ahicks

My Feedback: (2)

Awesome, another 20 coming on line!
Nothing written in stone. Here's some ideas?

These
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXWH32&P=7

these
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXWH34&P=7

or these
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXWH36&P=7

all work really well and are a good option when it comes to a solid linkage you won't have to worry about. If I were going to use 2-56 for a shorter control rod, they may be a good plan. The nice thing about using these is the fact there's no twisting moment on the arm or control horn they're fastened to as the clevis supports it on both sides? Might allow you to get away with using lighter duty components there. Just a thought...

Regarding the un-threaded end of a wire pushrod, 2-56 and 4-40 dies are usually pretty easy to come by locally? If not, K&S sells them through Tower
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXR767&P=ML
or
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXR765&P=ML

Another option might to get some carbon fiber tubing that will accept threaded rod of a size that makes sense? Buy some threaded rod, cut off a piece an inch and a half or so long, screw it into the tube and hit it with a drop of instant CA to lock it?

Last,
VR, thanks so much for the vote of confidence, but it's likely a little over the top?

JH313

That looks good to me. My setup is keeping the servos inside for the elevators, it looks cleaner and balanced closer. Did you find the stock control horns acceptable for the 20cc? Will those ball links work?

wjcalhoun

JH
+1 on ahicks' and VR's comments.

I might add that it is useful to pick up a 2-56 die, and a 4-40 die. That way, you can cut rods exactly to the length you need, and thread the ends about 1/2 - 5/8". Ball links self thread onto those.
If you really want to do it nicely, get both LH and RH threaded dies (4 total). You can put LH threads on one end, RH threads on the other, and by turning the rod, one adjusts the length of the rod precisely. Just like a turnbuckle. You can find esoteric tools like LH dies at McMaster Carr.

If you use the 4-40, you can leave the rod uncovered. If you are making your own turnbuckles, and use the 2-56 rod with CF/epoxy cover, be sure to leave an extra 1/2 or so UNCOVERED so that you can get pliers on the rod. Pliers on the CF does not work well.

As VR said, build it to suit yourself; flying style, power (we all seem to over power our birds), cost, and personal discomfort level losing a bird to hardware failure are all considerations.

VictoryRoll

My Feedback: (2)

@ahicks: Over the top.... it's never over the top for you, Al... hehe ... seriously, You & Bill have helped me a tremendous amount, just in reading many of your answers to others' postings and such... so, I do thank you... and your advice is always spot on. That is the truth..

@JH: Here are a few options for control arms, rods, ball links, etc.


For Control Rods:

I have used these: http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXFV02 They can be cut if need arises, and re-threaded at opposite end w/reverse thread (as @wjc said. I buy two packs at once which gives me plenty of rods with varying lengths and the hope that the lengths can be modified to fit. I have had pretty good luck with the rod lengths, only needing to cut "some" of the thread off to fit. Note: I halve the cut length (if large enough) and cut half the amount on each side, giving me the max number of threads on both sides.
As @wjc mentioned, you can use turnbuckles, which are really nice (preferred), but very expensive, at least for me. But if you want to use the best, you can buy them in varying lengths, colors, diameters, and from a variety of sources (I used HH just b/c I knew they carry them, but just use a google search and you'll find plenty of sources... umm, Aero-Works also comes to mind. http://aero-works.net/store/

As I said, I use the rods above, cut to proper length, and will either thread it, if needed, or you could solder (and I hate using soldered ends of anything) these on the opposite side. It has worked for me, but I do NOT have much experience using them: http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXD924

For Control Horns, I use these:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXDCU2

or these:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXCVZS&P=M

or these:

( These are great, but also tend to wear at the plastic hole. I have not had any failures myself but I change them as soon as I see enough wear to make me worry.. there not that expensive, but can be a pain to install aligning the four holes, then again, if you already installed, replacement is a snap!
small: http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXMUB6&P=7
large: http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXFV36&P=7

I consider these the best for all metal: http://www.aero-works.net/store/detail.aspx?ID=475 ... and Aero-Works is never a bad place to buy from... some of the best ARF's on the market, if you have the money.

Ball Links

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXFPW7 I buy them in packs of six (6)...small savings, but I don't like being without some in the field box or in the workshop.


Here is a what I consider one of the best setups on the market, if not the best:

http://aero-works.net/store/images/u...ns_large03.jpg (this pic is found on the same page as the link above for control hinges or here is the link for that page: http://aero-works.net/store/detail.aspx?ID=475


I think that covers it... except if you're looking for another good source or two:

For Opto-Kill switches I use ValleyView: http://www.valleyviewrc.com/estore/ Opto-Kill's here: http://www.valleyviewrc.com/estore/e...-switches.html

For Servo Arms: I don't always buy from Aero-Beez, as I try to buy as many product(s) as I can at one store, giving me some negotiation leverage and free-shipping if nothing else:http://aerobeez.com/Hardwares-Servo-Arms/ I typically use the Du-Bro HD Arms for Futaba.

For Servos: I use Savox. @wjc (Bill) recommended these to me and have have not looked back. Dollar for dollar they offer best specs for the money... great torque, speed and survive-ability/reliability.
On my R70 I am using these: http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_...tal-Gear-Servo I used AMain Hobbies, as they gave me best pricing.

Otherwise I use either Futaba or HiTec. Futaba's are so expensive, I have pretty much stopped paying the premium for their name (from what I understand, the Savox's are the SAME as the Futaba's,
I do love HiTec's too and was thinking about these http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXUZ80&P=ML, but as I said bang for the buck, the Savox 251MG's beat them out, by a mile, IMHO.

Having mentioned money several times. it does bring me to another thought... When you consider the cost of the R70, how much do you really want to spend on "high-end" parts and accessories? With the DLE 20, and all the electronics, and hardware you will probably be at 3X the cost of the airframe alone. If anyone has a formula that aligns/advises/recommends/predicts the cost of the airframe with "expected" or recommended cost of all hardware, engine, electronics, etc., I would love to have it a or a link. It might be fun!

Again, these are my choices, use your own experiences and budget (the largest factor in this house ).

This is another excellent resource: http://www.flyinggiants.com/ many, many great articles, discussions, information...Great!

Whew, that was a lot of rambling on... sorry about that! Hope it does help JH


-VR-

JH313

Thank you to all who have helped. I also want to apologize for hijacking the thread (although it doesn't seem like anybody minds). First of all, thank you for all of the links and I have gone through everything sent. I already have servos, and while they are not as powerful as the ones you link to,they should still be sufficient. http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXXCZ9&P=ML.
The rods, it looks like, will not be long enough though. I measured out 24" for the elevators and rudder. I need to look at where to find push rods of at least this length, tower only sells them in large packs (more than I need), and I can go from there. Once I figure out exactly what I am doing, I will put out my final plan for "approval" and will go from there. Also, rather than using a IBEC, I plan to do a servo-controlled choke.
Thanks again for all of the help.
One more question, does anybody know the screw size for these servos, I can't seem to find it anywhere.

VictoryRoll

My Feedback: (2)

Sounds Great! The BEC was j.i.c. you wanted to run w/ one battery for ignition and electronics (servos & rcvr) to isolate the ignition so no transfer of noise to receiver/servos, etc. My bad on rods, I thought you were going on a short run from servo to control surface (like Aileron or even elev., mounted in rear for short throw. Bill's (@wjcalhoun) recommendation of a Carbon Fiber rod sounds like a good answer, very stiff rod, slight "bendabllity", with some kind of a sheath that gets glued to the frame down thru the length of the fuse (that may be pretty hard to do, unless you will be (obviously) using the installed one, which then may/will restrict your choice of CF rod diameter??? Quick answer for more direct which = stronger & more accurate control, move the servos to the rear... there are many people who have done so and the templates to hold/mount the servos in the rear of the fuse as well as pics are also available in this thread. However, many people have also gone the route you are, using the long rods from the servo bay. I am sorry, as I do not have any experience with this model using this approach. I would set up the rudder with a pull-pull system with something like these two items:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXD859&P=ML
and a servo arm "like" this one... (this one I link to has extra parts which are included in the pull-pull product linked above, but if you buy this one, you'll have some extra parts for future)
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXDTBV&P=7


Just a quick note... depending on the type of flying you will be performing, those Karbonite gears may be a concern.. check before every flight or beginning of day for slop and/or flutter, etc. Torque could be a problem depending on yur style of flying, I would guess.??? With the 20cc, she does have ability to crank-it-up (@wjc has reached 100+, if I am correct)

Again, @wjc and/or @ahicks can give you a whole lot more advice and info on this as I am not an expert in any means of the term.

Is this what your looking for in regards to the servo screw size? http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXFRM2&P=ML or... these: http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXDEN4&P=7 ??? Note: On the later servo horn screw, these are for your "resin" gear. They also make for metal gears too... just a note so you buy the correct one, if in fact these are what you are looking for.

For more detailed information for the Servos Screws, contact Hitec website, and review the specs, or simply call or email them.

Best of luck


-VR-

ahicks

My Feedback: (2)

J
IMHO, Karbonite gears and gas engines don't mix well. They're plenty strong enough but they don't like the vibration of the gasser well at all. They have a tendency to break 1 tooth off right where the servo centers, which appears as a slight amount of 'slop' in the control surface it's attached to. If you don't stay right on top of the plane with pre flights prior to ever flight you may not spot the issue and you'll be exposing the plane to the potential for flutter on that control surface.

Metal gears HIGHLY recommended for any gasser! Some say they get away with nylon, but I've never had any luck with those either. -Al

BTW, this group FREQUENTLY wanders a little (completely addicted), eventually making our way back to the topic on hand when somebody has a relevant question!

JH313

Thank you, looks like another delay. Could you at least tell me my ca hinges will be okay to keep???

ahicks

My Feedback: (2)

Geez... sorry, I really do hate to keep throwing darts at your plans! I don't normally get into servo discussions, but when somebody brings up Karbonite I feel I have to say something...

I don't like CA hinges because they've let go on me several times. Not right away, but after say, a season's use, during the second or maybe 3rd season? You'll be checking the plane out and spot a hinge that's completely separated right on the hinge line! A flying buddy showed me an aileron on his plane just a couple nights ago where 3 of the 4 hinges had failed?

So use them if you like, but make sure they're properly installed, and then, keep an eye on them!
-Al

VictoryRoll

My Feedback: (2)

JH (Jacob),

I went back and looked at all of the posts, as far back as page 268. All of these questions have been addressed.

For Servo Issue See Post #6728 & #6730
For Your Budget Post # 6731
For CA Hinges Post #6894 and the following 4 or 5 follow-up posts

...and many more in regards to various other issues.

IMHO, you have the information for making good decisions. Given your budget, you are the only person who can balance the needs/options vs. the dollars.
It is really hard for me (any of us) to say which direction is best for you, except to possibly take one of these three positions: (not that these are the only 3 options you have)
1. Go with the best you can afford and don't look back. There is plenty of evidence of people using lower priced items and getting good results. You just have to accept the fact that bad things may be more likely (emphasis on may be more likely) to happen.
2. Make the build a long term project and buy the recommended options (i.e. servos, rods, etc) when your budget allows. I have to do the same, as I am on a fixed income (read: retired). It can sometimes be fun to take it slow, read about varying options, and shop around for best pricing, etc.
3. Combine both #1. and #2 above. That is, upgrade to higher-end products only where it is "highly recommended". Example, hinges and servos only.

As people have mentioned, this plane w/ 20cc has plenty of giddy-up. If you were to make a dumb-thumb mistake, will the CA hinge hold up? How about the servo gear stripping? Likely, but it is more likely to hold up with a pin-hinge or HD Nylon hinge by DuBro,http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXD944&P=ML (I do not use these very much but they hold up pretty good too, hard to align, IMHO)

BTW, if you are looking for a good video on "How to Install Robart Hinges", here is one that is divided up into 3 parts (which most people have to do, as YouTube has a size/time limit for regular members): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnBCelaWyP8 There are several other videos too. Installing the Robart's will not break the bank either, about $6 for (15) pieces. http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXET55&P=7 The 1/8" will be fine. Space accordingly to fit approx. 6 per aileron, if you decide to do... 2" or 3" apart on ELEV, about 4 or 5 hinges on the RUDD... (other may want to chime in on their preferred method and pin count per control surface on the R70. This drill jig may help you with alignment for drilling: http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXET65&P=M.

Again, IMHO, I personally would do a slow build using the various higher-end products that people have described or are using. If you were to do a quick count of the number of people using the high-end products vs. products included with the ARF, I think the numbers would point to the far majority using the high-end. If you look at POST# 6650 (bottom of page# 266), by @lecgo41, it has pics of a very nice build.

All of us, to some degree, have this same problem and it can be difficult, esp. if you're like me and want to get that bird in the air as fast as possible!

I do believe, however, that when you try to skimp on dollars/products, it usually ends up biting you in the tush. Especially in this hobby.

-VR-

Dreamtime

Hi Victory Roll and those others with the last few posts -- very informative and a wonderful summary of parts based on solid experience. I am new to to both RC Universe and this thread (usually post on the RCGroups thread). However I have got through a lot of it over the past months having invested in an airframe back in March. As Victory Roll posted, I am building as the budget comes in, and prefer to use quality where possible. I have owned close on 30 planes over the years and have learned the hard way that "the poor man usually pays twice".

So far I have spent ages slowly going through the 22 or so Robart pin hinges. Again, hard experience with Ca hinges. I have done the aluminium (NZ pronunciation) angle mod to the under carriage which looks very neat and certainly is solid. I dropped the bare airframe from a metre angled at 45deg onto the undercarriage -- no problem. If it is going to fail, rather at this stage.
So now it is just a case of getting those lovely goodies (as posted on the excellent summary above) from Tower (when the coupon codes look good), and deciding on servos.

I am tossing up between these http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXPHD5&P=7 (basically Hitec 5425's) with have less torque but are faster, versus the Savox 251's which have huge torque but are a bit slower. Those using the Savox -- do you notice the speed difference in practice? I have some Futaba 3305 which are a similar speed to the Savox, and they are clearly slower both visually and when flying, but it seems that the Savox are becoming the preferred servo for the Revolver. Any comments would be much appreciated.

Lastly, the last post from Vic Roll, very well said and nice to see someone posting good common sense. After all, we are doing this for the joy of flying, and if a plane, build etc detracts from this, think again. So far this thread has been very pleasant and informative, thanks.

Sbach342Guy

Finished my electric conversion last night and remaidened her this morning. It's been almost two years since the last time I flew her. Wow, I forgot how well this plane flies...and lands when properly set up.

ahicks

My Feedback: (2)

Dreamtime - Welcome! please make yourself at home.

Sbach342Guy - congrats on the RE-maiden! Regarding "properly set up", what did you change? Or are you referring to the fact it's an electric now?

Sbach342Guy

I always had problems landing this thing unless the idle was real low. That is what I was referring to. It is easier to manage throttle with an electric. The six minute flight time kinda sucks.

ahicks

My Feedback: (2)

Next size smaller prop?

VictoryRoll

My Feedback: (2)

Welcome Dreamtime, great to have another R70 owner/pilot !
I love this thread as it is one of the most active on RCU, which has helped me immensely in learning about issues/problems and their solutions, not just for the R70, but I have applied many times to my other ARF's/aircraft. Great thread.

I love that saying "the poor man usually pays twice" ! I have never heard that one

RE:
Undercarriage... sounds like you nailed it! I went the fiberglass route, and have yet to experience any issues, but I believe more people have used the metal option and have had tremendous success. I would do the metal if I had to do again, as it is probably easier, very solid, faster and less messy!

Servos - I do not have any experience with Tower Hobby brand servos. Zero, zilch. The torque looks great and the speed is excellent. I would ask around, or maybe others can chime in here with their personal experiences with TH servos. I am thinking about the other specs which may be of concern, such as centering etc. and their long term reliability/"survive-ability". I just don't know those answers.

Some links on TH servos from a quick Google search:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-m...g-u-servo.html
http://www.helifreak.com/archive/index.php/t-49504.html (I know this is for a heli, but IMHO it still applies. Heli's can put very hard stresses on servos, esp. in aerobatics (not that I own or fly them, but as I said, the info & posts seem to apply equally as well).

On the contrary, I can find an equal number of pages that state negative experiences with each different brand servo on the market! My personal experience is (in no particular order), Futaba, HiTec & Savox are all brands I know and trust. Just MHO.

I can say, however, it all depends on the type of flying you will be doing. If your driving them hard, I tend to favor one of the Big 4 (Futaba, JR/Spectrum, HiTec or Savox). One other question that comes to mind is, "What power plant are you installing? If you're going with the DLE20cc gasser, vibration should be considered. Same with a four-stroke.
Seek someone with first-hand knowledge.

I also would consider two other things; 1). Physical size fit for opening. 2). Parts replacement availability. I see that you live in New Zealand (boy, would I love to go there!) so I have no knowledge of availability of the different brands and their respective parts???


(Disclaimer before next link: I am NOT saying the TH servo you are contemplating is cheap, it is not @ $43, but I just found this page and thought that the description of common problems with cheap servos is pretty spot on)
http://www.hooked-on-rc-airplanes.com/cheap-servos.html

...and on a last note for servos, you state "but it seems that the Savox are becoming the preferred servo for the Revolver" I do not believe that is necessarily true.


Here is a great site for analyzing and comparing most (if not all) of the servos on the market (note: Top of page allows you to quickly select a particular brand, and then you can sort each by speed, torque, type, any of the headings)...also, if you do not see your servo brand across the top, click on "more" and the drop-down will surely have your brand, haha.. huge list).
http://www.servodatabase.com/servos/all

I found this servo while sorting and comparing on the website linked above (servodatabase.com)... this may be what you're looking for??
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXUZ76&P=ML Great specs, great price and HiTec....

I hope that helps some.... and as @ahicks says "this thread is addictive"... count me as a true addict !

thx,

-VR-

Dreamtime

Thanks for the rapid response Vic Roll and ahicks for the welcome. You have supplied some great links. I have used servo data base to look at individual servos but somehow missed the comparison engine -- very useful.
I think that the servos you linked to (http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXUZ76&P=ML) the Hitec 5625mg pretty much fulfil all the criteria. I have been told that the tower TS160 are the same servos without the programmability, but for a few dollars more the Hitec have this feature plus the Hitec warranty -- so a no-brainer here.

Interestingly there are some Hyperion servos that crop up on the servo database search that look really good. They are fast, light, good torque etc. Hyperion make some good products with excellent motors, but I find very little review material about their servos -- anyone out there with experience using hyperions? (I know they are made in Korea, but that is about it).

I already have a Scorpion 4035 380kv, so even though the DLE20 was tempting and available in NZ, I will go electric. I do like speed (over 100mph), but am equally happy to cruise, flip through some aerobatic moves and just have fun. (sounds like most of us!) So for electric setups, I am hoping to get at least 2000W, over 9000rpm if possible on 8s lipos. I think that this Scorp. should do it.

New Zealand is beautiful, largely relaxed, and we tend to forget this living here. RC gear is expensive and largely we have to bring these in. The Revolver for example cost me US$120 to ship here. (cheapest). The only other issue is that the ratio of salary to cost of living is not the best, but for most is adequate. Even with under average wage, something like the Revolver with careful budgeting is still doable.

As you note, these forums are amazing and addictive. The number of topics that arise are huge -- I have even picked up good advice on vacuum cleaners on the RC forums!

VictoryRoll

My Feedback: (2)

The HiTec's I linked are really nice servos. One thing I really like about HiTec, their broad spectrum of servos. Although I have never verified this, but I think they may have the highest variety of servos of all the major brands. You should be very happy with those babies and I hope and wish you the very best!

I tend to agree that the TS-160's are probably "close" to the same, but I also believe that the models that are sent to TH or any other 3rd party supplier that re-tags the servos as "their brand" are just not identical. Why would HiTec do that and allow TH to sell the very same servo at a lower price? It makes no sense to me, but then again, one never really knows. My guess would be that the TH ones are not quite the same in quality, "repeat-ability" on centering, etc., etc. That is just IMHO, I have no direct knowledge.

I think the move to electric is a GREAT one! The ability to have the motor stop fully on the landing approach will make landings smoother and most likely easier! Please post your experiences with the electric so that we can all understand the value and the results... it would be greatly appreciated!

I do not have any experience with Hyperion servos, although from a business perspective, I know that their products are all the very best in quality and performance. That is not to say I would move to them over HiTec's, it IS to say that I would be comfortable with their name, quality and industrial reputation.

For electric setups, there are many people who have contributed to this thread, that have gone the electric route. I am sure you can review the past posts and get their names and send a PM for more detailed information. I may have to visit you in NZ w/ the wife and we fly in your gorgeous country!

You seem like such a nice fellow. It is too bad you are so far away from us, as I would enjoy the ability to "have a day at the field" together and share notes and experiences.
If there is some manner in which I could help you save money by purchasing items for you and then sending them to you, I offer you my help. Just let me know and PM me.
I wish you all the best and as always: ALWAYS have fun!

Fond Regards,

-VR- (Don)

Dreamtime

Thanks for the kind offer Don -- I will likely take it up. The hyperions are tempting and a few dollars cheaper, but personal recommendation regarding equipment must win -- so those Hitecs it will be. I suspect that the TH servos have skipped QC or such-like, and as you note, possibly not the same quality as a result? I will certainly post findings as I delve into the electric setup for this plane -- the first time using an 8s lipo.
Please see my PM -- hope it went through.

I am attaching 2 pics of my LG reinforcement. With all bolts etc it added about 2.5oz -- well worth it.

Take Care
Brian

VictoryRoll

My Feedback: (2)

Brian,

I have not incorporated the aluminum angle piece for reinforcement, so I cannot speak of how good or complete your job is. I know there is a set of photos taken a while back, and I also know that a short time ago Al @ahicks, did a renewed description with either the photos or the link to the older thread that has the photos. Try between 5-20 pages back from here??? If I remember correctly. and that is always a challenge these days, the aluminum went back about 6 or 7 inches from the firewall??
Al, do you have that post you did and can you point @Dreamtime to it?


I have a bit of a tight schedule the next few days, through Thursday, but after that I may have some more time to research for you.

Glad to hear you're going w/ the HiTec's. Great move!

-VR-

markhamregular

I love my Revolver 70 but I think the OS120 is way too slow for that plane. I am thinking about a YS115 4 stroke.
I am opened to any other suggestion for engine combinations with the Revolver 70 giving a decent performance in terms of speed.

Thanks.

ahicks

My Feedback: (2)

Brian, the LG mod looks fine from where I'm sitting. Nice tidy job. Well done!

markhamregular - be patient. We have a regular here that's running a DLE 20 much faster than I thought the plane would ever go. I'll let him tell you about it...

markhamregular

Sorry but I can't use gas. I keep my planes in my bedroom, and the smell is a problem

Sbach342Guy

Took the "new" Revolver to my second airfield for the first time in two years. I had forgotten just how much people like to comment on this plane. I'm really loving the electric power. Vertical appears to be unlimited....at least higher than I ever need to climb with it.

Dreamtime

Thanks ahicks for the LG comments -- the mods should work I hope.
Question for sbachguy -- you may have documented it earlier, but what electric system / watts etc are you using?