jstanton

My Feedback: (14)

I was having the same trouble with my stock landing gear.[:'(] I epoxied a 3/8" pieace of basswood over the stock gear mount after I removed the blind nuts. I than cut a DuBro Landing gear that is made out of fiberglass so it would fit into the extra 330 gear mount. I drilled and tape the basswood for some 4-40 break away plastic bolts. I no longer have landing gear problems. This Dubro Landing gear is plenty strong and it flexs some on hard landings and returns back to its normal shape Best gear for the money and for this Extra 330. Here is la ink to the gear. Good Luck.

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXNM65&P=7

Wrangler1

Hi, Jstanton. That's neat piece of landing gear, can you show me photos of yours and specially the type of bolts that you used.

Rgds.

jstanton

My Feedback: (14)

Rgds,

Here are a few pics of the DuBro Landing gear that I modified to fit the Extra 330. I also expoxied in a new piece of 3/8" basswood for a new gear mount. I than drilled and taped the new gear mount for two 4-40 plastic break away screws so the gear will break away on a hard landing and not tear out the mount.

Wrangler1

Great photos !!, thank you very much, i'll do the same to mine.

jwmav528

So Santa Claus brought me a DLE 20cc for Christmas.  I'm beginning to modify the firewall on mine to take this engine and I'll use that evolution 120nx for another project (probably a Sig Four Star 120 or something similar).  But before I do too much, I was hoping to get some tips from you guys about the modification.  Instead of mounting it in the stock location, I want to mount it such that the cylinder is straight down because it would be right behind the lower air inlet and I could just block off the upper air inlets so that I would have proper cooling.  I want input from you guys before I proceed too far because this is my first gasser.  Since this is the newer version with the boxed firewall similar to larger models, I am laminating the sides with 3/8" birch plywood and reinforcing with 1/4" triangle stock to accommodate the additional power and vibration (which I plan to minimize).  Let me know what you guys think and please provide any tips you may have to rotate the engine mount without moving the centerline of the engine.

min$2crash

Wrangler1:
Your gear isn't the problem- the wood is failing from what I see. That has two factors: the wooden box strength, and the loads of a hard landing. Plastic, CF and fiberglass gear reduce some of the shock but do not actually absorb significant energy when they flex. They rebound and give it all right back to the airframe. I prefer bent metal gear on a hard landing, as a punishment for one, and because all of the energy that went into the permanent bend of the gear was NOT delivered to the airframe.
However, to answer your question, if you want stronger aluminum gear to reduce the bending that I see in those photos, Maynardrupp was good enough to get TnT to make a custom gear shaped for this plane, a $40 bolt-in replacement. We talked about the bending of the gear here on page 50 of this forum 2 years ago:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_47...50/key_/tm.htm
If you want to get these, and have the new kit, you may want to check the dimensions with TnT to make sure that they did not change hole locations or width with the new ARF design.
TnT designed this custom gear for this plane, made from fully heat treated aircraft aluminum. I prefer the bent gear- just unbolt the gear, straighten it out with a vise, and bolt it back on in 5 minutes.
We have a vise at the airfield so this is a ritual for me every 10-20 flights. I just bend the gear "vertically" buy hand and then use an adjustable wrench to take twist out, and "steer the wheels" straight again while the gear is in the vise.

BOX STRENGTH:
As for the wood, first, it is good to minimize the extra load from the bolts, by putting them in with Loctite or (my preference) white glue. You can always loosen white glue with a little water or heat.
With this insurance against bolt loosening, you can just snug the 3 bolts lightly and not add all of the extra stress to the landing gear's box structure from excess tightening. I switched T-nuts from the
(4mm?) metric ones that came with the ARF to 10-24 nuts so that I can now use aluminum bolts for the front two holes and nylon 10-24 for the back hole.

My buddy who flies IMAC passed along to me that he always beefs up the landing gear box on his 30%-60% gasser planes. I took his advice when building my Phoenix and put a piece of ~75mm long aileron stock (~35mm x 6mm) on the "floor" of the fuselage butted up against the back landing gear box inside the fuselage- full width. It tapers away from the box, distributing the load.
Then I also added some modified triangle stock (changed the 90° angle to a 45° angle to match the 25mm wide fuselage "chamfer" which connects the floor of the fuselage to the vertical sides. Two of these on each side take the load up from the weaker floor pan of the fuselage to the stronger (doubled) vertical sides. These butt right up against the back of the landing gear box.

LANDING LOADS:
My plane has a CG at ~125mm and tends to lift its nose (or sag its tail, depending on how you look at it) and stall when I slow it down enough to land without bouncing. I like the CG that far back for better inverted, knife edge, and hover performance. I am still getting used to adding down elevator on landing- very unusual for me! So in order to overcome the natural tendency for a tail heavy plane to sag its tail as you slow down, I found airbrakes to be a big help. How do you get airbrakes on an ARF with big "barn door" ailerons? Read on....
I have both my ailerons go up 10-15mm for landing on a switch. This is also called "flaperon airbrake" mode. With this setting I can easily land my <7lb plane (yes, < 3.18kg!) without bouncing because the area of the ailerons is no longer a lifting surface so it lands faster and the tail doesn't sag down at landing speeds. I use 10mm on light winds, 15mm on windy days, and no airbrakes when the winds are calm. Works great for avoiding that stall just before landing that really bounces the gear hard. When I forget to hit the switch on an aborted landing and go-around, the plane still flies just fine with the airbrakes on, just needs a click or two more throttle. My engine is a Saito 91 four stroke. I hope that some of this helps you.

Happy Landings!
Dave

dmoody19

My Feedback: (24)

I think you will find that the DLE 20 has less power than the 120 2 stroker so going overboard on reinforcement is a touchy thing. How much before it is just too much and just adding unnecessary weight to it? Just a thought. IF I am backwards please let me know. I may be changing my Webra 120 for something similar to your DLE 20. My webra is defiantly overkill on this plane. I am thinking maybe there would be a better use for the webra in a bigger plane. Adding reinforcement for the mount is a good thing of course. Just be careful to not kill the balance with too much up front.
If I remember correctly the DLE 20 should put out approx the same power as an .80 or .90 two cycle nitro?
Have fun and let us see pics along your way!

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
ACTS 13:38,39 great news for everyone!!! lol   34 planes in my corral and growing!!! :-)

reaaz

JWMAV... I also have a DLE20 (in a bigger airplane) and also have a YS91AC installed in my Phoneix extra...
Presently, to keep the revs within limit of the YS I'm running a 15x10 prop on it, it barely has enough ground clearance with this prop, so if your putting in the DLE20 (which loves a 17" prop or bigger) you will have ground clearance/strike issues with it!

So see if you can find a 15" prop that can keep that engine in rev limits or a 3 blade prop or maybe a higher stance landing gear.

But generally I think (after running in the DLe in a bigger plane (120 sized velox) it will probably weigh in around 9Lbs + which is well above the ideal 7Lbs for this airframe.
So lighten up where ever you can (remove the heavy stock Pilot, use carbon wing tube, carbon landing gear (20cc size landing gear from hobby king is a slap in fit) & be prepared to get a heavy batter pack. I made a bulkhead shaped flat ply plate to zip tie my battery on & this bulkhead is attached to the fomer located deep in the tail "boom"

And thats just with the YS914banger, this DLE is a heavier brute!

But that said, If you do get it working it will be VERY VERY fast.. but don't get to slow it will snap on the turns with all that extra weight

Wrangler1

Thank you very much min$2crash for all your comments, i'll check the box were the landing gear is attached. At this moment i didn't start the repairs looking for different options that i can use. I order the Du-Bro super strenght landing gear and also i'm fixing the original one so i can choose what to do when i got both in hand.

Also, i will put a film of cork between the base and the landing gear so it can minimize the hit of a hard landing and move a little bit. I hope this idea works

randallerkelens

I also used the DuBro gear and cut it just like that.. no problems since.. I dumped a bunch of epoxy in around the existing gear.. to strengthen.

BilleFly

I have the Older version ; originally it was set-up with a Hacker on 6s Lipo & the fire-wall started
to give-way on the first flight.
So i cut the lip off the gussets that held-in the original & popped the ply off the front.

GOOD thing i did That !!
There was hardly "Any" glue holding it in.

I placed 3/8" gussets behind and re-epoxyed the ply back, Then i wrapped 4oz glass around and
back to about 2" down the sides of the fuce.

It handled the power Gust GREAT !!
Would hover at about 1/2 power.

THEN
i purchased a DLE-20 and a, (DU-BRO) vibration Reducing Motor Mount
cat # 684 .75 to 1.06 2-cclcle engines.

The Hole where the Hacker went through the fire-wall, gave just enough clearance
for the choke to open where the carb set . I placed a thin 1/16 ply behind the hole, to keep
gas from entering the fuse & epoxied it for a sealer.

My engine sets inverted and a hole in the cowell was cut for even more air on the cylinder-head.
================================================== ========================
On the Landing gear :
Purchase a length of aluminum 1.1/2" wide and 1/8" thick.
Use 6061-T6 or 7075and NOTHING ELSE !!!!!!, (( !!!! ))) (.)
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/
and Bend your own on a vice ; it's EASY !!!

Bille

ameyam

I have been flying quite some time with the DLE20 on this airplane. Mine is 4Kg without fuel. The DLE20 makes it madly nose heavy, I had to add quite a bit pf tail weight. It flies OK but I havent been able to 3D her yet

I encountered a wierd problem with mine. After a mid air with a foamy which was promptly turned to mincemeat, we noticed that if you grap the airplane on its side by the wing and shake it, the wing moves with respect to the fuse. It is not due to the mid air- I have seen it before as well. Someone commented that the airplane jinks suddenly to one side during landing which may be due to this. That guy has the smaller Yak from Phoenix with the same problem. I have seen this jinking a few times as well but always thought it was due to the wind and sometimes it makes me quite uncomfortable. I havent got my landings nailed down yet though so I am not sure. From the time I purchased the airplane, there has always been a gap between wing and fuse at the leading edge and I have come to the conclusion that all of this was due to a poorly fitting wing assembly. Anyone out there has seen this problem?

Ameyam

BilleFly

If ya grab the wing and move it ; does the fuse move With it ?

If Not, ( and the interface between the Fuse & the wing looks Solid
then the First thing i'd do is what nrad2000 suggests :
 
I Also like a stable aircraft !!
Usually Ya can move the CG forward a bit Then add 25% - 30% extra through's to the control-surfaces.
Next bump the EXPO up to near 80% on high rates to make it manageable again.

I Totally agree with nrad2000 but add the extra survo travel & Expo.

My planes usually tumble like a top but recover Really Fast !!  A tail heavy plane will NOT recover
as quickley, and that's the part i Don't like. Even Landing is more manageable ...

Bille

ameyam

Thats the point, the wing moves relative to the fuse. Like I said, now of the screws are loose, I feel its just a bad assembly. There is a gap between the wing and fuse at the LE from the beginning and there is really no way to fix it. I will psot pics a bit later

Ameyam

dmoody19

My Feedback: (24)

Brother there has to be something loose in order for the wing to have movement when nothing else is moving with it. What about the tube itself? Maybe loose on that side and you only notice it when there is wing weight added to it? Whatever it is,  you are looking at an upcoming disaster with the plane if you don't get it figured out. I remember when you got the plane and then had to put it up because of the upcoming weather systems/seasons. Maybe something broke loose when storing? Considering the lack of glue in major areas of the plane maybe it is just another area where Phoenix failed to do a good job?
Good luck with it friend.



Acts 13:38,39 ... great news for everyone..................

BilleFly

YEA That gap shouldn't be there ; maybe the ply that holds the T-nuts in the wing is loose.
That would be an easy Fix.

The First thing i do when getting an ARF is to pull the covering off & check all the glue-joints
and wrap 3oz finishing glass in all main points. Besides, there's a real specific color pattern
i can see well. Transparent RED with a White front  & Leading Edge.

My plane went South of 4K also, & i think it's a bit Heavy for this model.
One solution may be to cut a new wing or perhaps first try adding 1/2" to the ailerons.

I had a guy measure his Phoenix Models Edge 540 and it appears to have near 972 sq inches
on the wings NOT including the fuse.
SO maybe bring the Extra up to 800sq inches would do it for the weight of the DLE-20 ?
Right now i get 700sq inches for Just the wings.

OR I was Thinking of just puting the DLE-20 in the New Phoenix Models Edge 540 .91-1.20
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...6#post20630698

ameyam

Whoa, wait hold on. Maybe you hadnt seen my pics of how I reinforced my airplane. I have put epoxy and tristock everywhere I can reach inside the fuse. The inside of the fuse is actually painted with epoxy, even the wing tube sleeve inside. I didnt do the inside of the wing though, I cant reach there. It will be more clear from the pics. You can see the gap. Its small but its there. The ribs are true straight by the way, the fuse is curved just there. I may end up running thin epoxy inside the wing, atleast upto the wing tube sleeve, but thats for another day. I dont have a workshop in my apartment, the living room turns into one when I work on my airplanes and since I am not prone to getting up before I complete my work, no matter how late it is, my mom tends to sprout horns

Ameyam

dmoody19

My Feedback: (24)

Sorry Ameyam was not insulting you at all. I know you worked hard on the plane. But there is a problem somewhere or the gap and looseness would not be there. I just don't want you to be flying and lose the wing and kill the plane or accidentally harm someone on the sidelines.

ameyam

Thats why I am asking if there is some way to fix this

Ameyam

BilleFly

Your going to have-to remove the covering on the first two bays of the wing
and look in & see.

Personally, i Always remove the covering on the wings for an ARF & glass
the top shear-web to the Bottom shear-web, with 3oz glass on a +- 45deg
fiber orientation.

Then Recover the wings with Transparent Red over the open bays and White
on the Leading Edge. This combination can be seen on those cloudy low
light days.

Bille

min$2crash

Ameyam, if the wing is bolted to the fuse sides as when it was new, and the wing still can shift, I would suggest that you take the wing off and see if the tube can move relative to the fuselage, indicating that perhaps the cardboard tube that the aluminum wing tube is in has come loose while eating that foamy :7).
Good job eating that foamy, BTW.

Barring any movement there, if the wing bolts seem to snug up tightly, check to see if the fuselage side has a weakness in the wing root bearing area, maybe a crack or something. If the foamy hit the wing near the tip from the front, any fuselage damage is most likely behind the tube, about where the wing stops bearing against the fuselage. That is very light balsa, only a couple of mm thick total, so it doesn't take much to crack it. You may not see the crack easily thru the epoxy, but get a good light and mirror down in there and maybe you can find something. Is "jinking" a side to side motion, or front to rear, or up and down?

BilleFly

I'M WITH min$2crash   on that one !

If there's damage in the Fuse, you'd see it !!
It's probably IN the wing.
Stick the wing tube In the wing & Move it. It it Ain't "Solid" then Ya gotta
fix the place where it  goes in the wing itself. The cardboard is actually
part of the wing spar & Must be solid or you'll Loose your airplane.

If Ya lived in Las Vegas, i'd fix it for Ya for a few beers.
I beefed mine up, when i recovered my wings.

DO "NOT" FLY IT, till it's Fixed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bille

ameyam

The fuse side is not few mm thick. I installed additional scrap ply from my US40+ build and then epoxy painted the entilre inside. These ply formers are 3-5mm thick, I am at work now, I will see if I have pics in my phone or get those when I get home.

There is a possibility that the cardboard tube inside the wing is loose. I am thinking painting the inside of the wing with epoxy without taking the coveing off- the covering is fallying off in pieces already and trying to remove it will make a mess. If I add excess epoxy with filler around the cardboard tube, whatever is loose will get glued back in.

The jinking is in that it seems to drop one wing and then the fuse moves in that direction. My aileron hinges are already sealed. Thats why I felt it was an issue with the gusty wind

Ameyam

BilleFly

Have you ever Monocoted an airplane before ?
You can do it with an iron, nothing else needed but time .
AND
It's FUN !!

I think your making a "BIG" mistake, by Not riping the covering off your wing(s) !!!

Bille

dmoody19

My Feedback: (24)

BIllie has to be right if the paper tube is not messed up. There is nothing else that can cause this movement except wing structures. He is right also that covering can be a blast and that way you can be sure they assembled the wing correctly with good wood and good glue joints. I lost a p-47 a while back that was a 72"  arf. I lost it because they used crap wood in the assembly and when flying the wing just fell apart inside. I didn't see it because I took for granted that since it looked fantastic that is was good to go. Now I grounded all my arfs and am only flying the planes that I put together from scratch or kits so I know they are right. In the mean time I am taking the wings apart as time permits and I have to say that what I find is scarey. Even the planes with fiberglass fuselages have problems with glue on the formers in the fuselage.  The wings look nice but when you wiggle parts you find they are not attached well at all. I am re-gluing every part in them and using good epoxy where necessary. Especially around the mount areas. I have 33 planes and half are arfs from different mfg's and none are great. Sad thing for planes [] . Anyway all you have is a paper tube, the wing tube and its mounting areas. It has to be in those somewhere.  Good Luck with finding it, make it a fun project.