Phoenix Extra 330S 60-90 Size
02-25-2012, 09:10 AM
#1852
RE: Pheonix Extra 330S 60-90 Size
I think that it is good for the environment to use the remaining scraps you have for repairs......even if it DOES look a little more Rusky now!
On to suggestions: As far as Billiefly's suggestion on putting the flaperons down, to each his own especially with different weights. A heavier build, like 9lbs may well need the extra lift of flaperons down. But there is a down side to this- these are not flaps, at the root of the wing, but flaperons, all the way out to the tip. I learned from cmoulder (thanks if U are still out there!) on this forum in 2010 that flaperons down actually tends to increase tip stalling as the plane slows down. By that same token Flaperons UP 10-15mm (3/8" to 5/8") significantly reduces tip stall and speeds up the landings.
On my build, which is <7lb all up (very very light) flaperons UP for landings has greatly improved landing characteristics. I have a 2 position switch at ~10 and 15mm UP from neutral for flaperons. That actually makes them Spoilerons, if you want to get technical.
I obviously have no need for flaperons DOWN at that light weight and low wing loading. The problem that I had with low wing loading (and tail heavy CG for KE, harrier, and hover) was that there was no margin on landing speed. By that I mean that it would either bounce, i.e. too fast, or if I showed down a hair more she put her nose up as I slowed down, and tended to tip stall just before landing (wallow, kind of). This was bearable if there was no wind, but wallowing in a cross wind tends to make splinters! Whether I had neutral flaperons or flaperons down, it was a real P.I.T.A.
Now, with spoilerons at 10mm, its beautiful. I can come in at a wide range of (slightly higher) speeds and it stays dead straight for me, no wallowing. Puffy crosswinds are a breeze, no pun intended. It still lands slower than most trainers, at 10mm UP spoilerons, and if I blow the landing and go around without kicking the spoilerons back to neutral, I still have plenty of lift to climb out. I would imagine that this would be a good approach for an 8 lb plane, and maybe flaps as you get over 9lb. Once in a while if it is calm I land without spoilerons and it reminds me what a B____ it used to be!
Just my thoughts and experience, wheels down in any case!
On to suggestions: As far as Billiefly's suggestion on putting the flaperons down, to each his own especially with different weights. A heavier build, like 9lbs may well need the extra lift of flaperons down. But there is a down side to this- these are not flaps, at the root of the wing, but flaperons, all the way out to the tip. I learned from cmoulder (thanks if U are still out there!) on this forum in 2010 that flaperons down actually tends to increase tip stalling as the plane slows down. By that same token Flaperons UP 10-15mm (3/8" to 5/8") significantly reduces tip stall and speeds up the landings.
On my build, which is <7lb all up (very very light) flaperons UP for landings has greatly improved landing characteristics. I have a 2 position switch at ~10 and 15mm UP from neutral for flaperons. That actually makes them Spoilerons, if you want to get technical.
I obviously have no need for flaperons DOWN at that light weight and low wing loading. The problem that I had with low wing loading (and tail heavy CG for KE, harrier, and hover) was that there was no margin on landing speed. By that I mean that it would either bounce, i.e. too fast, or if I showed down a hair more she put her nose up as I slowed down, and tended to tip stall just before landing (wallow, kind of). This was bearable if there was no wind, but wallowing in a cross wind tends to make splinters! Whether I had neutral flaperons or flaperons down, it was a real P.I.T.A.
Now, with spoilerons at 10mm, its beautiful. I can come in at a wide range of (slightly higher) speeds and it stays dead straight for me, no wallowing. Puffy crosswinds are a breeze, no pun intended. It still lands slower than most trainers, at 10mm UP spoilerons, and if I blow the landing and go around without kicking the spoilerons back to neutral, I still have plenty of lift to climb out. I would imagine that this would be a good approach for an 8 lb plane, and maybe flaps as you get over 9lb. Once in a while if it is calm I land without spoilerons and it reminds me what a B____ it used to be!
Just my thoughts and experience, wheels down in any case!
02-25-2012, 09:26 AM
#1853
RE: Pheonix Extra 330S 60-90 Size
PS, Wrangler, if that's your first covering job- you are a natural. It is a tough skill to master, especially on light (flimsy) structures like the belly of this bad boy. You pull too hard here, it wrinkles there because the structure gives so easily. So beautiful job, kudos, dude! Go easy on yourself, the first few won't be perfect, and neither will the last!!!!
The most useful hint that I got for covering was tack at low temperature and go for a light even stretch with these tack points before shrinking at hi temp. You need to let the iron warm up a while so that it is evenly andconsistently hot. You do well to use a low heat first, ~1/3 of most irons' knobs, testing with scraps to set the iron temp to where it just tacks the covering to a chunk of balsa, so its removed with the iron and tweezers if you need to reposition it. Then you begin by tacking the diagonal points at light tension (fingers only) front left, rear right, front right, rear left, and then proceed to do the 1/2 way points between these diagonal corner tacks on all 4 sides, in opposition- front center, then rear center, then RHS center, then LHS center. Then you do the points 1/2 way between these, again in opposition, etc until your tack marks are <1" apart. Finally, turn up the heat a tad, say ~1/2 the knob range and iron the periphery completely and rub lightly right behind the iron with a cloth or glove to spread& seat the glue while its hot. Last comes shrink, but it should be almost wrinkle free before you crank up the heat for shrinking... or it will just sag in the sun if you have to shrink it smooth. If you get sags in the sun, they come out with an iron, forever. This ARF came with a lot of sun sagging as you probably noticed!
I prefer Ultracote a.k.a. Oracover because the glue and color are separate. This allows you to 'redo' stuff without getting the color peeling off when you remove a corner or other tack point to reset and remove a wrinkle.
The most useful hint that I got for covering was tack at low temperature and go for a light even stretch with these tack points before shrinking at hi temp. You need to let the iron warm up a while so that it is evenly andconsistently hot. You do well to use a low heat first, ~1/3 of most irons' knobs, testing with scraps to set the iron temp to where it just tacks the covering to a chunk of balsa, so its removed with the iron and tweezers if you need to reposition it. Then you begin by tacking the diagonal points at light tension (fingers only) front left, rear right, front right, rear left, and then proceed to do the 1/2 way points between these diagonal corner tacks on all 4 sides, in opposition- front center, then rear center, then RHS center, then LHS center. Then you do the points 1/2 way between these, again in opposition, etc until your tack marks are <1" apart. Finally, turn up the heat a tad, say ~1/2 the knob range and iron the periphery completely and rub lightly right behind the iron with a cloth or glove to spread& seat the glue while its hot. Last comes shrink, but it should be almost wrinkle free before you crank up the heat for shrinking... or it will just sag in the sun if you have to shrink it smooth. If you get sags in the sun, they come out with an iron, forever. This ARF came with a lot of sun sagging as you probably noticed!
I prefer Ultracote a.k.a. Oracover because the glue and color are separate. This allows you to 'redo' stuff without getting the color peeling off when you remove a corner or other tack point to reset and remove a wrinkle.
02-25-2012, 11:03 PM
#1854
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RE: Pheonix Extra 330S 60-90 Size
ORIGINAL: min$2crash
...
...But there is a down side to this- these are not flaps, at the root of the wing, but flaperons, all the way out to the tip. I learned from cmoulder (thanks if U are still out there!) on this forum in 2010 that flaperons down actually tends to increase tip stalling as the plane slows down.
By that same token Flaperons UP 10-15mm (3/8" to 5/8") significantly reduces tip stall and speeds up the landings.
...
...But there is a down side to this- these are not flaps, at the root of the wing, but flaperons, all the way out to the tip. I learned from cmoulder (thanks if U are still out there!) on this forum in 2010 that flaperons down actually tends to increase tip stalling as the plane slows down.
By that same token Flaperons UP 10-15mm (3/8" to 5/8") significantly reduces tip stall and speeds up the landings.
Flaps up reduce Lift and Speed-Up the landing, as well as Reduce the tendency to tip-stall.
Flaps down increase lift, (Lift "IS" Drag) , they Slow down the landing and Increas the tendency to tip-stall.
SO Ya Gotta :
**Push the stick Forward to keep up the speed, (or sub-trim it in when flaps are activated) & count on the
drag to slow Ya down.
** Add these Mylar winglets,which will help to keep the air attached to the wing-tip, and reduce the tendancy
for the wing to tip-stall. They also aide in helping to keep the airplane tracking in a streight line. Thay effectivly
kill the wing-tip vortex at the expense of a bit of drag; but Who really cares when i got a DLE-20 up front that's
capable of puting out 14lb of thrust ?
Like -min$2crash said : " To each his own" !!
Kinda like the stock covering job ; some can Deal with it, & like me : ((Some Can't)).
Bille
02-26-2012, 09:02 AM
#1855
RE: Pheonix Extra 330S 60-90 Size
Billiefly;
Yep, I'd guess those wingtip fences postpone stall quite well... good trick. Thanks for sharing that idea with photos. You posted that a few months ago, right?
I may have to try those- when I pack up to go, those could be in the way, maybe I'll use some of those little rare earth magnets.
Coupling the rudder to the ailerons is a big plus as well, so that you still have roll control when approaching stall at low speeds.
I've always heard that the last effective control as you enter a stall is the rudder. I always forget that in the thrill of the moment! Splat.
I am flying in a relatively windy area, with lots of cross-gusting due to patches of trees. I am often using the rudder with counter aileron just to land straight due to strong crosswinds.
Do you find the rudder coupling a problem in cross-wind landings?
Yep, I'd guess those wingtip fences postpone stall quite well... good trick. Thanks for sharing that idea with photos. You posted that a few months ago, right?
I may have to try those- when I pack up to go, those could be in the way, maybe I'll use some of those little rare earth magnets.
Coupling the rudder to the ailerons is a big plus as well, so that you still have roll control when approaching stall at low speeds.
I've always heard that the last effective control as you enter a stall is the rudder. I always forget that in the thrill of the moment! Splat.
I am flying in a relatively windy area, with lots of cross-gusting due to patches of trees. I am often using the rudder with counter aileron just to land straight due to strong crosswinds.
Do you find the rudder coupling a problem in cross-wind landings?
02-26-2012, 10:57 AM
#1856
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RE: Pheonix Extra 330S 60-90 Size
ORIGINAL: min$2crash
Billiefly;
Yep, I'd guess those wingtip fences postpone stall quite well...
Billiefly;
Yep, I'd guess those wingtip fences postpone stall quite well...
made with 10mill Mylar. The mesurment across the back is 2 1/4inches, (57.15mm) then
they taper down to the width of the airfoil at tha thickest part.
IREALLY "Like" your magnet trick !! Would Ya please post t pic when figured out ?
ORIGINAL: min$2crash
I've always heard that the last effective control as you enter a stall is the rudder.
...
Do you find the rudder coupling a problem in cross-wind landings?
I've always heard that the last effective control as you enter a stall is the rudder.
...
Do you find the rudder coupling a problem in cross-wind landings?
Another Really Cool benifate from the
wing-tip gates is that they increase the efficency of the ailerons thus giving them control
much further into the stall. For This reason i add more control travel with the servo then
add EXPO to give me a nice low stress place in the center, ((kinda like flying with trim tabs)).
I do cut down the travel adjust for Low rates but the EXPO stays.
ON the cross-control thing :
You CAN do that for cross-wind landings just like normal, but now everytime you adjust
the alerons, you Also get a Rudder adjustment along with it, without even thinging about it.
Bille
02-26-2012, 10:59 AM
#1857
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RE: Pheonix Extra 330S 60-90 Size
I did some monokoting on my model as well. I used scrap Topflite kote I had left from a previous build. The LHS has old Oracover and it seperates (the pigment and clear polyester) after ironing so I gave up on using the stock they have. My problem is that, like the stuff the LHS has in stock, the kote on the model is also delaminating. I really dont know how long it will last and what I am going to do subsequently. The one on the model is also Oracover, by the way.
Anyway, the technique I use when covening open bays is to set my iron to about 75-80% of the dial, let it warm up and then tack down everything, staring with one end first and then strech and then tack down the other. Then I iron down the entire piece starting from one end and move to the other end on the kote. Once the entire wooden parts are ironed down, I then use the iron itself set to max or a heat gun and shrink the part in between the bays. I use the same technique for sheeting. If you get wrinkles, heat the same gently with a heatgun or the iron, pat wown by hand using a glove or just some cotton cloth between the hand and cover so as not to get burnt and then let it cool on its own. Wrinkles go away automatically this way. Dont over do it as covering usually splits at the folds. If you have air bubbles between the sheeting and covering, use a safety pin or needle to poke a hole in one corner and iron down towards that corner from the opposite side of the bubble so that the air escapes through the hole
I do have a problem with my preironed covering coming off with time. Does gas engine exhaust have a negative effect on monokote?
Regarding the flaperon issue, my observation is you need to keep some speed on approach and this airplane pretty much lands itself. Mine is heavy, nearly 4kg (9lb) though, I am not using flaps
Ameyam
Anyway, the technique I use when covening open bays is to set my iron to about 75-80% of the dial, let it warm up and then tack down everything, staring with one end first and then strech and then tack down the other. Then I iron down the entire piece starting from one end and move to the other end on the kote. Once the entire wooden parts are ironed down, I then use the iron itself set to max or a heat gun and shrink the part in between the bays. I use the same technique for sheeting. If you get wrinkles, heat the same gently with a heatgun or the iron, pat wown by hand using a glove or just some cotton cloth between the hand and cover so as not to get burnt and then let it cool on its own. Wrinkles go away automatically this way. Dont over do it as covering usually splits at the folds. If you have air bubbles between the sheeting and covering, use a safety pin or needle to poke a hole in one corner and iron down towards that corner from the opposite side of the bubble so that the air escapes through the hole
I do have a problem with my preironed covering coming off with time. Does gas engine exhaust have a negative effect on monokote?
Regarding the flaperon issue, my observation is you need to keep some speed on approach and this airplane pretty much lands itself. Mine is heavy, nearly 4kg (9lb) though, I am not using flaps
Ameyam
02-26-2012, 11:10 AM
#1858
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RE: Pheonix Extra 330S 60-90 Size
I tried all of them and Monokote seams to hold up Best for me ...
Placing Monokote over other brands, didn't seam to work too well because the
glue in monokote has a higher sticking temprature, so the other brands kinda mealt
first.
http://www.monokote.com/
ameyam when my Extra was battery powered with the Hacker; it was 9lb also.
The mods i suggested above helped GREATLY for my landings !!
Bille
Placing Monokote over other brands, didn't seam to work too well because the
glue in monokote has a higher sticking temprature, so the other brands kinda mealt
first.
http://www.monokote.com/
ameyam when my Extra was battery powered with the Hacker; it was 9lb also.
The mods i suggested above helped GREATLY for my landings !!
Bille
02-26-2012, 06:26 PM
#1859
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RE: Pheonix Extra 330S 60-90 Size
Yes, BilleFly. I was asking for this detail for a long time. I too have a DLE20 upfront and with the reinforcement to the fuse its over 4Kgs. I will try out the stall fences a bit alater after I am able to fly comfortable so I can feel the difference after adding them
Ameyam
Ameyam
03-03-2012, 05:27 PM
#1861
RE: Pheonix Extra 330S 60-90 Size
I was flying my Phoenix Extra 330s with a Magnum 108a in it using a APC 16x6 prop. It was a great combo and flew very well until I did something really dumb[:@] I changed the prop to a 15x8 APC and thighten it down finger tight to line the prop up with and compression stroke. I got distracted by my Dog who wanted to help. I than put the spinner on and went to the field to flying. The Magnum started right up and I was opening up the throttle to make sure top end was good with the new prop. All of a sudden the whole prop and spinner came flying off the plane and the engine went runnig wild until I finaly got the engine killed. After that the Magnum never rain right again. I had a new ASP S91A at home that I have put into the Extra and I hope it will work out to be a good combo. The ASP S91A seems to rev higher than the old Magnum 108 so maybe it will be a good engine
03-06-2012, 02:35 PM
#1862
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RE: Pheonix Extra 330S 60-90 Size
ORIGINAL: jstanton
...
It was a great combo and flew very well until I did something really dumb
...
...
It was a great combo and flew very well until I did something really dumb
...
WE : "Live & Learn".
It All makes for an interesting life !!
Bille
03-06-2012, 02:57 PM
#1863
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RE: Pheonix Extra 330S 60-90 Size
My Extra completly referbished :
3oz glass on fire-wall and landing gear.
Made the tail removeable.
Wing gates , a MUST HAVE !!
Sheeted the LE bays with 3/32 balsa & capped the ribbs with same. (( made it fly WAY better )) !
Fired the Dude pilot & replaced him with a Blond Winch !!
Added an Ultra IBEC ignition battery eliminator circut ,from Tech-aero, set to 5.3v , ( has a KILL switch for ignition ))
Added a Tech- aero Design BEC, set to 5.8v .
Added an LCD from above to notify me my Receiver was ON, (Dummy Me can't remember to turn it Off) !
Polished my DLE-20 and made it feel NEW .
LI-POLLY Battery, made "TWO" for extended fly time but only Need one to power receiver Add ignition.
Total ready to fly weight is 3,800g , ( 8.36 lb ) ; dropped about 1/2 lb & got 14lb of Thrust from my DLE-20.
Bille
3oz glass on fire-wall and landing gear.
Made the tail removeable.
Wing gates , a MUST HAVE !!
Sheeted the LE bays with 3/32 balsa & capped the ribbs with same. (( made it fly WAY better )) !
Fired the Dude pilot & replaced him with a Blond Winch !!
Added an Ultra IBEC ignition battery eliminator circut ,from Tech-aero, set to 5.3v , ( has a KILL switch for ignition ))
Added a Tech- aero Design BEC, set to 5.8v .
Added an LCD from above to notify me my Receiver was ON, (Dummy Me can't remember to turn it Off) !
Polished my DLE-20 and made it feel NEW .
LI-POLLY Battery, made "TWO" for extended fly time but only Need one to power receiver Add ignition.
Total ready to fly weight is 3,800g , ( 8.36 lb ) ; dropped about 1/2 lb & got 14lb of Thrust from my DLE-20.
Bille
03-07-2012, 11:45 AM
#1865
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RE: Pheonix Extra 330S 60-90 Size
ORIGINAL: jstanton
...
...I would really like to see a video of your Extra in flight
...
...I would really like to see a video of your Extra in flight
When i said i dropped a 1/2 lb ; it was from when it was electric with a Hacker & a 6,000mah 22v battery.
It flew OK with the gates. Seriously though ; sheeting the wing with 3/32 balsa & capping the ribs is
what really made the BIG difference.
See the thickness on the TE of the aileron in this shot ; i can add about (.75) inch to the TE which is
28.5 inches long. that works out to about 42 sq inches more aria on the wing, all of it on the aileron.
SO it will be a tad Less wing-loading and control Better ; also my servos Can handle it.
Probably gonna Do that. If it doesn't work then I'll hot-wire a New wind, same proportions on cord thickness % as now
but with with about ((100 to 150sq inches)) more aria.
33.33 % of it on the LE and 66.66% on the TE from the stock wing. I will Keep the stock span.
If i Like that then I'll mold the entire airplane, and build one from mostly ALL carbon ; which should
bring the weight down to somewhere in the 7lb range.
** one would be Gas !
** one would be Electric !! (smile)
I Really REALLY Like this size airplane. When i take the Tail feathers off & Landing-gear along with the wing's -
the package gets kinda "Small" .
With This motor i don't really NEED much runway to take-off, just Land.
That's Why i want the Lighter wing-loading.
NITRO is so expensive, i won't even consider it ; that's why
i Like my DLE-20 with it's 14lb thrust and (mid-grade) unleaded gas price !!!!
Bille
03-07-2012, 12:34 PM
#1866
My Feedback: (24)
RE: Pheonix Extra 330S 60-90 Size
Bille.... great job on the rework. I have a silly question. lol You have it hanging by the ac/heat vent in your celing... will that cause issues with the covering and warping in the long run? I really don't know but is a possibility? Have fun flying!!!
______________________________-
Dave
______________________________-
Dave
03-07-2012, 01:02 PM
#1867
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RE: Pheonix Extra 330S 60-90 Size
ORIGINAL: dmoody19
... I have a silly question. lol You have it hanging by the ac/heat vent in your celing... will that cause issues with the covering and warping in the long run?
...
______________________________-
Dave
... I have a silly question. lol You have it hanging by the ac/heat vent in your celing... will that cause issues with the covering and warping in the long run?
...
______________________________-
Dave
With a well sealed and heat-shrunk MonoKote job NO !!!
It gets 112 deg in the shade here in Vegas, so heat is not a
problem for MonoKote ...
Air-conditioning -What is THAT ??
I'm a : "Desert Dog" ; like it Best when it's a 100 !!
When i Kite-board at Mohave, the beach is HOT ; some complain
that it burns their Feet. I have NO idea what there talking about ? HA !!
Bille
03-07-2012, 02:23 PM
#1868
My Feedback: (24)
RE: Pheonix Extra 330S 60-90 Size
LOL I'm in Florida and hate the heat. Looking forward to moving to Colorado or maybe flagstaff area. Somewhere where I can snowmobile again one day and not be sweating all the time. Need dry climate again. I did used to hang in the desert in California around a little place called borrego springs. Was great days. In the Navy but time off riding dirt bikes naked in the desert while my wife kept telling me we were nuts lol...
Going flyin in the morning I hope. Weather been too windy to do so lately. I think I am going to pull my webra 1.20 and put on either a 30 cc gas or 1.25 golden knight saito I have laying around.
Have a good one.
Going flyin in the morning I hope. Weather been too windy to do so lately. I think I am going to pull my webra 1.20 and put on either a 30 cc gas or 1.25 golden knight saito I have laying around.
Have a good one.
03-10-2012, 07:34 PM
#1870
RE: Pheonix Extra 330S 60-90 Size
Just finished repairing my Phoenix Extra 330S and I installed an ASP S91A 2 stroke in it. I hope to fly it tomorrow afternoon. I just finished doing the breakin process according to the manual I downloaded from Global Hobbies for a Magnum XL 91 2 stroke. I belive they are the same engine
03-11-2012, 08:53 PM
#1872
My Feedback: (24)
RE: Pheonix Extra 330S 60-90 Size
Think you'r right Jim. The ASP 70 is Identical to the Magnum XL 70 that I have. Only difference is the name on the side :-)
Good luck with your flights. I'm interested in how it does in verticals and hanging? Mine is with a Webra 1.20 Speed and it is just insane in power so I was thinking of switching to a 4 stroke wither my 1.25 golden knight or a 90 size depending on power issues.
Dave
Good luck with your flights. I'm interested in how it does in verticals and hanging? Mine is with a Webra 1.20 Speed and it is just insane in power so I was thinking of switching to a 4 stroke wither my 1.25 golden knight or a 90 size depending on power issues.
Dave
03-13-2012, 06:54 AM
#1874
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RE: Pheonix Extra 330S 60-90 Size
ORIGINAL: ameyam
... differently abled[8D]
Ameyam
... differently abled[8D]
Ameyam
A question :
Soon as the wind backs-off on Vegas, i want to vedio my Extra. I've Never
posted to You-tube. Will my SONY, Cyber-Shot 8.1mega pixels be good enough
or do Ya need better ?
Thanks Bille