View Poll Results: A poll
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Ever repair your own arf?
09-12-2004, 12:30 PM
#1
Ever repair your own arf?
Repair your own ARF? Here are the poll selections, click the appropriate button above in the poll.
1. I have never built or repaired my own plane.
2. I have assembled an ARF, but never repaired damage to it myself.
3. I have assembled an ARF, and have repaired covering, but not structural damage.
4. I have reassembled landing gear to an ARF after tearing them off.
5. I have repaired landing gear mounts on an ARF, and reattached the mounts and gear.
6. I have repaired structural wing or fuselage damage on an ARF, with satisfactory results.
7. I have made many satisfactory ARF structural repairs.
There have been a number of posts in forums such as the Kit Building forum about the impact of ARF’s on the hobby. Most are critical, but only one really interests me. The allegation made is that:
First, the new person buys the ARF,
Next, the new person assembles the ARF, or perhaps hires someone to do that task, and
Then, the new person encounters damage to the new plane and does not know how to fix it.
The criticism goes on to note that the bad thing about this is that new people wind up trying to fly damaged planes that have been inadequately or improperly repaired. A further criticism is that the person might dismiss the hobby and stop flying after one damage incident.
I would like to gather information to confirm or refute this criticism. My inclination is to suggest that ARF planes are repaired from necessity as often as Kit Builder planes, but I have no data to back that up. So, let’s find out if the criticism holds water. This poll requires responses too long for the automatically formatted poll starter, so here are the selections.
1. I have never built or repaired my own plane.
2. I have assembled an ARF, but never repaired damage to it myself.
3. I have assembled an ARF, and have repaired covering, but not structural damage.
4. I have reassembled landing gear to an ARF after tearing them off.
5. I have repaired landing gear mounts on an ARF, and reattached the mounts and gear.
6. I have repaired structural wing or fuselage damage on an ARF, with satisfactory results.
7. I have made many satisfactory ARF structural repairs.
Thanks,
Dave Olson
1. I have never built or repaired my own plane.
2. I have assembled an ARF, but never repaired damage to it myself.
3. I have assembled an ARF, and have repaired covering, but not structural damage.
4. I have reassembled landing gear to an ARF after tearing them off.
5. I have repaired landing gear mounts on an ARF, and reattached the mounts and gear.
6. I have repaired structural wing or fuselage damage on an ARF, with satisfactory results.
7. I have made many satisfactory ARF structural repairs.
There have been a number of posts in forums such as the Kit Building forum about the impact of ARF’s on the hobby. Most are critical, but only one really interests me. The allegation made is that:
First, the new person buys the ARF,
Next, the new person assembles the ARF, or perhaps hires someone to do that task, and
Then, the new person encounters damage to the new plane and does not know how to fix it.
The criticism goes on to note that the bad thing about this is that new people wind up trying to fly damaged planes that have been inadequately or improperly repaired. A further criticism is that the person might dismiss the hobby and stop flying after one damage incident.
I would like to gather information to confirm or refute this criticism. My inclination is to suggest that ARF planes are repaired from necessity as often as Kit Builder planes, but I have no data to back that up. So, let’s find out if the criticism holds water. This poll requires responses too long for the automatically formatted poll starter, so here are the selections.
1. I have never built or repaired my own plane.
2. I have assembled an ARF, but never repaired damage to it myself.
3. I have assembled an ARF, and have repaired covering, but not structural damage.
4. I have reassembled landing gear to an ARF after tearing them off.
5. I have repaired landing gear mounts on an ARF, and reattached the mounts and gear.
6. I have repaired structural wing or fuselage damage on an ARF, with satisfactory results.
7. I have made many satisfactory ARF structural repairs.
Thanks,
Dave Olson
09-12-2004, 01:54 PM
#2
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RE: Ever repair your own arf?
Might not have been a fair answer on my part as I first started in the hobby with CL kits so already had some build knowledge. Did teach me how to cover with iron-on coverings tho.
Most of my planes are kit built these days so I suppose I moved from ARF's to kits.
Most of my planes are kit built these days so I suppose I moved from ARF's to kits.
ORIGINAL: Scar
Repair your own ARF? Here are the poll selections, click the appropriate button above in the poll.
1. I have never built or repaired my own plane.
2. I have assembled an ARF, but never repaired damage to it myself.
3. I have assembled an ARF, and have repaired covering, but not structural damage.
4. I have reassembled landing gear to an ARF after tearing them off.
5. I have repaired landing gear mounts on an ARF, and reattached the mounts and gear.
6. I have repaired structural wing or fuselage damage on an ARF, with satisfactory results.
7. I have made many satisfactory ARF structural repairs.
There have been a number of posts in forums such as the Kit Building forum about the impact of ARF’s on the hobby. Most are critical, but only one really interests me. The allegation made is that:
First, the new person buys the ARF,
Next, the new person assembles the ARF, or perhaps hires someone to do that task, and
Then, the new person encounters damage to the new plane and does not know how to fix it.
The criticism goes on to note that the bad thing about this is that new people wind up trying to fly damaged planes that have been inadequately or improperly repaired. A further criticism is that the person might dismiss the hobby and stop flying after one damage incident.
I would like to gather information to confirm or refute this criticism. My inclination is to suggest that ARF planes are repaired from necessity as often as Kit Builder planes, but I have no data to back that up. So, let’s find out if the criticism holds water. This poll requires responses too long for the automatically formatted poll starter, so here are the selections.
1. I have never built or repaired my own plane.
2. I have assembled an ARF, but never repaired damage to it myself.
3. I have assembled an ARF, and have repaired covering, but not structural damage.
4. I have reassembled landing gear to an ARF after tearing them off.
5. I have repaired landing gear mounts on an ARF, and reattached the mounts and gear.
6. I have repaired structural wing or fuselage damage on an ARF, with satisfactory results.
7. I have made many satisfactory ARF structural repairs.
Thanks,
Dave Olson
Repair your own ARF? Here are the poll selections, click the appropriate button above in the poll.
1. I have never built or repaired my own plane.
2. I have assembled an ARF, but never repaired damage to it myself.
3. I have assembled an ARF, and have repaired covering, but not structural damage.
4. I have reassembled landing gear to an ARF after tearing them off.
5. I have repaired landing gear mounts on an ARF, and reattached the mounts and gear.
6. I have repaired structural wing or fuselage damage on an ARF, with satisfactory results.
7. I have made many satisfactory ARF structural repairs.
There have been a number of posts in forums such as the Kit Building forum about the impact of ARF’s on the hobby. Most are critical, but only one really interests me. The allegation made is that:
First, the new person buys the ARF,
Next, the new person assembles the ARF, or perhaps hires someone to do that task, and
Then, the new person encounters damage to the new plane and does not know how to fix it.
The criticism goes on to note that the bad thing about this is that new people wind up trying to fly damaged planes that have been inadequately or improperly repaired. A further criticism is that the person might dismiss the hobby and stop flying after one damage incident.
I would like to gather information to confirm or refute this criticism. My inclination is to suggest that ARF planes are repaired from necessity as often as Kit Builder planes, but I have no data to back that up. So, let’s find out if the criticism holds water. This poll requires responses too long for the automatically formatted poll starter, so here are the selections.
1. I have never built or repaired my own plane.
2. I have assembled an ARF, but never repaired damage to it myself.
3. I have assembled an ARF, and have repaired covering, but not structural damage.
4. I have reassembled landing gear to an ARF after tearing them off.
5. I have repaired landing gear mounts on an ARF, and reattached the mounts and gear.
6. I have repaired structural wing or fuselage damage on an ARF, with satisfactory results.
7. I have made many satisfactory ARF structural repairs.
Thanks,
Dave Olson
09-12-2004, 03:11 PM
#3
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RE: Ever repair your own arf?
if its anything more than the gear off it gets replaced. to much weight added for repairing it. but i repair other peoples that don't care how much it weighs.
09-12-2004, 07:34 PM
#5
RE: Ever repair your own arf?
I hate to burst your bubble, but I was visiting another field about a year ago, and a guy asked me to come to his house to "Engineer" a repair for him. He had a Tiger ARF that had a wing mounting block broken loose.
Do you know what my "Expert Engineering" Advice was? --- I told him to Epoxy it back in place.
Sounds like a simple fix huh? And yet he didn't have a clue of what to do without asking for advice.
Now of course, I'm not saying that all ARF fliers don't know how to repair. I'm just saying that there ARE a few out there.
Do you know what my "Expert Engineering" Advice was? --- I told him to Epoxy it back in place.
Sounds like a simple fix huh? And yet he didn't have a clue of what to do without asking for advice.
Now of course, I'm not saying that all ARF fliers don't know how to repair. I'm just saying that there ARE a few out there.
09-12-2004, 09:27 PM
#6
RE: Ever repair your own arf?
Yes, I would agree many ARF flyers don't know how to repair. That is because they don't want to know how to build either.
Perhaps you know how to repair because you had to learn how to build to fly. Today you can learn to fly before you have to learn to build or repair. Same thing, just different sequence.
Perhaps you know how to repair because you had to learn how to build to fly. Today you can learn to fly before you have to learn to build or repair. Same thing, just different sequence.
09-13-2004, 07:15 AM
#7
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RE: Ever repair your own arf?
I am guessing that those who fit into the "don't know how to repair"categories of this "poll" will not answer.
09-13-2004, 09:10 AM
#8
RE: Ever repair your own arf?
When I joined my club, the Long Island Silent Flyers, many people really
wanted me to build my first plane from a kit. To their frustration, I went
RTF. Why? Because I was interested in becoming an RC flyer, not a modeler.
There was a time when the two went hand in hand, but not any more.
From a cost point of view it is cheaper in many cases to go ARF or RTF. For
example, a Great Planes Spirit Sailplane kit costs about $50, two rolls of
covering are about $25. Add $10 for glue, hobby knife blades and the various
little stuff you use up making a kit and you are up to $85. Then you have to
select, buy and install the electronics. Let's call that another $65 for a
low end 3 channel introductory radio package. So the hard dollar outlay is
around $150 plus 30-50 hours of building and installing.
In my case, with the Spirit Select, for $150 I was in the air in 3 hours and
was learning to fly. There would have been no cost savings and I could be in
the air with a real starter plane and radio system for about the same price as
building it from scratch.
Now, that 30 to 50 hours might be a very enjoyable experience, but it would
mean that I couldn't fly for three to five weeks and might not build it
correctly.
I got into this hobby to fly, not to build. So, in many cases, for the new
person entering the hobby, building from a kit no longer presents a
significant savings in dollars and it no longer presents a barrier to flying.
Over the course of the past 18 months in the hobby, I guess I have done enough
repair work to have slipped into the builder category. I purchased a kit for
that Spirit and used the parts to make repairs. I have learned the skills
needed to do covering, carving and to build the plane from a kit now if I want
to, but if building the kit had been the only way to fly, I would not be
flying today.
I now read the kit reports and think of building my first complete kit. I
read the construction articles that I once passed over. Maybe some day I will
become a real modeler. But the day has passed when you had to be both.
Having that choice has greatly expanded the number of people enjoying the
hobby. Many will become modelers eventually, as I will. Many will simply buy
parts to replace broken pieces rather than have to deal with the building. I
can buy parts for the Great Planes Spirit and never have to build anything in
order to effect repairs. I like that! Some people are making their purchase
decisions based on parts availability.
I have chosen to take on the building part as a matter of personal
development. However another flyer in our club who started RTF just gets
another subsystem and throws the broken parts away, or gives them to someone
with the same model, like me, who uses them as pieces to effect future
repairs.
Modeling and flying are no longer interlinked required disciplines for us any
more than they are for the 747 or the F15 pilot.
wanted me to build my first plane from a kit. To their frustration, I went
RTF. Why? Because I was interested in becoming an RC flyer, not a modeler.
There was a time when the two went hand in hand, but not any more.
From a cost point of view it is cheaper in many cases to go ARF or RTF. For
example, a Great Planes Spirit Sailplane kit costs about $50, two rolls of
covering are about $25. Add $10 for glue, hobby knife blades and the various
little stuff you use up making a kit and you are up to $85. Then you have to
select, buy and install the electronics. Let's call that another $65 for a
low end 3 channel introductory radio package. So the hard dollar outlay is
around $150 plus 30-50 hours of building and installing.
In my case, with the Spirit Select, for $150 I was in the air in 3 hours and
was learning to fly. There would have been no cost savings and I could be in
the air with a real starter plane and radio system for about the same price as
building it from scratch.
Now, that 30 to 50 hours might be a very enjoyable experience, but it would
mean that I couldn't fly for three to five weeks and might not build it
correctly.
I got into this hobby to fly, not to build. So, in many cases, for the new
person entering the hobby, building from a kit no longer presents a
significant savings in dollars and it no longer presents a barrier to flying.
Over the course of the past 18 months in the hobby, I guess I have done enough
repair work to have slipped into the builder category. I purchased a kit for
that Spirit and used the parts to make repairs. I have learned the skills
needed to do covering, carving and to build the plane from a kit now if I want
to, but if building the kit had been the only way to fly, I would not be
flying today.
I now read the kit reports and think of building my first complete kit. I
read the construction articles that I once passed over. Maybe some day I will
become a real modeler. But the day has passed when you had to be both.
Having that choice has greatly expanded the number of people enjoying the
hobby. Many will become modelers eventually, as I will. Many will simply buy
parts to replace broken pieces rather than have to deal with the building. I
can buy parts for the Great Planes Spirit and never have to build anything in
order to effect repairs. I like that! Some people are making their purchase
decisions based on parts availability.
I have chosen to take on the building part as a matter of personal
development. However another flyer in our club who started RTF just gets
another subsystem and throws the broken parts away, or gives them to someone
with the same model, like me, who uses them as pieces to effect future
repairs.
Modeling and flying are no longer interlinked required disciplines for us any
more than they are for the 747 or the F15 pilot.
09-13-2004, 09:24 AM
#9
RE: Ever repair your own arf?
When I was considered a beginner, I started with an Avistar ARF and then added other ones to my fleet. As I did so, I did repair minor landing gear problems, and other dings and dents. This gave me a chance to begin to learn how to repair at the same time that I was flying. I now have built my first kit (a Somethin Extra) and will begin my second (Sig Hog Bipe) as soon as the weather keeps me from flying. I am in my third year now, and will repair, build, cover, and fix whatever needs to be fixed, but it it took time to learn and experience to help me know what to do. The only thing I haven't tried is building from scratch. At this point, it just doesn't interest me. I will stay with both ARF's and kits, and repairs from now on.
09-13-2004, 09:24 AM
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RE: Ever repair your own arf?
Well said aeajr! I also fly arf planes simply because building a plane is not on my list of priorities right now. I would rather learn to fly first. (this is my personal preference.I am by no means stating that I think building a kit is a bad thing.) However, I do plan on building a plane from a kit this winter for my personal enjoyment. (gets pretty cold up here in Mich. Not many days to fly.) Aeajr is right. You no longer need to know how to build a kit to fly. It's all about personal choice. There is NOTHING wrong with using arf planes or kit built planes. Just relax and enjoy the hobby!!!
09-13-2004, 05:57 PM
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RE: Ever repair your own arf?
Looks familiar. I keep a pair of Superstars for students to fly, & I did that repair quite a few times until I fitted a 1/2" thick firewall, epoxied & cross-screwed into place -- haven't replaced a firewall in them for about 8 yrs now.
09-13-2004, 09:50 PM
#13
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RE: Ever repair your own arf?
I started flying with an ARF years ago. I made repairs to them when ever I crashed them also, unless it was totaled of course.
I have built a kit, Sig Wonder, just to see how it would be. I agree that the cost of building is right about the same as buying a kit. I will build another kit at some point, but till then I'm an ARF guy.
I have about four kits sitting in my closet right now. Some things you can't get in ARF form so you have to kit build. I only got these because they were being sold so cheap I couldn't refuse.
Just don't call me ARFy.
I have built a kit, Sig Wonder, just to see how it would be. I agree that the cost of building is right about the same as buying a kit. I will build another kit at some point, but till then I'm an ARF guy.
I have about four kits sitting in my closet right now. Some things you can't get in ARF form so you have to kit build. I only got these because they were being sold so cheap I couldn't refuse.
Just don't call me ARFy.
09-13-2004, 11:14 PM
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RE: Ever repair your own arf?
Well guys, there were quite a few mouth fulls said!
I must agree on several points. When I started in 1965, there were no ARF's. Monocote had just come out and man was it heavy! It didn't stretch very well either. At least no one was aware of its capabilities for some time.
Silk and dope was the standard. Or silkspan. Now I use monocote exclusively. Oh, and don't forget the ambroid or testers cement or elmers glueall. Epoxy? Yeah! if you wanted to wait 24 hours!
Super glue, excelerator and forget the pins! Well, a lot has changed in the last forty years. I have built a multitude of planes. In kit form and scratch. But, I love ARF's! They are so convenient. And cheap! Where else can you buy a plane with the radio and engine already in it for 300 bucks? Just assemble it and charge it up and go fly. Now I'm not into that facet of it because I have most everything but the plane I want, so if I don't feel like building the kit of something that is arf, then I will get the arf.
Like my 1/3 Pitts. You can't build that plane and get it ready to install the equipment for 400 bucks! What a beautiful job these people do!
There are some things that I am not quite in love with but I have the ability to affect the changes I want.
Now, having said that, let me say this. When someone comes into the hobby, they have the right to make what ever decision they wish. If they want to go ARF, then that is their choice. If they want to build their first plane as a kit, that is also theirs to decide.
Which ever way they go, and I feel this is the most important key to success in this hobby, is to get a qualified instructor at the local field!
This will give the beginner the best odds at succeding. If the beginner tries to fly by themselves, well, you know what will happen 99.999% of the time. Right? Right!
I must say that the self tought person is one of the best fliers that I have ever seen though. They are very determined. This is not the case always though because as it has been said earlier in the thread, it could cause them to quit right at the get go.
To tell someone that they should go ARF or build a KIT, should be done gingerly. You can not force your own ethics in this matter. "Beating them up" about it could aelienate them before they even get started.
I will however, encourage them to get the ARF and get flying while they start building another trainer from a kit. It is important for the beginner to go through a couple of trainers. If the ARF is a high wing trainer, then build a low wing or mid wing trainer sport plane. It is so easy to encourage the fledgling as it is to kill their desire to get into the hobby.
At this point in my life, I have gone with many different ARF's because you can get one in just about any class. They are quite beautiful too. And with just a little effort you can turn them into something spectacular. As I did with my Pitts. I have put an OS 320 in it and detailed the cockpit. I scratch built a nice instrument panel and put a floor board and seat that is inlayed with cherry and maple vaneer like a butcher board. And of course I have a really neat pilot for it. Since I am known as Bigbird, I have a bigbird stuffed charactor. It is a very impressive model.
Well, I hope i haven't bored you but have shed some good thoughts on the subject. If I ever find out how to post my pictures of the pitts, I will do so for you. Again, many thanx for reading this. bird.
P.S. How about them simulators. They have made it easier than ever. That buddy box has made a difference too since you don't have to pass the transmitter back and forth. Or forcably grab it from him when he kept saying 'I got it' 'I got it'! Remember that one? Whew!
Remember, when the wheels are on top of the plane, down is up!
I must agree on several points. When I started in 1965, there were no ARF's. Monocote had just come out and man was it heavy! It didn't stretch very well either. At least no one was aware of its capabilities for some time.
Silk and dope was the standard. Or silkspan. Now I use monocote exclusively. Oh, and don't forget the ambroid or testers cement or elmers glueall. Epoxy? Yeah! if you wanted to wait 24 hours!
Super glue, excelerator and forget the pins! Well, a lot has changed in the last forty years. I have built a multitude of planes. In kit form and scratch. But, I love ARF's! They are so convenient. And cheap! Where else can you buy a plane with the radio and engine already in it for 300 bucks? Just assemble it and charge it up and go fly. Now I'm not into that facet of it because I have most everything but the plane I want, so if I don't feel like building the kit of something that is arf, then I will get the arf.
Like my 1/3 Pitts. You can't build that plane and get it ready to install the equipment for 400 bucks! What a beautiful job these people do!
There are some things that I am not quite in love with but I have the ability to affect the changes I want.
Now, having said that, let me say this. When someone comes into the hobby, they have the right to make what ever decision they wish. If they want to go ARF, then that is their choice. If they want to build their first plane as a kit, that is also theirs to decide.
Which ever way they go, and I feel this is the most important key to success in this hobby, is to get a qualified instructor at the local field!
This will give the beginner the best odds at succeding. If the beginner tries to fly by themselves, well, you know what will happen 99.999% of the time. Right? Right!
I must say that the self tought person is one of the best fliers that I have ever seen though. They are very determined. This is not the case always though because as it has been said earlier in the thread, it could cause them to quit right at the get go.
To tell someone that they should go ARF or build a KIT, should be done gingerly. You can not force your own ethics in this matter. "Beating them up" about it could aelienate them before they even get started.
I will however, encourage them to get the ARF and get flying while they start building another trainer from a kit. It is important for the beginner to go through a couple of trainers. If the ARF is a high wing trainer, then build a low wing or mid wing trainer sport plane. It is so easy to encourage the fledgling as it is to kill their desire to get into the hobby.
At this point in my life, I have gone with many different ARF's because you can get one in just about any class. They are quite beautiful too. And with just a little effort you can turn them into something spectacular. As I did with my Pitts. I have put an OS 320 in it and detailed the cockpit. I scratch built a nice instrument panel and put a floor board and seat that is inlayed with cherry and maple vaneer like a butcher board. And of course I have a really neat pilot for it. Since I am known as Bigbird, I have a bigbird stuffed charactor. It is a very impressive model.
Well, I hope i haven't bored you but have shed some good thoughts on the subject. If I ever find out how to post my pictures of the pitts, I will do so for you. Again, many thanx for reading this. bird.
P.S. How about them simulators. They have made it easier than ever. That buddy box has made a difference too since you don't have to pass the transmitter back and forth. Or forcably grab it from him when he kept saying 'I got it' 'I got it'! Remember that one? Whew!
Remember, when the wheels are on top of the plane, down is up!
09-17-2004, 12:25 PM
#15
RE: Ever repair your own arf?
(Sept. 17 2004) So far, 62 people have responded to this poll, which is intended to gather some data on the extent to which ARF fliers repair their own planes.
Of the 62 responses:
25.8% (16) have assembled their own ARF, and may have made cosmetic repairs to the covering,
19.4% (12) have made at least one repair more complex than patching the covering, and
54.8% (34) have made multiple structural repairs to their ARF's.
That's about 74% who are capable of at least putting their own landing gear back on. And most of those are prepared to fix the fuselage or wing, to some extent.
The impression I have gathered, over the years, is that most people who use ARF's are prepared to do some repairs, commensurate with their skills. Nothing in this survey tells me otherwise.
Any others feel like commenting, or answering the survey?
Best wishes,
Dave Olson
Of the 62 responses:
25.8% (16) have assembled their own ARF, and may have made cosmetic repairs to the covering,
19.4% (12) have made at least one repair more complex than patching the covering, and
54.8% (34) have made multiple structural repairs to their ARF's.
That's about 74% who are capable of at least putting their own landing gear back on. And most of those are prepared to fix the fuselage or wing, to some extent.
The impression I have gathered, over the years, is that most people who use ARF's are prepared to do some repairs, commensurate with their skills. Nothing in this survey tells me otherwise.
Any others feel like commenting, or answering the survey?
Best wishes,
Dave Olson
09-17-2004, 04:47 PM
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RE: Ever repair your own arf?
I think arf's are the best thing since sliced bread. Now having said that I also think everyone should build at least one kit just so they know what is going on inside the plane to begin with so that when repairs are needed you at least have a clue how things need to go back together, even if it's a simple lazer cut kit like an S.E.
09-17-2004, 08:52 PM
#17
RE: Ever repair your own arf?
Scar,
Over the years ... Yah, well over the years most people will build some kits. People just don't stick to ARFs exclusively. I build mostly kits. I feel the poll is flawed because it did not prevent me from voting! I like ARFs when I need a plane in the air quick. This kind of reminds me the argument if you drive a car do you have to be a mechanic also? No, but you are either mechanically inclined or you are not. You can either figure out how things go together and how to repair them or it is beyond your capability to do so. Doesn't have a hill of beans to do with if you build kits or ARFs it is how your mind works and what you like to do.
If you build kits you can see the underlying structures that make up model airplanes. If all you ever did was build ARFs you don't see what is beneath the skin and so repairs are harder, not impossible just harder. That is why most people recommend some experience building kits.
What is the big deal about ARFs or kits or plans built? Do you thing and have fun. If you can fix em great. If you can't buy some more. Everybody is endowed with different talents, enjoy yours.
John
That's about 74% who are capable of at least putting their own landing gear back on. And most of those are prepared to fix the fuselage or wing, to some extent.
The impression I have gathered, over the years, is that most people who use ARF's are prepared to do some repairs, commensurate with their skills. Nothing in this survey tells me otherwise.
The impression I have gathered, over the years, is that most people who use ARF's are prepared to do some repairs, commensurate with their skills. Nothing in this survey tells me otherwise.
If you build kits you can see the underlying structures that make up model airplanes. If all you ever did was build ARFs you don't see what is beneath the skin and so repairs are harder, not impossible just harder. That is why most people recommend some experience building kits.
What is the big deal about ARFs or kits or plans built? Do you thing and have fun. If you can fix em great. If you can't buy some more. Everybody is endowed with different talents, enjoy yours.
John
09-19-2004, 10:25 AM
#18
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RE: Ever repair your own arf?
I bought a SIG Rascal 40 ARF and put in a .56 Saito turning a Master Airscrew 12 x 5 prop. Man does it fly good! As soon as the tail lifts it is ready to fly, and it cruises at 1/4 throttle, does decent basic aerobatics. I was doing touch and goes , having so much fun I forgot about time and ran out of gas just as I pulled up; 25 feet up when engine quit and nowhere to go straight ahead (trees). Stalled while trying to turn and went in on the nose and right wingtip. Broke right wing 6 in. out from root (complete through spar and 2 ribs) as well as crushing center section where wings attach. At first it didn't look repairable, but nothing was missing. With the wing supported at the tip to maintain alignment, and the cover removed, I straightened all the crushed sheeting and ribs, realigned the spar, and with it all pinned down, hit it with fast CA. Then I cut 3/8 in holes through all the ribs from the root to the aileron bay directly aft of the spar and inserted a 1/2 in. carbon fiber tube (1/16 wall thickness) and used thinned epoxy finishing resin to bond it to the spar and all the ribs it passed through. Sanded the sheeting to smooth the surface wrinkles. The center section windshield support was repaired similarly, careful realignment and reinforcement with 1/4 in. carbon fiber flat stock. I didn't worry too much about affecting fore-aft balance because all this repair was pretty much right a the center of mass. To balance the plane side to side I duplicated all the wing work on the undamaged left wing. I did not have any Monocote to repair the cover, but had several rolls of 21st Century Fabric that I was going to cover a Decathalon I am building, so I stripped the cover from the entire Rascal and recovered it with the white 21st Century stuff, then masked and painted it in a red, white and blue flag scheme, using Top Flite paint. I am giving all this detail to illustrate this: originally, the plane weighed 5.4 lbs flight ready (no fuel). With all the rebuild mods it added 0.8 lbs. to the model, much of which was the heavier 21st Century covering. It balanced out tail-heavy, so I added a 2.5 oz weight under the fuse just aft of the engine mount and put an aluminum spinner on it, balancing it perfectly at 6.6 lbs. It flies just as well as ever, the only noticeable difference being a higher throttle setting at cruise (1/2). I actually like the way it handles better than before because it it less prone to "float" on short final. I realize this fix might add too much weight too a model with an already high wing loading , but it illustrated that a seemingly "fatal" injury can be repaired without ruining the plane's flight characteristics. I've since had to repaiir the fuselage just forward of the empennage from a non-flight related crunch (another story in itself!), but it did not affect flight characteristics at all.
09-19-2004, 10:46 AM
#19
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Ever repair your own arf?
I'm in total agreement with John Norton. I'd personally rather build from a kit, because I enjoy building something and having the satisfaction of seeing it work (and work well), but there is absolutely nothing the matter with flying just ARF's. I bought my Rascal 40 so I could learn to fly tail draggers and not worry too much about dinging it up because I don't have the emotional baggage of tearing something up that I spent months and months building ( that mindset hasn't completely worked- see my recent repair entry). The one downside, if indeed it even is a downside, to ARF's is the relative lack of individuality. Building a kit allows you to individualize it to YOUR liking and feel comfortable that when you show up at the field, noone else will be there with a plane just like yours. But JNorton is right, you don't have to be a mechanic to drive a car, nor an A&P technician to be a pilot. That's one of the great things about clubs. There's builders, there's flyers, there's both, and everybody are willing to share their strengths with others. By the way, John, I like your Rascal icon, you should see my "All American" paint scheme on mine.
09-19-2004, 12:54 PM
#20
RE: Ever repair your own arf?
As I stated in the initial post, this poll is my response to criticisms I have read in forums like Kit Builders. The criticism, which I might add is not appropriate in this forum (ARF & RTF), makes the blanket allegation that ARF people can't repair.
According to this poll (and this is a forum for ARF people), a large number of them can, and do.
Dave Olson
According to this poll (and this is a forum for ARF people), a large number of them can, and do.
Dave Olson
09-19-2004, 02:41 PM
#21
RE: Ever repair your own arf?
Scar,
The question is if you have the skill to make a repair, not whether you fly an ARF or a kit. Skills are learned, whether you fly a kit or an ARF makes no difference. There is a grain of truth that a brand new flyer having only flown an ARF's will not know how to make repairs. So? My answer is teach them how.
An excellent way to teach structure is to build a kit.
Or you can uncover enough of the ARF that the structure can be seen and the logic behind the repair determined. Splicing of longerons, rebuilding bulkheads, recutting new wing ribs are usually beyond a persons skill set if they don't understand how the structure combines to form a whole.
There is too much of this ARF verses Kit, 3D verses Pattern, Balsa verses SPADs, Planks verses Helicopters. We all fly. Enjoy the hobby.
John
The question is if you have the skill to make a repair, not whether you fly an ARF or a kit. Skills are learned, whether you fly a kit or an ARF makes no difference. There is a grain of truth that a brand new flyer having only flown an ARF's will not know how to make repairs. So? My answer is teach them how.
An excellent way to teach structure is to build a kit.
Or you can uncover enough of the ARF that the structure can be seen and the logic behind the repair determined. Splicing of longerons, rebuilding bulkheads, recutting new wing ribs are usually beyond a persons skill set if they don't understand how the structure combines to form a whole.There is too much of this ARF verses Kit, 3D verses Pattern, Balsa verses SPADs, Planks verses Helicopters. We all fly. Enjoy the hobby.
John
09-19-2004, 06:15 PM
#22
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RE: Ever repair your own arf?
When I crashes one of dem AFR's she stays crashed. I don't have any mercy on an airplane. I fly it like I stole it and consequently, my crashes are spectacular. Like when I cartwheeled my 120 Stinger during a pylon race at about 80 mph. It was awesome but there was no repairing to be done. The only fitting thing was to strip the hardware and have a nice viking funeral pyre. My Demon Spad went into a dirt nap WOT. That one I can just build a new one and go on.
The Pizazz bit the big one when I mixed too much down elevator with flaps and when I put the flaps on she went POW right into the dirt.
It goes on and on so I won't bore you with more details, just suffice to say that there ain't nuthin' left worth repairing when I dork one in.
Got a new Mustang that I hope survives a while but ain't making no guarantees. Also working on two new Profiles. Ha Ha Ha, this ought to be good.
The Pizazz bit the big one when I mixed too much down elevator with flaps and when I put the flaps on she went POW right into the dirt.
It goes on and on so I won't bore you with more details, just suffice to say that there ain't nuthin' left worth repairing when I dork one in.
Got a new Mustang that I hope survives a while but ain't making no guarantees. Also working on two new Profiles. Ha Ha Ha, this ought to be good.
09-22-2004, 01:31 PM
#23
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RE: Ever repair your own arf?
From what I have seen with about 50% of the ARF's out there, you have to do repairs to the plane BEFORE you can first fly it[X(]
02-28-2008, 01:21 PM
#24
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RE: Ever repair your own arf?
Sometimes we forget the most important thing in this flying hobby is to have fun. For me it’s all about the fun factor, and for me kit building is tedious and boring, so it will be a COLD DAY IN HELL before I build a plane from kit form, why bother spending 300 hours when you could be flying in 30. I will always be a flyer not a builder. And I will be bold enough to make this prediction. There will be no more kits in your hobby store in about 8 to 10 years. They will all be ARF or RTF. If you think I’m crazy take a good look at your store next time, 90% of the boxes are either ARF or RTF.
If they made RTF with good radios and servos and big enough, say 70 or 80 inches I would be the first in line to buy one. However RTF are cheap pieces of crap and lack quality servos, engines and radio gear, so I have never bought one. On the other hand ARF planes do not have any electronics or engine in them, so you can customize it the way you like.
I’m not a young man, I just turned 50 and would not have gotten in this flying hobby a couple of years ago, if they did not make good quality ARF’s like the Great Planes PT-17 Stearman, cause I would have never built one form scratch, no mater how much fun it is to fly.
And for all you builders out there. I admire and respect you, putting all that time on the bench, before you can go out to the field and fly your creation, but I’m sorry to report, you are a dying species and the hobby will be worse off when this happens, as we will not be able to get that great advice and wisdom that you gained from experience. I think that the majority of people getting into this hobby today are like me and buying ARF or RTF. Kit building will die off like VCR's and LP vinyl records.
And lastly to answer the poll. I have made lots of structural repairs to both fuselages and wings, not that I wanted too or enjoyed it, but because I had too. As I’ve had more that a few crashes in my short two-year career as an R/C Pilot.
Check my Stearman in action on You Tube. The Stearman makes contact with the grass, so I called the video “ Parting the Grass “.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVN1G2o0pMI
BOUND_4_HELL
You can never have too much power, as you can always throttle back.
02-28-2008, 01:44 PM
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RE: Ever repair your own arf?
ORIGINAL: RLDIII
From what I have seen with about 50% of the ARF's out there, you have to do repairs to the plane BEFORE you can first fly it[X(]
From what I have seen with about 50% of the ARF's out there, you have to do repairs to the plane BEFORE you can first fly it[X(]