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  1. #76

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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    11/11 APC will give you the best speed on a 91FX. Longer take-off roll but better speed. I found this out after trying about $50.00 worth of props. The plane I use it on is a 8# propjet. Goodluck

    EDIT: Sounds wacky I know, just try it
    Will fly for coffee

  2. #77
    tIANci's Avatar
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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    11x11 sounds like something you wanna use on a nice long stroke engine like the old OS Hanno Pretner.
    Its nice to be important, but its more important to be nice ...
    Revver Brotherhood No. 232

  3. #78
    Moderator Greg Covey's Avatar
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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    Hi guys,

    Just poking my head in from the Electric Aircraft Universe so say that my electric conversion of the GP Little Toni is awesome!

    You can check out some photos here.
    Visit my Web Hangar at www.gregcovey.com/rc.htm

  4. #79

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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    I have a saito 100 in my Toni... flys awsome.. engine sounds so nice on a half throtle pass.. I can just about hover it at 1/2 to 3/4 . running a 14 x8 prop.. The 13/10 made it pretty quick. (sorry no speed data). But I will change the prop soon as the motor is just about broken in..
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  5. #80

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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    I maidened that same setup with a 13x10 this weekend. I'm surprised how much thrust that prop had. Speed was ok but not jaw dropping. I am getting a 12x12 as suggested elsewhere. FYI I run 30% nitre in my Saitos.
    Adrian Martinez

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  6. #81

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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    Can you please give me the part number for the spinner?


    ORIGINAL: BCherry

    I have a saito 100 in my Toni... flys awsome.. engine sounds so nice on a half throtle pass.. I can just about hover it at 1/2 to 3/4 . running a 14 x8 prop.. The 13/10 made it pretty quick. (sorry no speed data). But I will change the prop soon as the motor is just about broken in..
    If you cant stand behind our troops, Please stand in front of them
    AMA# 827136

  7. #82

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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    I am thinking of buying the Saito 100 for the plane and I was going to use the APC 13X8? It sounds like that you folks don't think that is a good match, yes? Let me know the best combination that you folks have seen. Thanks

  8. #83

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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    By the way, your plane looks great. One thing that I have done that you may want to try is to put some thin cowling around the holes that you cut into the cowl. The black outline really sets it off and give a very nice finished look. Just a thought.

  9. #84

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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    A 13x8 on a Saito 100 will over rev the engine. If you dont want stupid speed try a 14x8 or for more thrust and less speed try a 15x6. For speed with good thrust try a 13x10 and for all out speed try a 12x12.
    Adrian Martinez

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  10. #85
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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    I've read all the threads but I seek a bottom line answer. Since both the OS91 and Saito 100 fit nicely in the cowl which one produces the highest top end speed? I'd like a 2C for high RPM but the mufflers eat up a lot of cowl.
    Revvers Brotherhood Member #36

    It\'s better to break ground and fly into the wind, than break wind and fly into the ground

  11. #86

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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    The Saito 100 has more power and is quite a bit lighter. If speed is you goal get an APC 12x12 prop. Thats the proven speed prop for the Saito 100.
    Adrian Martinez

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  12. #87
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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    Did anybody mention what a neat solution Red has for a 2 stroke application? I don't think it can be done better! Good job!

  13. #88
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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    Thanks for the comments. I assume that the 12X12 does not exceed the 11K RPM limit. Red did an excellent job stuffing the 2C in. It did leave the cowl looking a bit like swiss cheese, however. If speed were the only factor I'd use a Jett 90L provided there was room left for an appropriate muffler to let it wind up, and still leave some cowl left. Jett has an in-cowl muffler. I don't know how much cowl it removes but I hope someone tries it.
    Revvers Brotherhood Member #36

    It\'s better to break ground and fly into the wind, than break wind and fly into the ground

  14. #89

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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    The 12x12 will spin ~10K on the ground on 30% Nitro so it will be perfectly safe...as long as you dont do any full throttle vertical dives!

    I looked at the Jett in cowl muffler. You would need a huge circular hole. The cowl on the Toni is TIGHT! I orderd a new cowl and an exaust extension for a 91FX to run another setup as I have a Magnum XL.91-A 2 stroke ready to into it.
    Adrian Martinez

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  15. #90

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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    I'm about to start a winter construction project on the Little Toni. I might modify it to a Minnow or a Ballerina, or even Tony Levier's all-blue version.

    I have a Saito .91 to put into it. Brand new. Does anyone have any prop suggestions for the Saito?

    LDJL, what did you mean about setting off the cowling with black? Could you give an example? (just being dense here)

    AdrianM, you're right about that Tru-Turn spinner (post #47, I think) being the perfect one for the plane, but what's been your experience with the weight of the Tru-Turn setup on the nose? It looks like about 4-1/2 oz up there. Did you need any tail weight to counter balance it?

    Bob
    Club Saito #61 Cub Brotherhood #107
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  16. #91

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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    This is why I chose the Super Tiger. t seems to perform well, but I still need to try several different props to find the best fit for this plane.

    SUPERTIGRE G90 ENGINE REVIEW
    by Mike Billinton




    A LIGHTWEIGHT TORQUE MACHINE

    Having successfully "stretched" their .61ci 2-stroke to a .75, SuperTigre has now boldly used the same crankcase for this .90-size middle-of-the-range sports engine the G90.

    What are the ramifications of "boring and stroking" a given engine size? Commercially, it makes sense: this is a "new" engine at minimal cost; it fits existing structures; and spares are readily available.

    TORQUE TALK

    Looking at torque figures is just one way of comparing engines. The G90's torque at lower rpm is good—so good that this apparently "normal sports engine" is number two in my "Comparative Torque" list of the top 12 engines I've tested. These illustrious engines are all of medium to large capacity; clearly, there's a scale effect at work. But I use two differently directed torque parameters (oz.-in./lb. and oz.-in./cc), so many engines don't make list—none of the top R/C car or marine engines, for example. The list highlights only reasonably light aircraft engines that have higher than average cylinder pressures (good bmep figures). It includes at least two International Class F3A engines (R/C aerobatics) and two ducted fans. The surprise is that it includes three sports engines, and a greater surprise is that the G90 fares so well in the comparison! Maybe there's a new F3A engine here?!

    Technically, the G90 appears to benefit more than usual from its narrow transfer passage and high gas transfer velocity (which usually follows from boring out a given crankcase); this favors low-rpm operation. Those who worry about airplane noise and the associated problem of flying-field retention might be pleased with the figures in the torque chart. The higher these figures are for any given engine, the more amenable it will be to stringent silencing measures without an undue loss of power.

    Engine testers are often criticized because they use horsepower figures instead of just torque—and these are open-exhaust figures anyway. I find torque the most interesting aspect of engine performance. This fundamental force is the effort imparted, for example, to the crankshaft of an internal-combustion engine by the piston's reciprocating motion. At any time, it's really the only thing the engine is producing. Horsepower merely includes the dimension of time: the closer together those individual torque impulses occur, the more horsepower the engine is making available.

    It's interesting to observe the way in which torque "unfolds" as rpm ranges from minimum to maximum, and is, quite naturally, a fascinating outcome of complete testing. The fact then: horsepower reporting itself is solely a mathematical summation of that varied torque release against time. Maybe it would help if the torque curve were placed more prominently at the top of the normal results graph and the rather more misleading hp curve made to skulk at the bottom for a change! (Any comments?)

    Admittedly, reporting open-exhaust figures is more contentious because of the wide range of available mufflers. And manufacturers might be inclined to supply reviewers with less restrictive mufflers to keep their engines' hp figures looking more favorable. Like their customers, they still see horsepower figures as more meaningful..

    Open-exhaust performance figures allow us to compare engines scientifically. Noise-restriction rules are for national and international bodies to agree on and enforce rather than for individual (maybe biased) engine testers to influence. I'm happy to test engines and report any significant moves in this area and other technical advances (even those that aren't noise friendly).

    The results of the FAI's , imposing sound-level regulations on the competition in the F3A class have been interesting. Using the appropriate tuned-pipe technique, the new Webra 120 operates at a very low 7,000rpm to meet the FAI requirements (test imminent). This type of organization-led development will also affect normal sports-model setups, but much more needs to be done to ensure a problem-free future.

    G90 MECHANICALS

    Crankcase. Over the years, SuperTigre engines have developed steadily but almost inconspicuously. Very sound engineering and design have led to high-quality engines that also represent very good value. Their crankcase structures, and surface finishes are sound and visually appealing, and the G90's one-piece design is very robust; in fact, it's one of the finest crankcase structures around.

    Bore and stroke. Bore and stroke are 15 percent and 13 percent greater (respectively) than those of the standard .61 engine; overall weight is only 0.25 ounce greater, and height has been increased by only 4mm.

    Crankshaft. The heat-treated nickel-chrome crankshaft is the other essential that allows power flow to continue unaffected by any distortions or wear.

    Crankpin and crankweb. These have been forged to ensure that the metal "grain" flows around the various angles without interruption-another example of quietly improving engineering without a fare. I'm not sure why SuperTigre doesn't boast about this improvement—time to go public maybe? SuperTigre is one of the rare manufacturers that opt to fine-finish-grind the crank-nose threads (as seen recently in the MDS 46).

    Piston/liner combination. This is a single-ring medium, high-silicon piston running with 0.002-inch clearance in a hardened-steel liner. The piston has been externally honed (this is well worth the time it takes because it's essential to true roundness), and the liner has been internally ground to its finished size.

    Porting. The liner has the standard Schnuerle transfer and boost ports with restricted port timings that take advantage of the expected lowish rpm. Externally, the very wide boost passage is of the usual SuperTigre style, yet internally, it's about only half as wide a strong case!

    Cylinder head. This is a one-piece unit with a wide squish band angled at 3 degrees, and the chamber is of the usual "bowler-hat" shape. The brass threaded glow-plug insert gives long-term reliability to glow-plug fitting.

    Compression ratio. This is set at a relatively gentle 7.6: I-a feamm that effectively retards ignition points (again indicating the expected low-rpm operation). An operational effect of this lowish ratio is that the glow plug acts colder than it would on other high-compression engines and would thus not easily sustain correct part-throttle running if the fuel setting was too rich. I had to keep the plug lit until the engine reached a leaner fuel setting.

    PERFORMANCE

    To help readers make their own comparisons, I ran the G90 with a wide range of props.

    The piston/liner combo led me to expect a lengthy running-in period, but SuperTigre's precise workmanship allowed a fairly easy transition to full-bore operation after approximately 30 minutes. I used a variety of the listed props—using the short-run technique—and gradually increased load and throttle openings.

    Test 1. Open exhaust; fuel—5 percent nitro, 10 percent castor, 10 percent ML70 synthetic oil, 1.5 percent ether, and the remainder methanol; glow plug—SuperTigre. Following the manufacturer's fuel recommendations, I obtained rpm ranging from a high 16,867 to a sensibly lowest feasible 4,400rpm. The lowish rpm bias in torque (maximizing at 7,300rpm) soon became apparent, though hp was still rising well at 13,000rpm showing that all design features narrow transfer passages, low port timings and relatively small-bore (8.0 mm) carburetor worked well together in the final analysis.

    Test 2. SuperTigre "Quiet" muffler, same fuel and plug as in Test 1. Subjectively (indoors), I found the effect of this "new-generation" backpressure muffler quite marked. Torque and hp were affected of course , but there was significant gain in fuel economy.

    Using the fuel-efficiency parameter of brake-specific fuel consumption in cubic centimeters used in 1 hour if developing lhp (bsfc), the G90's 755cc and hp are rarely achieved by 2-stroke engines run on methanol. The O.S. 35 BGX and, more recently, the Irvine 150 are equally creditable in this respect.

    The dip in torque production as rpm rose was probably caused by the use of this new muffler, but being mild has little practical effect on which rpm to use between the limits 6,000 to 12,000.

    Sound levels. Using the ST "Quiet" muffler, this engine certainly meets official requirements. But, as my figures show, this can only be done by restricting the rpm of this large 15cc engine down to 7,000.

    Test 3. Genesis 60/90 tuned pipe; same fuel and plug as previous tests. Provided by Weston Products and recommended by the U.K.'s SuperTigre distributor Mike Wilshere, this "quiet" tuned pipe was fitted uncut at a 500nim length from piston face to first maximum diameter using a standard SuperTigre manifold. I expected it to enhance lowish rpm, so I was not surprised to see that torque was much raised in the 8,000rpm area—way above the muffler levels and somewhat over open-exhaust levels. The quite wide and flexible rpm bandwidth was also shown to favor "sports" users.

    I didn't use a range of props wide enough to do the Genesis pipe full justice; of those used, only the 14xl4 APC and the 16x6 Airflow would be of use where low rpm are required.

    Test 4. Bolly EQ63 (square) tuned pipe; same fuel and plug. The volumes of both the Bolly and the Genesis pipes are nominally too small for a .90ci engine. This relationship has to take into account the expected rpm levels as well as the simple ratio of cylinder capacity to pipe volume. Clearly, at low rpm, the gas throughput is much reduced and so does not see a small volume pipe as much of a restriction.

    To obtain high-rpm data, I deliberately set the Bofly pipe at a shorter effective resonating length than the Genesis (640mm, piston face to internal baffle). A fair comparison of the two would only be possible if both were tested at a range of lengthsand perhaps on a variety of engines! But this would then be a pipe test instead of an engine test! Basically, both pipes should yield the same results. The differences between them shown on the graph result mostly from their different resonant lengths. With the Bolly pipe, the 16x6 Airflow, 15x7 -olly and, maybe, 12xl2 APC props look useful.

    TORQUE FOR SPORT

    On the test bench, it has always been apparent that relative engine performances with a variety of exhaust systems and rpm levels are better illustrated by the torque curves rather than the hp curves. Except for real out-and-out racing engines, torque curves allow us to quickly see where in the rpm band a given system should operate; but be careful to steer clear of the declining torque areas toward the left (at lower rpm) side of the graph. If you don't, you'll suffer a rapid decline in power levels whenever the engine load is increased.

    This concentration on the beneficial torque areas has a downside; the use of heavier props that increase the load on the engine obviously means higher inertia for the engine to cope with. It's better to increase rpm and decrease load either by using a lighter prop (maybe wooden) or increasing its pitch. That's why we're seeing more "strange" prop sizes: 14xl4, 12x10, etc.

    Remember that my prop rpm data are "static" ground-based figures. In flight, we'll see varied increases (if any) -up to around 15 percent. This will depend on precise placement of ground rpm on the particular section of torque curve.

    IDLING

    Using a 15x8 Graupner prop and the Quiet muffler (providing pressureassist to the fuel tank) led to an easily obtained 1,600rpm. The SuperTigre "Mag" twin-needle carb (now on all their engines) continues to give easily controllable operation with the usual quick pickup to full throttle.

    SUMMARY

    The G90 test session produced some surprisingly good figures. Generally, SuperTigre engines are giving great value to users in a quiet, undemonstrative way. We're besieged by engines from all over the globe, so this was an appropriate time to take another look at a product from one of the most longstanding model engine manufacturers.

    WEIGHTS AND DIMENSIONS

    Capacity: 0.900458ci (14.756cc)
    Bore: 1.083 in. (27.52mm)
    Stroke: 0.9775 in. (24.828mm)
    Stroke/bore Ratio: 0.9026:1
    Timing Periods:
    Exhaust 142 degrees
    Transfer 118 degrees
    Boost 113 degrees (Angled up 50 degrees)
    Front Induction opens 41 degrees ABDC
    closes 51 degrees ATDC
    total period 190 degrees
    blowdown 12 degrees
    Combustion Volume: 1.6cc
    Compression Ratios: Geometric—10.22:1
    Effective—7.59:1
    Exhaust-port Height: 0.279 in. (7.09mm)
    Cylinder-head Squish: 0.040 in. (1.016mm)
    Cylinder-head Squish Angle: 3 degrees
    Squish-band Width: 0.185 in. (4.7mm)
    Carburetor Bore: 0.348 in. (8.85mm)
    Crankshaft Diameter: 0.669 in. (17mm)
    Crankshaft Bore: 0.348 in. (8.85mm)
    Crankpin Diameter: 0.275 in. (7mm)
    Crankshaft Nose Thread: 0.310 in. X 24 TP{I (5/16 UNF)
    Wristpin Diameter: 0.275 in. (7mm)
    Connecting-rod Centers: 1.73 in. (44mm)
    Engine Height: 4.153 in. (105.5mm)
    Width: 2.397 in. (60.9mm)
    Length (backplate to prop driver): 3.69 in. (93.74mm)
    Width Between Bearers: 1.692 in. (43mm)
    Mounting-hole Dimensions: 1.968 x 0.787 x 0.167 in. (50x20x4.24mm)
    Exhaust-manifold Bolt Spacing: 1.85 in. (47mm)
    Frontal Area (bare): 7.23 sq.in.
    with muffler: 11.33 sq.in.
    with tuned pipe: 13 sq.in.
    Weight (bare): 20 oz. (566gm)
    with quiet muffler: 25.9 oz. (734gm)
    with Genesis 60x90 or Bolly EQ63: 28 oz. (794gm)
    (Tuned and Manifold)
    Crankshaft Weight: 3.15 oz. (90gm)
    Piston Weight: 0.50 oz. (14gm)


    PERFORMANCE

    Max. b.hp 2.35 @ 14,418rpm (open exhaust/5% nitro)
    2.34 @ 11,670rpm (Bolly pipe @ 480mm/5% nitro)
    2.03 @ 8,891rpm (Genesis pipe @ 510mm/5% nitro)
    1.97 @ 12,768rpm (SuperTigre Quiet Muffler/5% nitro)

    Max. Torque 231 @ 7,813rpm (Genesis pipe @ 510mm)
    229 @ 9,000rpm (Bolly pipe @ 480mm)
    220 @ 7,300rpm (open exhaust)
    186 @ 5,923rpm (SuperTigre quiet muffler)

    Reprinted with permission.
    December, 1996 Model Airplane News
    Editor: Gerry Yarrish
    Jim Hoover
    Field Marshal www.torcm.net

  17. #92
    mvigod's Avatar
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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    How is the landing gear on this plane? Strong? Has it held up for all you guys? Are there any areas that you feel might be in need of reinforcement like the firewall or is it all good to go out of the box? I love the look of this plane and need something fast in my hangar and will probably pick one of these up to put together over the winter. Sounds pretty good from what I read so far in this thread!

  18. #93
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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    I just received my YS 110FZ so construction has proceeded slowly. I am very impressed with the quality of the kit. I will be looking in the GP catalog for the next ship. The landing gear appears as stiff to me as any I have received. I'll update in a a couple of months after I wring it out.
    Revvers Brotherhood Member #36

    It\'s better to break ground and fly into the wind, than break wind and fly into the ground

  19. #94
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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    Actually I was curious if the landing gear and the construction where it is actually secured to the plane at the bottom of the fuselage was solid and strong. Not just the gear itself. Anyone have any issues with this or any other parts of the plane? So far in this thread everything sounds A+ other then the spinner which I understand may have already been addressed by GP in current production.

  20. #95
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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    thisoneused,


    If I'm not badly mistaken, this is an airplane forum, not an engine forum. Not anywhere in your post is there a plane mentioned. Seems like an awfully long post for people to read to actually get nothing out of it, anything that they were looking for anyway. Not trying to be an ass or anything, just doesn't seem appropriate here.

    Take that post to the engines forum and someone may find all of that mumbo jumbo useful, or maybe even interesting.

  21. #96

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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    Yard-Dart

    Well I am truly sorry to have wasted your time reading a very interesting artical about the engine on my "LITTLE TONI" IN the little toni section of the thread! And I have to say that if your trying not to sound like an ass I can only hope that no one has to hear you try to be an ass! Get the point?
    I'll leave this conversation at that and will not entertain any further conversations with you on the subject..
    Thank you for the opinion.
    Jim
    Jim Hoover
    Field Marshal www.torcm.net

  22. #97

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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    Gee Yard-Dart,

    I was going to post a review on the kitchen knife that I used to open the box that Tower packaged it in. Oh well........
    - Supplementary insipid innocuous inane vacuous proclamation

  23. #98

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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    Hmmm, it seems like spinners are part of airplanes (or are they part of engines?), so lemme try to answer this one...

    I just got a Little Toni a week ago from TH. The first thing that I looked at was the spinner. The one that I received with mine was of the Tru-turn "style" of construction (I'm sure that it's not a Tru Turn spinner), not the A-brace style they first sent out.

    By the way, the adapter nut that comes with the included spinner is threaded for a 5/16"-24 thread, such as for the recommended OS .61FX or the FS 91 Surpass. If you use a Saito (like I intend to do) you'll need a Tru-Turn adapter kit (I think I need a Tru-Turn 0717A adapter for my Saito) and a 2-1/2" 10-32 socket head cap screw (SHCS). I found them at McMaster-Carr, but so far, only in a black oxide finish, not in bright steel. You won't find these at Home Depot or Lowe's but they ARE available.

    The spinner weighs 4 oz, for what that's worth. I think that the Tru-Turn spinner recommended in post #47 is 3.4 oz. But, my Saito is lighter than either OS engine (above) so I can probably use the weight anyway.

    I just found some 10-32 SHCS at microfasteners.com as p/n SCA1140. $4.95 for a pkg of 10 (plus shipping, I assume). The screws are alloy steel, but I don't know if they have a 'bright' finish, or the black oxide. The website doesn't say.

    I am also thinking that I may have to grind down the OD of the SHCS head just a mite. The 10-32 SHCS is supposed to have a 5/16" diameter head, by spec. The 'socket' on the spinner, that the head of the SHCS fits into seems to be just under that diameter, so a little shaving of the screw head's OD may be in order - perhaps just a few thousands of an inch. It looks close to me, but do-able.

    Was anyone else able to work around this situation a little easier?

    Just my $.02

    Bob
    Club Saito #61 Cub Brotherhood #107
    Spitfire Brotherhood #143
    Kadet Brotherhood #3

  24. #99

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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    Bob, sure did, If you want good advice, toss that stock spinner into the nearest ''Sh-- can''. It's impossible to balance. A Tru-Turn is the only real alternative. I know, I know, more expense. Unless your the real lucky kind of person, stock spinner wont work. MM

  25. #100

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    RE: "New" Lil Toni by Great Planes

    Hi MM,
    I'd heard that the A-Brace spinner was difficult to balance, but this one seemed pretty good. Are you referring to the old A-brace style, or the new style?

    Thanks,

    Bob
    Club Saito #61 Cub Brotherhood #107
    Spitfire Brotherhood #143
    Kadet Brotherhood #3


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