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AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

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AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Old 11-27-2007, 05:46 PM
  #251  
n27sr
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Default RE: AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

I crashed my H9 Pulse a few weeks ago.. This was by far the BEST arf EVER. After searching for another, I found one 3 days ago.. I know they are on back order, and have been for a few months. So, what a huge difference in the quality of the two kits. This new one has a very thin cowl and wheel pants, neither of which match the color of the plane. The covering was very loose and will not shrink without pulling the seams. I have not flown it as of today, but if I crash it tomorrow I will not be as heart broken as I was with the first one. Oh well, I guess they are like girl friends....if you know what I mean.
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Old 11-27-2007, 06:19 PM
  #252  
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Default RE: AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

hey D L R thunder tiger cub and the p51 mustang are good planes the best motor is the OS 25 fx and 9x5 prop only thing is move the landing gear forward will nose over alot if you do not . very easy on fuel , on the light side 3.5 pounds if i remember correctly

you can fly slow or fast

do they still make them ???

good luck falcon
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Old 11-27-2007, 08:59 PM
  #253  
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ORIGINAL: RU4JESUS2 FALCONGTS

hey D L R thunder tiger cub and the p51 mustang are good planes the best motor is the OS 25 fx and 9x5 prop only thing is move the landing gear forward will nose over alot if you do not . very easy on fuel , on the light side 3.5 pounds if i remember correctly

you can fly slow or fast

do they still make them ???

good luck falcon
Thanks for the info Falcon, about the gear, that is one area that seems problamatic, doesn't seem it will flex real well, more like a hard landing and it will be bent, maybe I'll get a better one I had considered moving it up to the LE of the wing and will do it now for sure. Right or wrong, I'm putting a TT pro36 on it for power, more than enough I'm sure, but I use both hands when I fly and one of them holds the throttle so I'm not worried about a little extra power. Maybe it will hover, ha ha.
Yes, apparently they are still making them, it took a month for my LHS to get it, but the plane and engine both showed up finally. Nice to hear about the P51 as well, maybe next winter!!
Dan
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Old 11-28-2007, 06:47 PM
  #254  
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Default RE: AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

DAN all as I did is move the landing gear forward an add a block of ply inside ,I had toar the landing gear off in a fun fly at the club []operator error
the p51 I added stripes easy to see that way ,rubber bands pick up at ollies or big lots you will need oversize black in color have 2 years on the one set ,still strong .
with the p51 high rates its a hot dog !! could have sold alot of these at the club
let me know if any problems
thanks falcon
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Old 12-01-2007, 06:44 AM
  #255  
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ORIGINAL: Robotech

Oh, Lord. Now you went and did it! It's not a "kit" and you assemble it not build it. What are you trying to do, get us in trouble with the anti-ARF bunch? Geez man.
Don't worry about it too much. The way the hobby is going, pretty soon those of you who can put today's ARF together, will be considered the Master Builders.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
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Old 12-02-2007, 04:22 AM
  #256  
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Default RE: AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well boys, as a new kid on the block I can tell you which planes worked very well for me as a newby. The Hangar 9 Alpha 60 with a Thunder Tiger .61 Pro engine helped me learn to fly. Many hard landings and rebending the front landing gear and she just keeps on ticking! I have tought two of my son's how to fly with it and graduated to the Great planes big stick 40 & 60. Also have a Hangar 9 P-47 (60 size) with Thunder Tiger .91 4 stroke and it has taken a few rough landings also and no trouble. Only trouble I had with the P-47 was forgetting to use lock tight on the engine mounts to the fire wall and the motor almost came off during takeoff[&o] but slowed before it ditched into soft earth. I also have the Phonix Sonic which I have crashed twice, put a new wing on, hit a power line, put another new wing on and it still keeps flying! I really like the Great Planes big stick 60 with Thunder Tiger .61 pro also (I do like Thunder Tiger Pro engines) because of the strong landing gear and it does stunts that make your head spin. So I say thumbs up for Hangar 9, Great Planes and Phonix. I was thinking of the Vmar PC9 but after reading this forum, I have second thoughts now. I do favor the tricycle gear for rough ground as they don't tend to tip over so easy on take off. My landing field is hard dirt and grass (no RC club within 60 miles).

Anyone have some ideas for me for a tricycle gear War bird plane for a .52 size 4 stroke engine besides the Vamr brand?
Just an old fart learning how to fly
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Old 12-02-2007, 05:57 PM
  #257  
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Default RE: AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't have any real bad experiences with ARF's, unless you call a wing coming off in flight bad.

There are a number of guys/organizations in Australia importing direct from factories in China. Many of these models look EXACTLY the same as established distributors' products, particularly Nitro Planes, Kyosho and Hangar 9. They could well be the same factories.

The disadvantage of buying these clones is that there seems to be little quality control exercised by the direct importers where the established importers/distributors seem to insist on a minimum standard, but after reading some of these posts maybe that's not the case.

A few months ago I bought a CAP 232 from one of these guys who import direct and sell mostly via ebay. It was beautifully finished, and what I could see inside seemed to be an OK build. I did my usual routine with an ARF, anybody's ARF, painted epoxy around the engine bulkhead, and any other joints I could get to, even if they seemed like they were OK.

I bolted Magnum .91 FS up front and went to the field. I couldn't have found a sweeter flying aircraft, almost no trim required, and after a couple of days out, I started to give it a workout in aerobatics, nothing radical at this early stage, e.g., no lomcevaks, just loops, rolls, stall turns, etc.

It was falling vertically after a stall turn, no power on it, and a wing came off, trashing the aircraft, engine, and a servo on impact.

I pulled the skin off the wing, and found that the ply wing joiner went into nothing on one side of the wing, i.e., the joiner box had been installed all on one side of the wing, with nothing to accept the joiner on the other. So the only thing holding the wing halves together was the epoxy between the inner wing ends, and a 1/4" dowel toward the trailing edge. The balsa webs between upper and lower rails of the spar had the grain running horizontally.

I took the wreckage back to the seller and showed him the problem for which he accepted responsibility, and exchanged the pile of rubble for another ARF, and Extra 300S, and an ASP .91 FS which he also imports. When I got it to my workshop I took the monokote off the lower surface of the wing and looked inside; same horizontal grain on the webs, and webs extending only a third of the span, and the aluminium wing joiner only just making it into the second rib. I did quite a lot of remedial work bringing it up to scratch, including extending the aluminium tube spar to about 2/3 of the span each side.

I've had a few days out with the aircraft, and it flys every bit as good as the CAP. I'm about to start giving it a real workout, and I know the wing is strong enough, but the point I make is that a buyer shouldn't have to virtually rebuild an ARF; that's the point of buying ARF's, isn't it?

A friend boiught a bigger CAP, about 80" span, from him a little after I did, had an almost identical experience a few weeks after me. Level flight, about 50% power, and a wing just came off. The build was every bit as shabby when he stripped the covering and took a close look.

This young enterpreneur, who migrated from China with his parents as a kid, tells me that a lot of factories have sprung up as a result of a worker in an established factory leaving and setting up on his own. He employs farmers and other seasonal workers in their off season. There's nothing wrong with that (Boeings are built largely by unskilled workers) except that the workers receive no training, so don't have much idea of what they're doing, so the quality is not there.

Sorry this is a little long winded, and i can't give an actual model I suggest you don't buy, but it may give an idea of why some ARF's aren't up to scratch.

Anybody can import these ARF's. If you do a google search and find the Made in China, or Alibaba, sites, you'll have ARF manufacturers coming out your ears; prices are good, e.g., if you bought 250-300 models, about a container load, you'd land them in the US for not much over US$60 each, the same models that sell through Tower and the LHS for $150+, so there's good money to be made. The problem you encounter is that unless you go there and specify a standard, you'll end up with a lot of junk.

But then Aibaba and Made in China also have QC experts who will take care of that for you for a fee.



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Old 12-09-2007, 10:09 PM
  #258  
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Default RE: AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay, I have to vent my frustration with Lanier. I purchased one of their 87" Extra's and put a DL50 in it. It came out right at the prescribed 16.5 pounds and flies great. I liked it so much, I sold my very light KMP Yak airframe, taking all the gear out of it and purchased a Lanier Yak, advertized to weigh 16.5 to 17.5 pounds. That would be around 25 to 28 ounces per square foot, like my Extra. Well I just finished the plane with a Fuji 64, Mejzlik 22X10 3 blade prop, True turn spinned and the recommended servos and it came out to a whopping 21.5 pounds!!!! &$(%@!$$$!!!! So that comes out to around 34 ounces per square foot. I am almost afraid to fly this heavy beast, as heavy planes tend to snap out and fly like crap. I am not sure about how well the Fuji 64 will pull a plane this heavy. The engine is taching about 5850 with this prop on the ground. As much as I hate to, I may have to remove that pretty 3 Blade prop and spinner and put a light wood prop and plastic spinner on it. Not much else I can do, as I am running single receiver, Fromeco battery and switch. The ignition battery is a AAA and only weighs 3.5 ounces with the switch, so not much else can be done. I really need to find a way to loose almost 3 pounds to make this lead sled a keeper. I moved the battery pack towards the tail to balance the plane and no extra weight has been added for balancing!!!

It is a very pretty airplane, but just made so darned heavy, compared to the extra. If anyone else is considering one of these, try to buy from a LHS, rather than Tower, so you can weigh the boxed airframe, to see what you are really getting. I guess I should have kept the old KMP, fixed the cowl and recovered it, it weighed an honest 16.5 pounds with the same equipment, 8611 and 5955 servos all weighing about 2.25 ounces each.

Also purchased six engine kill units from a gent here on RCU and two of them would not work correctly on the 4.8 volt system the Fuji requires. I am using one successfully on a 6V system on a XY 26cc engine on a Goldberg Wild Stick with no ill effects. I will test the two, aparent faulty units on other 6 volt systems, to see if voltage is the issue. The problem was that the engine ran very rough and the led light flickered all the time, indicating intermittent power to the ignition. As soon as I removed the electronic kill system, every thing was great.

My other ARF complaints were with a Goldberg Ultimate, that had some design flaws and poor quality wood. I posted those on the Ultimate thread, if you want more info. The plane flies awesome with the 3W75US on it. I am using a choke servo on this one and don't intend on testing the new electronic kill units on it, even though it is a 6 volt ignition.

All of my great planes ARFs are keepers, well built, light and reliable. I also really like the quality and strength of my Goldberg Wild Stick 120. I am still in the trim flying and tweeking stages, using crow, a new gas engine and playing with props to find the optimum. Once I get that one all figured out, I will post more on it, but it is definitely fun, light and a real keeper.

Thanks for a great thread, it gave me a good venting on my latest waste of money!!!

Happy Holidays to all,
Mike Boyd
AMA 7197
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Old 12-10-2007, 09:40 PM
  #259  
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Default RE: AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi,

Anyone familiar with Cedarhobbies big Sweet and Low Stick? They are selling them out at $220 + shipping. 96" two piece wing.

Phil
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Old 12-11-2007, 03:37 PM
  #260  
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Update on my Lanier Yak 54. I checked at Tower today and they are discontinued, no wonder they were priced so far down! I removed the 3 Blade prop and TT spiner and went to a Mens 22X10 wood prop and GP 3 1/4 inch aluminum backed plastic spinner. I also removed the larger Lipo battery and installed a two cell lighter Lipo. I installed the original wheels and removed the GP, larger, stonger units and am looking for lighter wheels. Hated to remove the wheel pants, but just more weight with no functional advantage. This much got the overall weight down to a little less than 20 pounds. I found a 1 3/4 X 36" CF wing tube from TBM for less than $60 which will take out another 6 ounces.

I am looking for a CF Landing gear that will fit the Lanier. It has a swept forward landing gear, that sweeps forward nearly 4", so I can't use a similar dimensional unit with the top width at 8.5", wheel span of 19.5", a height of 10.5" and mounting width of 2 1.4". This gear is one of those split units that slides through slots in the bottom, rather than just to good ole reliable bolt on the bottom, like everyone elses.

If I can't find a CF gear, then I guess I will start removing covering and start removing excessive planking. The darned fuselage weighs nearly 14 pounds with the engine, gear, hatch and cowl. This is nearly 3 pound more than my old KMP Yak with the same stuff in it.

I thought about moving the engine back a little, since I am at the recommend distance from the firewall to the prop flange and have about 1.5" of clearance, then I could start removing excess wood planking on the turtle decks, underside of the fuselange and other places that don't really offer structural rigidity.

If anyone has any suggestions, let me hear them. My goal is to get below 19 pounds, which is very optimistic, considering I started with a flying weight of 21.5 pounds.

Appreciate everyones inputs, thanks!!
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Old 12-13-2007, 06:59 PM
  #261  
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Default RE: AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

Does anyone have one of these? 50cc class Pitts biplane with 71" wingspan. Similar to the CERMARK Pitts in blue but in a bigger scale. They are being offered on Ebay but the seller will not give out any info or references of individuals that have or have flown one. Nice looking plane but........death comes in many disguises!
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Old 12-13-2007, 07:19 PM
  #262  
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Default RE: AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

be very wary of most of the arfs being sold on ebay. unless it is a name brand or one your familiar with. also, check out some of the outrages shiping charges.
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:21 PM
  #263  
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Default RE: AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

$199.99 plus $59.00 shipping. Too cheap to be a superior quality ARF but I have not put together an ARF yet that was to my liking. Would be a good starting point...maybe. I am fortunate enough to have started in the hobby when building from scratch or a kit was the norm. Very helpful when buying a piece of crap ARF!!! I have built a lot of ARF "kits" too!!! LMAO! I'm looking at a WILDHARE Sukhoi SU-26 but it is pricey and you have to buy the hardware package separately and that does not include the spinner or the $70.00 shipping. I built a GP 1/3rd Pitts that wasn't too bad. A Goldberg 77" YAK 54 that was /is holding up nicely. Most seem to have weak firewalls although I must say that both these ARFs are sufficient in the undercarriage area. Hardware on both was acceptable but I hate buying an ARF with that junk Chinese hardware. The spinner included with the GP 1/3rd Pitts was junk. Never use a cast aluminum spinner. Take it out and throw it in the trash. Had a Dave Patrick Ultimate that was absolutely great and flew the same. Cermark Pitts is also a great ARF and super flyer with a Saito 150/180. The Cermark Pitts required a little attention with the aileron hinges but no biggie. I have yet to buy an ARF that I used the supplied engine mount. I always end up replacing the supplied wheels with H9 wheels. I really like the H9 wheels. I also think most ARF's are supplied with one size too small wheel axles. One last thing....where do these ARF manufacturers come up with such cheap tailwheel assemblies? Speedy
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Old 12-23-2007, 03:04 PM
  #264  
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Default RE: AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trainers need to be good handling planes to keep the student's workload down as much as possible. Training aircraft which have a lot of adverse yaw, roll couple, and pitch couple are difficult for anyone to deal with let alone a student. The student cannot tell whether the plane's bad behavior is his fault or the planes fault. In other words, if a plane handles like a well tuned aerobatic type, with very little cross coupling in the control systems, it is easier for the student to figure what he/she is doing right or wrong.
That being said let me say that the single worst handling trainer I have ever seen is the Perfect Trainer by Great Planes. It has so many ground and aerial issues I do not care to list them here. The next worst handling plane I have seen which is sold as a trainer is the Nextar. All the add -on's to solve problems do not help.
In both cases it looks like the designers patched a bad handling plane every way they could without solving the basic problem of poor initial design.
The good part of the experience is that it has inspired me to think outside the box in designing my own trainers to get a far more positive result. How about a plane that uses a rectangular wing with fully symmetrical airfoil and no dihedral? My view of what constitutes a good trainer design is far from the conventional way of doing things.
But then its was the really poor flight characteristic of the many trainers I have flown that has encouraged me to look for something better. Art Cloutier
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Old 12-24-2007, 10:54 AM
  #265  
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Default RE: AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

The trainer you just described sounds alot like the Bridi RCM Trainer 40 or .60 Nothing conventional about them, but they flew great and would slow down just about to a walk for landing.
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Old 12-27-2007, 10:50 AM
  #266  
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Default RE: AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

That being said let me say that the single worst handling trainer I have ever seen is the Perfect Trainer by Great Planes. It has so many ground and aerial issues I do not care to list them here.



I wish you would list the issues. My PT60 flies just fine for a trainer.
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Old 12-27-2007, 11:21 AM
  #267  
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Default RE: AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you buy a load of those ARF's from China be ready to do your own boxing and packing and adding hardware too. Many of them come in plastic bags only. I get 3 to 4 e-mail a week here at the store. You pay inadvance without seeing the product and no way to resolve issues in quality. Dennis
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Old 01-02-2008, 01:23 PM
  #268  
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Default RE: AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

I haven't read the entire thread but will throw in my own experiences for what someone might find worthwhile. I have owned a Kyosho PT-19, Nitro .40 Super Chipmunk, Kangke Monocoupe, and a Model Tech Dragon Lady. By far the worst customer support is Nitro. Hobby People and Kangke both have excellent customer support and helped me a great deal. I have no experienc with Kyosho but I loved the plane even though it was an early ARF and it was expensive. Quality was excellent in the Kangke Monocoupe and even if it is not true scale it draws many favorable looks. The Dragon Lady was covered in Monokote and I did have a few issues with the way it was applied but Hobby People sent new parts immediately and unquestioned. It flys beautiful on a TT Pro .61. The nitro Chippy looked great and flew well, just not from my club's rough grass. The instructions suck and I had a real problem getting the cowl to fit, weak and poorly designed tail wheel, and customer service. You get what you pay for with them which is, a low price and quality that leaves a lot to be desired. Buyer beware! All these models may be seen in my gallery here at RCU.
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:34 PM
  #269  
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Default RE: AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have read the entire thread and agree that the TT 40 was a really bad ARF, and gave it away without even building it as I thought it was a really pile of crap. The plastic turtle deck was too thin but that was years ago and I haven't bought a bad ARF since. The guy I gave it to, threw it out. Fortunately I now belong to a couple clubs and I hear the bad stuff discussed. I only comment on what I fly.

If you need a really good ARF, I have two I heartily recommend.

Hanger 9 Twist, $99 USD. I fly mine with An O.S.70 4c and an APC 13-6 prop.

Tower Hobbies U-Can-Do .46. $149 USD. I fly mine with an O.S. .91 4c pumper and an APC 14-6 prop.
Excellent plane on Goldberg floats, also. On snow, floats are better than skiis.

If anyone wants further details, just ask.
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:10 PM
  #270  
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Default RE: AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

Richmodels:

1) no support, I bought a Quickie, got two left hand wheel pants they never respond nor got me a RH wheel pant.

2)Quickie again. CG way off plane would not flair busted the landing gear, note the gear are at the tips of the canard.

3) their Long EZ canrds flutter! I saw this at the club...traded my ARF away!
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:25 PM
  #271  
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Default RE: AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

NITRO PLANES !!!!!!!!!

Worst in quailty of hardware I have ever seen.

EXAMPLE:
Kangaroo: Fuel tank leaked from day 1.
Kangaroo: Clevis broke on 1st opening!
Kangaroo: Claimed retract ready, OK who's retracts? they did not have any to sell!
I adapted a set of spring airs "flushmount" see build thread in ARF section.
Kangaroo: 6mm wood dowels measure 5.0 mm or less, these were to align the wing thru the fin panel and into the Horizontal stab. I had to buy 1/4" hardwood dowel and sand it down to 6MM

Manuals have many errors in them.

EXAMPLE:
Cessna 337-25:
distance from firewall to engine prop drive plate wrong for front engine 6mm off
and really wrong for the rear engine 15.5 mm off
alll measurements made and check with chineeze made digital calipers.

Servo pockets:
Cessna 337 were 1mm small in length and width! Get out your knives!

I really doubt that NP has taken one of the production ARFs before being released and actually built it.

I would guess that they have a QC dept...

sign over door reads KWALLITY KUNTROL...

Door leads out of the back of the factory to the cess pool.

So If you buy one of thew "pretty planes" throw out the hardware and replace it with known quality materials.
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:45 PM
  #272  
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Default RE: AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!


You're much braver than I am!!!

I have a bunch of their planes and I usually replace the hardware as much as possible.

Re: Clevis

Yup, don't use the provided ones particularly on the Evergreen and Fly-model planes. They will shatter easily.

Re: Retracts

Anyone's you can fit in.


Re: Servo pockets.

For an arf, having to remove 1mm is pretty good.
I'll take that any day over what I've had to do to some big name ARFs.

Re: Manuals

Manuals, Manuals? We don't need no manuals?

Re: Distance

ONLY 6MM????
You're doing well!!...
My NP Fly-models Extra 330's .60 instructions had it 20mm off which I discovered AFTER fitting and cutting the cowl... ouch...
Nice big honking hole in the cowl now.



The newer CMP kits seem to do a much better job with all of this, but you are still advised to be prepared to replace hardware whenever you see anything not to your liking.

So yeah, the on some of the smaller planes the included hardware is not good.
The larger planes do a bit better, though I've had a few small planes with passible hardware ( such as the small electric Ultimate ).





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Old 01-04-2008, 04:58 PM
  #273  
Crazy4Flight
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Default RE: AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great planes and Horizons Hangar 9 AFRs are ok

their cheapie line: Phoenix and Seagull seem to have the same problems as the "no-brand" china imports.

Go here and you can buy what Richmodels NitroPlanes Evergrreen? have tot sell just buy enought and they put your brand name on them http://www.aeroairplane.com/product.htm


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Old 09-18-2008, 10:45 PM
  #274  
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Default RE: AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi steer clear of seagull altogether, there boomerang trainer has no spars or leading edges worth talking about, and what little leading edge there is is notched for the ribs. I have seen several now that folded the wings up in str8 and level flight at around half throttle on their 1st trip out, NOT a good introduction for new rc'ers [:'(] I have seen a seagull bipe with the same problem too, cant remember which model, but was spectacular seeing it self destruct in the air, and yes, same problem. I had bought a boomerang trainer for my daughter, but after seeing them fold up, I opened my daughters up, and yes, no guts at all in the spars, verticle grain on webs, and no boxing for the wing joiner. all up a disaster just waiting. I tried to contact seagull several times but never got a word back at all [&o] I am now helping her scratch build a large telemaster (96"w/s and ST2000) which at least I know wont fold up mid air. As for chinese quality control? its an oxymoron up there with military intelligence. It seems to me that to the chinese quality control means to cut every possible corner. ARF's are of my shopping list permantly now[:'(], as the black horse Ultimate needed so many mods to hold together, it weould have been quicker to scratch build one, and my cm pro extra had its whole tail section just fall apart flying IMAC [&:] from now on its kits or scratch buiulding for me
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Old 09-19-2008, 06:55 AM
  #275  
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Default RE: AVOID THESE ARF's AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!

the companys mentioned above are known to be low quality arfs. had 1 seagull arf, never again.
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