I have a Seagull SpaceWalker and it is very lightly built. It is what I would call a flimsy airaplane....It flys great but it will not take a hard landing with out significant damage...
















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Old 10-28-2012, 02:15 PM
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Default RE: ARFs Good?

I wish there was a 3d kits available that rivals extreme flight, PA, 3dhs or PAU. until then, its ARFs for me. aside from carden and a few other ginormous kits, that are real pricy, there's nothing. at least I don't know of any.
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Old 10-28-2012, 02:38 PM
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WindGap your dream is a reality here,  http://www.swanyshouse.com/index.aspx
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Old 10-28-2012, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
I on the other hand prefer the heaver planes...Up to a point....I find they penatrate the wind better and the extra weight usually means they are stronger....As I say this is only up to a point.....I have a Seagull SpaceWalker and it is very lightly built. It is what I would call a flimsy airaplane....It flys great but it will not take a hard landing with out significant damage...
Heavy means faster, to a point, They must go faster to gain the lift required to keep them aloft. this means that they are also likely to land and takeoff faster, (of coarse different factors such as wing area, flaps and aerofoil affect this) and when they land faster all of the "knocks" will be at greater speeds so more damage . it is all relative. As for your spacewalker, that sounds like a bad design. I have had a few heavy landings with my 40 sized 1.6 kg trainer that border on a crash that I could bend the wire undercarriage back and carry on flying. I love the flexy wire undercarriage! it takes SO much of the shock out . Alot of people call them flimsy though.
anyway that is just my opinion of light planes.
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Old 11-02-2012, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Granpooba


Only gripe that I have after assembling quite a few ARF's is that I have decided, that is exactly what I am doing ......... only ASSEMBLING. I am not building !! But either building or assembling, I am still in and enjoying the hobby. Isn't that what matters most ?????
For sure! Its funny when you read about all this building, then you see the guy's talking about a foamy that takes 30 mins to assemble. Blows my mind guys think assembling a arf is building. Your not building squat, your assembling a pre-built structure. I guess its just the microwave society we live in now. I have been stick building for 35 plus years, but I also love a quality arf. Nothing wrong with arf's, I just hate that for whatever reason, most of the newer "flyers" are missing out on what the true meaning of being a modeler is all about. When I hear about people complaining about having to adjust pushrods and clevis's on their new foamy, it just makes me sick. Are you kidding me?
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Old 11-03-2012, 02:08 AM
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"I guess its just the microwave society we live in now."

I am not seeing the microwave society as such a bad thing. If it were not for all of the wonderful things we have, technology for one, we could not be sharing in this thread about ARFs [8D]

I see your point with having a pre-built structure, yet there are many facets of any hobby that has something pre-done. I don't know anyone that does it all from the ground up. I do imagine there are a chosen few that may be the exception.

I look at it and realize there is an argument for almost every part. Given that, do you make your own design, draw your own plans, cut all your parts out, and then proceed to build? We could even go farther and ask if you raise your own trees and harvest the wood and prep it out?

I think stick building has a variety of definitions
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Old 11-03-2012, 06:27 PM
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It would be nice if all these ARF manufacturers would give us the option:

Put all the parts in a box, let us build it (glue it together) and cover it (the way we want it to look) and CUT the price in half.

Leave out the spinners, wheels, push rod, in other words, send us a box of wood and the instructions.

Frank
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Old 11-03-2012, 07:02 PM
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I would love to see more planes in a ARC version (Almost ready to Cover). That way you basically get a ARF but have the easy option of reinforcing (glueing/adding/moding) where you want plus you could cover it in your own scheme so you have something more unique then the other 5 or 6 identical versions at the latest flyin.


+1,000 fore more ARC's
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Old 11-04-2012, 06:12 AM
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Hi all, After losing two ARF's to inadequate glue in the wing, I cut off all the covering on the bottom and go over all the joints and beef up where necessary and recover.
I hope this will stop losing anymore ARF's to cheap or inadequate glue!

Thanks...Brian
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Old 11-04-2012, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
For sure! Its funny when you read about all this building, then you see the guy's talking about a foamy that takes 30 mins to assemble. Blows my mind guys think assembling a arf is building. Your not building squat, your assembling a pre-built structure. I guess its just the microwave society we live in now. I have been stick building for 35 plus years, but I also love a quality arf. Nothing wrong with arf's, I just hate that for whatever reason, most of the newer "flyers" are missing out on what the true meaning of being a modeler is all about. When I hear about people complaining about having to adjust pushrods and clevis's on their new foamy, it just makes me sick. Are you kidding me?
I agree with you 100% about ARF 'building' however I do have to say that with kit 'building' you are usually ASSEMBLING anyway, all the hard work of cutting, planning and material selection is done for you. all you do is glue the joints and cover. I don't consider it a bad thing that new Flyers don't experience building because they still have the ability to choose to assemble a kit. ARFs just open the door for more people to enter the hobby.
I love flying, building, fixing and unpacking a fancy new ARF
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:45 AM
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I would consider the ARFs to be much nicer if they would leave the gluing and covering up to me
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: J-3

Hi all, After losing two ARF's to inadequate glue in the wing, I cut off all the covering on the bottom and go over all the joints and beef up where necessary and recover.
I hope this will stop losing anymore ARF's to cheap or inadequate glue!

Thanks...Brian
Do you find that it varies with the manufacturer as to how much glue is applied or is it accross the board? I have been fortunate with my ARFs, but I do look for poor glue joints and mix up some thin epoxy and fix those. So far I have never had one fail or fall apart from lack of glue.

I have seen a serious degradation where glue is concerned. It is almost like they are using some type of glue that doesn't even stick well. I grabbed a small glue piece and just rolled the glue right off of a joint. It was not holding anything. I guess even China is trying to save coin and we suffer the results of that [X(]
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: FLYMAD

I admire those who kit build but some of the terminology used in the construction manuals of kits is somewhat perplexing to new people. Trailing edge, aileron, servo bay, turtle deck, spar, longeron, etc, etc. Most kits don't even come with the hardware or covering to complete the model to an airworthy state. Some ARFs are good, Some ARFs are bad...... well the same can be said about kits. What I like the most about my ARFs(world models) is the weight, very light, my trainer model is .40 sized and has a flying weight of 1.6 kgs. most trainers in that size that are kit built are 2.5 to 3.5 kgs.
If you have built some arf kits then you can build non-arf kits. Some are so terrible that a kit would be easier to build from the start. I have totally modified two arf Fokker Triplanes. See the 1/5 Fokker Drl thread here. Go to RCSCalebuilder.com for very detailed info on building and fixing these things. If I had known they would have been so much work I would have rather obtained a quality kit of same! The arf is appealing due to 'marketing' and not all are created equal. You pays your money and you takes your chances! Or... ask around before buying! Cheers!
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Old 11-15-2012, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: FLYMAD

I admire those who kit build but some of the terminology used in the construction manuals of kits is somewhat perplexing to new people. Trailing edge, aileron, servo bay, turtle deck, spar, longeron, etc, etc. Most kits don't even come with the hardware or covering to complete the model to an airworthy state. Some ARFs are good, Some ARFs are bad...... well the same can be said about kits. What I like the most about my ARFs(world models) is the weight, very light, my trainer model is .40 sized and has a flying weight of 1.6 kgs. most trainers in that size that are kit built are 2.5 to 3.5 kgs.
How many guys really don't know how to turn on a vacuum cleaner, washing machine, or crock pot and yet they never do? It's simply they choose not to! Read a few pages and look at the illustrations and honestly, who could be perplexed? http://manuals.hobbico.com/gpm/gpma0968-manual.pdf
Anyone can read this manual from Tower and get all the terminology down by the illustrations showing what a trailing edge is.
It's NOT hard unless they can't read or use Google. If they're still perplexed, Tower even gives you an R/C dictionary http://towerhobbies.com/intros/introdictionary.html and even more basic, a beginner section http://www.easyrc.com/airplanes/index.html If you're still stuck, post a question this forum and I bet you get a good answer (followed by 6+ pages of off topic comments.)

I usually toss the hardware that comes with kits and ARFs because it's junk metal.
Kits allow me to select the proper amount of glue to use in critical parts, and with an ARF, I ALWAYS add more glue, including World Models. It's one of the worst ARFs on the market in my opinion. How long does an ARF last you, a season, two seasons? Kits tend to last a lot longer as glue is not used as sparingly, and no quota is set for when it's completed and out the door like the ARF business.
Kits you can individualize and the "hobby" is just that. Flying is the secondary part for many builders.

It's a myth Kit building requires predetermined skills. We all started with little to none, you just pick it up as you go along. I wouldn't suggest a Dave Platt model for the first go, I still shudder to think I would want one now (I have my limits too), but there are basic kits, new and old, available on any marketplace dedicated to RC.
Today illustrated manuals as shown above make it MUCH easier for anyone to get into it, especially using the resources of this forum and tap the experience we never had before internet was invented, by the infamous Al Gore.
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Old 11-15-2012, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: FLYMAD
-ARFs just open the door for more people to enter the hobby
It's just a part of the hobby, building is at least 50% of the hobby one can enjoy.
Invest in some tools, buy and build a kit, get coached from the forum in the build thread and pick up a lot of seasoned advice, free. Then when something goes awry, you know how that plane is put together and have everything on hand to fix it. Now you opened the door to building. You might really enjoy it.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
How many guys really don't know how to turn on a vacuum cleaner, washing machine, or crock pot and yet they never do? It's simply they choose not to! Read a few pages and look at the illustrations and honestly, who could be perplexed? http://manuals.hobbico.com/gpm/gpma0968-manual.pdf
Anyone can read this manual from Tower and get all the terminology down by the illustrations showing what a trailing edge is.
It's NOT hard unless they can't read or use Google. If they're still perplexed, Tower even gives you an R/C dictionary http://towerhobbies.com/intros/introdictionary.html and even more basic, a beginner section http://www.easyrc.com/airplanes/index.html If you're still stuck, post a question this forum and I bet you get a good answer (followed by 6+ pages of off topic comments.)

I usually toss the hardware that comes with kits and ARFs because it's junk metal.
Kits allow me to select the proper amount of glue to use in critical parts, and with an ARF, I ALWAYS add more glue, including World Models. It's one of the worst ARFs on the market in my opinion. How long does an ARF last you, a season, two seasons? Kits tend to last a lot longer as glue is not used as sparingly, and no quota is set for when it's completed and out the door like the ARF business.
Kits you can individualize and the "hobby" is just that. Flying is the secondary part for many builders.

It's a myth Kit building requires predetermined skills. We all started with little to none, you just pick it up as you go along. I wouldn't suggest a Dave Platt model for the first go, I still shudder to think I would want one now (I have my limits too), but there are basic kits, new and old, available on any marketplace dedicated to RC.
Today illustrated manuals as shown above make it MUCH easier for anyone to get into it, especially using the resources of this forum and tap the experience we never had before internet was invented, by the infamous Al Gore.
Yes I think it is easier now than ever to build a kit with the help of the internet. I think it comes down to personal preference. I could not have build or covered my ARF trainer as well as the factory did when I bought it and it would not have flown well and due to absolutely no knowledge of the terminology I would have been frustrated and disheartened. Now I wouldn't have any problems. I think that the way people choose to do it is up to them and I would not discourage anyone from building a kit as their first plane, or buying a foamy, or buying an ARF. I am a believer that you should definitely do research before purchasing an ARF because there are (from what I read) some real shockers out there. But the same applies for kits and foamies. Just do your research and make sure that what you're buying is good.  I might be wrong here but I reckon that alot of you who hate ARFs bought them 10-15 years ago. They have come a long way since then! My ARFs have done many hours. I fly a couple hours 3-5 times a week at my place. Never worn out an ARF other than the covering. Again this is my experience.

 JUST DO YOUR RESEARCH AND YOU SHOULD BE FINE!

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