IronCross

philg2005
Congtradulations.. Glad to hear you had a succesfull time with it... Are you flying off grass ?.. I am flying off an asphalt runway and never had a problem with it tipping over ?....

philg2005

yes im flying on grass, its quite bumpy ground, i think it will just take more practice as landing with a tri-gear is easy

john neilson

My Feedback: (2)

Flying off grass! Very different than asphalt and suggest you try three point landings. Control decent with throttle while keeping the wings level. When you are a few inches from the ground, cut the throttle and upon touchdown, pull a little up to control the nose over. That is, unless you hit those bumps! It is easy for us to second guess what is happening here on RCU! Best of luck and try to stay ahead of the airplane.

JOHN

c130j

I have added some right thrust to my engine mount. Also added a little extra weight to the nose and aircraft is flying much better.

IronCross

c130j
Can you tell if adding the right thrust affected you ground handling any ?...
Trying to put together a plan for my second one here

c130j

yes it has helped with directional control on ground. Yesterday was the first time I flew it with some right thrust. It still pulls to the left on takeoff and in a vertical climb. So I am going to add a another washer under the engine mount and try it again. I probably will not fly until this weekend. I will let you know if it's improving.

IronCross

What size engine are you running ?... I had a 70 4s in the one I wrecked... It had a good verticle line with no thrust added.. On the ground it would pull to either the right or left... It went to the right when I lost it.... I should have my new one on Wed.. I am really going to concentrate on incidance and thrust on this one.. Let us know how that extra thrust works out...
Thanks

john neilson

My Feedback: (2)

My GUESS is, it will help! Let us know and, when you get the gyro, it won't make a whole lot of difference...it will compensate!

JOHN

IronCross

John
Do you leave your gyro turned on all the time ?... I am thinking just for takeoff and maybe landing ?... Not sure what the implications would be in the air...
Roger

c130j

I am running a SuperTiger 51 with a APC 12.25x3.75 propeller

john neilson

My Feedback: (2)

No Roger...I mentioned that a while back, only on takeoff and landing. Takeoff, turn off before you make your turn out and landing, turn on as you have made your turn to final. Otherwise it fights you in the air. Keep in mind, it is still running, at least mine is, even when off so your battery load is greater! Check with your meter at least every other flight...see how confident I am! Thinking back, I have turned it on while doing a loop or cuban eight and it seems to help you from rolling off. Once airborne, you can experiment without any fears.

JOHN

c130j

well I just got back from flying and the plane is tracking straight down the runway with minimum rudder input. The vertical line is straight instead of pulling to the left. I added three washers under the engine mount to give me left thrust. The plane is a pleasure to flying now and I do not think it warrants a gyro system.

john neilson

My Feedback: (2)

Congrats but, I think you meant to say, three washers under left side of mount to give you RIGHT thrust! You have neutralized the the left hand thrust of the motor!

JOHN

c130j

you are right John I did mean to say right thrust, thanks for catching that.

john neilson

My Feedback: (2)

No problem. I should of added that this does not eliminate the value of the gyro . I fly off off a paved runway so I have no choice except right or left in a crosswind. If straight down, no problem but we often have a cross or quartering wind! I hope you have helped others reading this.

JOHN

old bird

Well guys, I promised to report back after test flights with the wing incidence changed. There is good news and bad news. The good news is that the Seagull Decathlon is much more managable on the ground with the trailing edge of the wing raised 1/10". It will stay on the runway just that much longer for the tail surfaces to become effective. Slight pull to the left on take-off, but easily managable with a minor input of right rudder. The bad news is that on the fourth test flight, I dumb-assed a landing. The second bounce was on a wing-tip, the wing was knocked off but undamaged due to the nylon bolts letting go, but the fuselage broke in half right behind the front door-posts. The second good news is that it is easily repairable and will be stronger than before. That whole cage around the windows needs some reenforcement I think. I did reenforce the rear area where the wing bolts go through and that held fine.

C130J, can you tell us how thick the washer stack that your are using under your motor mount? We are using one washer on each of the left bolts, about .030" thick, and I think they should be a bit thicker.

As to the gyro issue, I think it is a great idea and we may use it in our Corsair, but I don't think it is necessary in the Seagull Decathlon, when the right tweaking is done.

Best regards from old bird.

IronCross

Thanks for the info... Sounds like your on the right track.. Did it handle better in the air with the incidence changed ?... I got my gyro and have been playing with it.. Got it programed in my raido.. I programed it to one of my rotary knobs (VRA) on the radio... By turning the knob I can select AVCS, Normal Mode, Off, and select the amount of gain... Works great.. I like it.. Can't wait to get it in a plane and try it..
That weak area you are talking about is what sustained most of the damage in mine also.. I had the back mount on mine reinforced and also the front one.. Problem was my reinforcement held and ripped out the rest of the cabin area..
I am taking a lot of notes here... No 2 looks like it will be a much better flying airplane..

john neilson

My Feedback: (2)

Mr. Old Bird, IC, & C130J...You guys have been very helpful to others reading this and hope they read all the previous posts that have gotten us to this point.

My suggestion on the thrust washers was intended for those who chose not to, or couldn't afford a gyro. The thickness or degree of right thrust as I mentioned prev. depends on the size of the engine and would be strictly experimental. The obvious that has come out of that is, It will help on takeoff and landing. As for the bounce and wing tip, and I presume cartwheeling, hitting causing breakout and apart, nothing can stop that. The plane just stopped flying! But, then again, maybe a gyro might of been able to overcome it. You'll never know until you try it!!

I was out today, good day, and discussed the gyro with a Turbine Jet guy.
He uses one and would not fly without it. He learned the value while flying P38's. Crashed the first two and #3 is on it's way (he loves them). A little different with a twin and his problem in the past was engine failure. He is convinced that with the gyro, #3 will last alot longer and that will be a failsafe. He is right!!

Good luck guys and keep the reports coming.

Regards,

JOHN

old bird

Iron Cross, one interesting and unexplainable thing about the change in wing incidence, is that there was very little trim change required. My test pilot on the first test flight remarked on this, having got the plane to altitude and handing the radio over to me. I would have thought that more up elevator trim would be required, but that was not the case. My first take-off and landing today were without any problems, I had very good rudder control. The last one was just a pilot error, no excuses, just a dumb thumbs mistake. As to general flying qualities, I don't think I'm qualifed to make a statement. It was easily controlled in the air, but a little more sluggish than my old Starduster (Midwest), but I had intentionally set the control throws on the conservative side.

Our flying weather is turning to crap again tomorrow, so I will be cutting and fitting and mixing epoxy for the next few days, and will report back after the next flights.

JN, I don't think that the gyro would have made any differance on my bad landing. I am really having a hard time coming back from our long winter lay-off. My next priority after rebuilding the Decathlon is to get a good flight simulator.

Best regards from old bird

IronCross

old bird
Thanks for the additional information.. Keep it coming Interesting on the incidance... I plan on setting mine at 0 for the first flight.. Also will have the gyro in there too...
You guys must be getting the wind too.. It has been blowing like crazy here the last few days... Didn't get any flying in last week.

John
How is yours flying ?... No problems yet...

john neilson

My Feedback: (2)

Just fine Roger. Takeoffs are a mute subject with me. A little rudder and throttle control and off she goes. Landings are about the same procedur. Maybe a little more attention to power setting, idle and speed at touchdown. I have certainly done the bouncing act like Old Bird but with just a touch of throttle, perhaps on and off, and you can get that second chance at planting the wheels. With the gyro, I'm certain it gives you that second chance because of the prop wash. Again, each flight is different and we are still second guessing what she will do. The mistake I have made too often is not letting her roll out almost to a stop before attempting a turn around. Of course you get that skidding and wing tip going down which makes you look bad! This would be less of a problem flying from grass unlike our paved runways.

Your Gyro sounds allot more sophisticated than mine! Look forward to hear of your success.

JOHN

c130j

old bird, it did not measure it but if I had to take a guest it would probably be around .060 to .085. It requires a lot more than any other aircraft I have owned.

IronCross

c130j
How are your verticle lines with the thrust offset that way ?... I had no offset added, was ugly on the ground but had real straight up lines... I figured if I added offset it would make it pull to the right while going verticle ???...

c130j

Iron cross, before I offset the engine mount it pulled hard left on takeoff. And on the vertical lines it would pull to the left also. So I experimented with the washers at first I only put one washer. I could see an improvement in both areas. So I had two more washers for a total of three and the takeoffs are pretty good now just a normal tail dragger. The vertical lines are straight but as airspeed bleeds off you need to do a rudder correction due to the torque which is normal. I have about 15 flights on it now and I am really enjoying the aircraft now. It's definitely is improving my rudder skills which is making me a better pilot.

old bird

C130J, thanks for the comeback on the motor-mount shim washers. I am going to add a bit more thickness to ours to get about .060"of right-thrust offset to the motor-mount. Between all of us working on this plane, I think we will get it figured out. I wanted to use this plane as the next step in training for our warbirds, and all of this development and exchange of ideas is just great for my son and I. RCU is a great forum. I will report back after the next flights, probably towards the end of next week. Windy weather is forecast anyway for a few days, so the rebuilding will go well.

Iron Cross, I see that you are from N. California, what part? I am from the east bay area, moved to Nevada in 1976, I thought that California was too crowded then. And look at it now, once in a while we go to San Francisco to visit our oldest son and his wife. I cannot believe the growth and the traffic jams.

Best regards from old bird.