ameyam

Cpt Crash

I want to 3D the airplane and make it last as long as possible (Isint that kind of impossible?). Phoenix has another airplane -the Yak 60" which is the same airplane- just with a radial cowl and a round fuse. I and a collegue are 3Ding that airplane (its his plane. I have one too but its still in box) with a 120ax so we are finding out what the problem areas are on the Extra. Since he moved from the 16x8 to 18x6, he can hover at 40% throttle with no rudder correction needed which is quite spectacular. The vibrations have increased, however, he had difficulty keeping the cowl screws on even with the 16x8. That is the primary reason I was thinking fo the anti-vibe mount

I have reinforced what I can reach for now including firewall (I will fiberglass that also), LG block, all bulkheads and where I could reach. Pictures are attached. I used epoxy with filler everywhere and used CA only to tack. Its not pretty, I know, but I dont mind if it does the job. I am also going to open up the bottom of the fuse towards the tail- the last two open bays, put in ply from inside the tail and fiberglass the tail from inside to reinforce it, the re-cover it. Its a lot of work, I know, but I have seen it pay on other airplanes. All of this will add some weight hence the larger engine, larger 3" wheels (which will allow for the bigger prop) and a 18x6 or 17x4 prop. I am currently testing this setup on the yak. So I dont expect (and dont want) a disintegrated fuse. I am also planning wing tip SFGs so as to add more landing stability

If you look at it, what options do I have? The 95ax would be too weak for this airplane especially after what I have done to it and 1.08 is no longer available. In any case, the 120 fits in the same holes sat the 75 and 95. I have a 75ax and a fs91sII but nothing between those and the 120.

In any case, I dont like to fly fast so, unless I deadstick (dont even mention that word right now) I should be OK

Ameyam

ameyam

Images

ameyam

Images

min$2crash

Nolefan61- per your request: Pictures of my Lockwire setupfor the wing bolts. First pic shows the holes in the wing bolt tabs. I just leave the wire attached to one bolt.
The wire is shown installed in the next pic, running over the wing tube to the front bolt. I put a hole in each tab so that there's always one on the right side.
Be sure and choose the hole that would make the wire have to get longer to let the bolt unscrew. There's a fancy way to do this... but I just twist it a couple of times. OK to have 1/4" of slack- picture the bolt trying to unscrew.
Note on the Right hand side the extra balsa added for Landing gear load distribution- one piece of aileron stock, thick side forward, on the bottom plate of the fuse. Two 1/4" sticks each side shaved to fit the fuse sides at the joints.
Just a little extra support to absorb and distribute shock loads during my "less than perfect" landings!

ameyam

Will a 95ax be sufficient for 3d on this airplane or should I use a 120ax?

Ameyam

Cpt Crash

My Feedback: (12)

Ameyam,

It should be; what's your field's elevation above sea level? I've flown the OS 95ax on the much heavier Seagull Extra 260, and it flies very nicely, but doesn't 3D. Then again, it's a porky 10 pound airplane. My Phoenix is 7.2 pounds and flies well on a GMS .76, but has limited vertical ability due in part to my flying field being at 5900 feet above sea level. There are plenty of videos showing 3D pilots hucking the Phoenix Extra with JBA and Sanye 91 engines; the OS 95 is a much better engine with outstanding performance. Still, the brute power of a 120 would be very tempting...

ameyam

We fly at absolute sea level. In fact, the sea is just across the road from our horse racing track, just a kilometer or two.

The 120's brute power is tempting. A colleague is flying the Phoenix Yak with that engine and a 18x6 prop. You need both hands and both feet to hold her on the ground. Its the same airplane, just a radial cowl. Problem is that the larger engine vibrates more and he has trouble keeping is cowl screws in. Prop and all is as balanced as we could get them

I dont have a 95ax. I am also having problems with 55ax on my Reactor 46 and will need a engine for that airplane as well. I do have the 120 however- it was for a Funtana but I dont mind using on the Extra. So I really need to decide what to do

Ameyam

Cpt Crash

My Feedback: (12)

Ameyam,

If you have the 120 sitting there on the bench, go for it. I got around the cowl screw problem by reinforcing the holes. I drilled them, tapped them, then wicked in some epoxy. Let it cure, and it's stayed together since. That thing is going to be a monster with the 120 under the hood. In a good way, that is... You should be able to get balance by moving your battery. I also moved the rudder servo back to clear the rear wing bolts; that helped with CG. Good luck on the build; keep the Phoenix Extra brotherhood updated as you get it together and out to the field.

Wrangler1

Hi to all, finally after 2 1/2 months of waiting i flew for the second time the Extra 330, this time i moved the battery from the battery tray to the Servos Base and attached to it. With this modification it didn't declare tail heavy and had a smooth lift of from the take off run, besides that, while it was flying leveled it shows tendencies to go up, so i decided to put some spacers in the upper screws of the engine mount to gain some down trust.

Also when we were flaring the plane to touch down it shows tendencies to drop the tail, so i put some weight over the engine mount. I will be flying the plane in about 3 weeks, so until then i'll not know the result of this, but i think is going to be good to have a little nose heavy tendency on it.

Also i found a problem to hold the deflector on the muffler exhaust, no matter what i do, that Du-bro deflector is trowm away by the engine compression and heat, and i'm concern of the fuselage damage that can cause. Does anybody have an idea on how i can make a deflector using a copper tuber, or other and that does not turn loose ? Need some suggestions !!!!

Thanks People.

Photos attached.

Cpt Crash

My Feedback: (12)

You could bend a short piece of brass tubing of the correct diameter that would slip around the muffler outlet pipe. Once it's shaped to exit correctly, drill a couple of holes for two small self-tapping sheet metal screws, run them through the brass tube into the muffler outlet pipe. Seal it all up with RTV silicone during assembly to keep oil residue to a minimum. Should hold together well, but if you need to, it will be removeable.

min$2crash

This may be too late for the Wrangler, but it is nearly impossible to keep a silicone outlet extension on a 4 stroke exhaust.
The stock 45° motor mount orientation lends itself to just pointing the muffler outlet in the tunnel, sticking out slightly below the fuselage- best choice for a 4 stroke muffler.
An alternative would be to buy one of the corrugated bendable ~150mm long exhaust pipes for your engine (Saito has them I know for sure- OS probably does as well) and maybe even skip the muffler altogether.
That corrugated pipe's open end could be held in place with a simple strap so that it doesn't fatigue off too quickly.
I added a close fitting aluminum diverter pipe to my Saito muffler and it seemed to fatigue off every 20-40 flights. Brass tubing will possibly be worse due to material properties and thinner wall.
My diverter pipe was dead soft aluminum for air conditioning contractors, with a slit to get it over the muffler and a hose clamp to hold it in place.
Looked good, worked well, fell off a lot due to fatigue!! Tabs would still be clamped to the muffler but the pipe would fall off.

ameyam

I really cant get my head aeound which engine is preferable on this airplane to do 3D- 95ax, 120ax or DLE20.?

I have the 120 but I fear it will be too heavy for decent 3D. Getting the 95 is difficult and the DLE I am not sure as it will be my first gas engine

Ameyam

wingboz

You guys spend to much time trying to figure the different type of engines. I have an OS 75AX
on mine, it is all the engine you will need. SOOOOO, GET ONE, PUT IT IN YOUR PLANE. Then go out to the flying field and have some fun. In your spare time go to the model shop and buy
you something else to put together and fly!!!!!

wingboz

min$2crash

Well, Ameyam, its a tough call. Wingboz is right as usual, of course but you are asking a very specific question that I will try to answer.
Hopefully, based on experience, I expect that others will weigh in, especially if I am just full of it!
You also are expressing that your engine choices are limited in Mumbai and trying to understand the tradeoffs between powerplant and weight.
The bottom line is that even the phrase "3D" means different things to different people.
For some, its just something with plenty of thrust for hover, preferably snappy climb FROM hover.
For most, its that plus extreme throws on a light plane.
For others its just a little extra power with the occasional harrier and/or knife edge at low speed.

I am flying a Saito 91 (4 stroke) and am very pleased with my "glow foamy" target. People are amazed to see such a big plane fly so lightly. My dry weight is 6lb 11oz (3kg) which is on the light side from what I read here. At that weight I would rather remove another 3 oz than add for 3D. Light is good for most 3D manouvers- keeps it nice and slow, floaty. I find flat spins difficult but possible at that light weight & ~40 degree elevator throw. Mine never snaps out at that nice light <7lb weight, heaveir would snap out.
If I were to start over, the one thing that I'd change would be the quicker "spool up" of a 2 stroke engine. Sometimes "3D" becomes "oh crap" and you need a quick shot of thrust to save the plane. If you have any powerful little foamies, with ~100Watts/pound of power, you probably are spoiled like me and often will need "instant thrust". A 2 cycle engine will deliver this better. My Saito delivers about 760 watts of power, by the way- its 760W/Hp to convert and that Saito 91 is a ~1hp engine.
Don't trust me, poke around on the Profile Brotherhood (www dot ****************** dot com) site- I think that you will see that many of them prefer 2 stroke for the same reason- quick spoolup and response. A am concerned that a 120 4 stroke, especially a relatively heavy OS 120, may be just too much weight for good 3D, and 3D recovery from errors- less forgiving.
A good 75 size two stroke is good for basic aerobatics, but most are not enough for real 3D from what I read. So if I were to take my experience and everything that I have read here, I would vote for a 90-95 size 2 stroke. IF you do a 75 , do your homework and get a hot one, propped just right.
The heavier, bigger engines are a lot of unnecessary weight for this lightly built airframe. Most of the fuselage is very thin balsa, ~3/32" (~0.5mm thick), doubled in a few key places.
If you have the patience for break-in and tuning of a glow engine, and find the OS hard to get, consider that Supertigre has a 90 for a good price with good power to weight ratio and that (or any decent 2 stroke 90-100) is probably a good, if not ideal match for this plane with a 3D targeted flying style.

Back in the early pages of this thread(first 20 or so) you can find video of someone hovering the snot out of his Phoenix Extra on a 90 2 stroke for 5 minutes less than a meter off of the ground.
Only fast reserve power and a lot of practice can do that! Balls, money and craziness help, too!

PS if it is always really windy where you fly (>15-20 knots), go for the 120- you'll need the weight!

ameyam

Its a bit windy where I fly but I am heading for the 95 2c, especially since its lighter than even the 75 2c! OS of course, so I dont want any deadsticks. I found that on my colleague's Yak that the larger engine requires a larger fuel tank, so larger wheels. When he had a deadstick, the LG just broke off even though it has a much sturdier construction than my GP Reactor.

Ifs if doesnt have the power, I can put in the 120 later, its the same mounting size. I think my decision was whether to go glow or gas. BTW, any of these I will need to import so I can get either, even a SuperTigre

Ameyam

dmoody19

My Feedback: (24)

There is also the option of a RCGF 15 cc. Gas. I just bought one and it seems solid. I haven't gotten to run it yet on a plane but soon will. I am going to try it out on a p-40 I have and f it is good I will add another to my 330S.
Just an idea. Has anone else had one yet? Any good reports?

ameyam

I am told that RCGFs are heavy lazy engines for 3D. Again that may be a personal opinion. Anyway my eyes are set on a DLE 20. Now I have a few questions here

1) Can this airplane take a DLE20? Or will it just become too nose heavy?

2) Can I do away with the choke servo on the 20

3) Since I need to use two seperate batteries, should I use 2 of these for each ignition and RX

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXAAGM&P=6

4) Should I replace the stock wheels with

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXB910&P=7

This will also add ground clearance

5) Or should I drop everything and go for the 95ax instead?

In either case, I have to import the engine from Singapore so please suggest

Ameyam

dmoody19

My Feedback: (24)

The RCGF engine weighs in at 825 grams with ignition, motormounts and everything. O.S. 95 is 767 grams and a 91 four stroke (the 5 mfg's I checked) ranges from around 700 grams to almost 900 with pump. Not to mention the extra weight of the mounts which puts the RCGF 15 better than some and more than others but always in the right neighborhood. As I said I am new to 3d so i didn't want to throw anyone off track, just added a suggestion for another engine option. As for it being doggy I am not sure I agree just by watching it in different planes and you tube of course. I have seen it in extra 330's both the .40 and .60as well as yaks, Sukoh's etc. The vertical climb rates always seemed very good (sometimes climing straight up and out of site) to me but keep in mind I am new at this. Other comments will be appreciated. As for personal use I am going to either use this or a webra 120 on my phoenix and probably the 120 will win and this 15 on something else after I get it tested out on my p-40. I mention this one and the webra mainly because i have them already and no-one else had mentioned a 15cc gas as an option.
As for your questions I have to leave those up to others who are not new at this and have much more experience.
Good luck and please keep us informed on how it goes....... I have much to learn and these strings help alot......

Please keep on here and don't let this thread die. It has a wealth of information that I would like to see continue for us newbies. We need the advice and stuff.

min$2crash

Ameyam:
Here is that guy hovering the heck out of one with an O.S. 91FX 2 sroke.... O.S. 95AX should be plenty! I have not seen a comparison of a 91FX vs 95AXbut they shoud be close in power.
With the engine already up pretty high in rpm, you can see and hear when he needs a little boost and the engine responds very quickly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqSSZ...layer_embedded

The $ is about the same for the 95ax VS DLE20 but the 95AX is 3 oz lighter with muffler (84g). That's a lot of weight in this plane, I think.
On the other hand, you will probably pay much less in fuel-per-flight for gas vs glow fuel.
Gasoline is cheaper per gallon, AND provides more power per gallon.

ameyam

You arent helping me make a decision

Thats both points of view

Ameyam

min$2crash

You are correct. Welcome to a challenging hobby!

ameyam

Well, I read through the DLE manual. The throttle and choke horns are behind the engine. That compulsarily requires the push rods go through the centre of the fuse. Thing is, thats where the tank is in this model. In that config using the 20 in this model is out of question

Its 95ax or 120ax and I am leaning towards the 95 for its lighter weight. With respect to a 4C engine, I have a FS91SII operating on another airplane but it wont have enough power to 3D this airplane. Also, was wondering regarding the YS seties of engines (FZ110S and FZ115 size 4C). The OS FS110A ans OS110A-P are priced similar to the YS FZ 110P except that the YS is fuel injected and pumped. On our field pumped engines do not have a good reputation.

Sorry for meandering, just need to work all the options

Ameyam

sailpret

I recently got a deal too good to refuse on this plane. Right now I have little interest in doing 3d, just some easy pattern stuff. I have been going through the thread, but haven't made it through the whole thing yet. My question is (excuse me if it has already been asked) will a TT Pro 61 fly this plane? I have a new one sitting on the shelf, and can't afford something bigger at the moment. I want to put the 61 on and fly a while, then move up to a larger engine in the future. I know it says it is a 60-90 size plane, but all anyone here talks about are the larger engines. I guess I'm wondering if I can have a LITTLE fun with the 61?

ameyam

You can have a lot of fun with the 61. You just need some throttle management and vertical will not be unlimited.

Everyone here talks about larger engines because everyone wants to 3D the airplane. Basically, we all a little spoilt by power

Ameyam

nolefan1961

Wrangler1
I have buildt two of these planes and never had to do the mods you are doing. Sounds to me like you are compensating for a different problem.
I know of a few flaws with this plane. One known issue is that the plane CG's at 120mm but flys nose heavy and glide poorly. This is usually caused by the fuel tank being too far forward.
The two planes that I have buildt have had a mechanical stop infront of the fuel tank compartment. except that on my first extra it was not in place causing me to mount the fuel tank too far forward and causing a nose heavy flying condition with poor glide performance.
I later figured out that the fuel was to heavy as the planes CG was correct. So, I slid the tank back a few inches therefore correcting this problem. The factory should have this wooden peice in place to prevent the tank from going to the firewall, it should be @2 inches back.

You though, are having tail heavy issues. If the CG is at 120mm and balanced upside down and level, then the problem is most likely with the Ailerons being slightly in the up position next to the fuselodge. check for warpage. if so then have someone help you get it out. A simple test to see if this is the cause is to turn the clevisis in one complete turn. this should pull the ailerons down a tad. test fy the plane and see it the tail stops dropping when the engine is throttled back. do this as many times as needed. one turn at a time between flights.
of course ,first, undo all of of your mods such as down thrust. don't do any hot dogging until you are satisfied the plane flys right. Down Ailerons next to the fuselodge will act like down elevator. If the plane flys better after readjusting the ailerons, then, again check for warpage and correct centering. I accidently had this problem and found that one turn down on the aielron clevis corrected the tail dropping issue when the power was reduced.

A word of caution!!! do not adjust the ailerons too far down. Just enough to where you can tell that they are drooping a bit.

I hope this helps you out.

P.S. I am using a 2cycle engine which probably weighs conciderably less than your 4 stroke. therfore, nose weight should not be needed. Always move things around instead of adding weight. With a 2 stroke engine upto a Supertigre .90 the battery will mount on the battery tray with the cowling on. The battery will be mounted at the servo tray with the cowling off. This again tells me that you are not tail heavy with a 4 stroke engine. If anything, you are nose heavy already. That is why I am certain that improper aileron adjustment or elevator adjustment is your problem.