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Newby SPAD autogyro question

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Old 10-14-2004, 11:03 AM
  #1  
adamdb
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Default Newby SPAD autogyro question

I am building a SPAD autogyro and decided on a dual rotor winged autogyro as the most likely to be successful for my first attempt. The rotors are approx. 25" in diameter and the wing is 30" span. I will be using a Norvel .25 and a 10x3 prop. Rotor blades have a 3" chord and a symmetrical airfoil (I know, not the best lift, but they were easy to build with a very consistent shape).

My question is this, I would like to fly this using a 3 channel radio and was wondering if it would be better to use aileron or rudder for directional control? My rotors are set so that the advancing blade is toward the center. The masts for the rotors are 5/32 music wire glued into blocks in the wingtips. The masts lay back at a 10 degree angle and the blades are set at 5 degrees incidence. I wanted to use rudder control, but miscalculated on my wing and put in only about 7 degrees of dihedral. So I am concerned that there is not enough dihedral for rudder control to be effective.

This is my first autogyro, although I have been reading about them and wanting to build one for years. I think I have all the information at www.autogyro.com memorized by now.

When this one is successful I would like to experiment with tilting the rotors for directional control like another gentleman did and wrote about on Mr. Baxter's site, then eventually build a direct control SPAD gyro.

Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated.
Adam
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Old 10-14-2004, 01:37 PM
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

I have plans to my winged gyro on www.spadworld.net under spad orginals . I used alierons and a non dihedral wing and flat bottom rotors. its easy to get the flat bottm rotors to turn out close to the same. I tape the LE of the blade to my work table befor i add the weights to glue it. this makes it hold a flat bottm with a slight under camber towars the TE of the blade. Alierons will give you a better chance at success.
I am also working on a coaxial twin rotor gyro with a left right tilting head. I made a short test flight at dark last night down the runway and it flew almost hands off down the strip. I cut power and it landed on the wheels. Once i test it with a few real flight i will make plans for it if anyone is intrested.

symmetrical rotors might work ok on the winged gyro but you should go to flat bottom as you will get alot of lift out of the spad flat bottom airfoil. The winged version flys great and very similar to a fixed wing.
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Old 10-14-2004, 01:39 PM
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

5/32 wire is a bit flimsy. I use 1/4 inch bolts for my masts
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Old 10-14-2004, 01:58 PM
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

Hello Adam,

Why don't you make your first gyro from a tried and true design? Your first gyro should be something that's been flown succesfully by an experienced gyro flier in the past. If you insist on making a SPAD design, do it after you've all ready learned to fly gyros on a proven design!
There are a few fellas on this forum that are also attempting to design a SPAD gyro as their first gyro? I guess they think it will be cheaper than using a proven design, but I doubt it. There is a tried and true gyro for sale on this forum called The PT Gyro, It can be had for a VERY reasonable price---Less than $100---. I've seen it fly at the recent Gyro Fly-in at Muncie. It takes off from the ground with no bad habbits and flies very good!!!
I'm sure you could spend much more trying to develope your own SPAD gyro.
Please take some advice from a guy that has been flying gyros for nearly three years. Learn on a real gyro before you waste your time with a SPAD.
The gyro you are talking about won't fly with semetrical airfoils on the rotor. If you must beat your head against the wall trying to design your own, use a flat bottom airfoil!!! You might try to approximate the design of the Gyrace, it uses 3 channels rudder and elevator and throttle. Don't even consider using ailerons, they're a waste of time. I've had over 200 flight on my Gyrace it's a good gyro to start out with if you want to use two rotors. I'm sure the .25 engine will not be near enough power for the Spad you discribed, I'll bet you will need at least a .40 unless your design is real light.

Good Luck,.... you're going to need it if tou insist on the SPAD as a first gyro!

Joel
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Old 10-14-2004, 02:25 PM
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

Yep i doubt the 25 will pull it a pro 46 will though. My spad winged gyro flys fine BTW. I have tryed 3 differnt ones and all flew with no crashes or bad habits. follow my plans and it will fly.
Spads not always about being cheap. I like the thrill of designing something on my own that flys and the durability. I dont know how many failed attempts with a single rotor no winged spad gyro have failed but the baldes and fuse are still in tact.

For people who dont like trouble shooting or trying to design something on there own. Then yes i would agree buy a proven design and learn on it.
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Old 10-14-2004, 02:52 PM
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

How about instead of discouraging someone from building with SPAD material.......how about ENCOURAGING them to brach out and try new things. That is the SPAD philosophy......if it doesn't work then you are out only a few bucks versus several hundred dollars. BRAVO adamb.....give it a shot and let us know how it goes!!!
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Old 10-14-2004, 03:47 PM
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

yep! it will fly for sure if you take a look at my plans. I didnt even have plans to go by i used the that looks about right theory.
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Old 10-14-2004, 07:26 PM
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

If your SPAD autogyro flies so good, why do you need a wing? When your SPAD gyro flies without a wing I'd be the first to congradulate you!
I'll be waiting to see your flight photos.

Joel
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Old 10-14-2004, 09:36 PM
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

Humm I dont think a 300 sq in wing will fly a 5lbs plane. Why does the gyrace need a wing?

BTW i did fly my non winged Spad gyro today. I plan to get inflight pics of it When my buddy and i get together. its a very smooth and stable machine. Hard to see though due to the thin aluminum fuse.
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Old 10-14-2004, 10:43 PM
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

Wow...what great advice "Learn on a real gyro before you waste your time with a SPAD." That makes me want to try even harder.

Splinter. [>:]

Another quote....

"Good Luck,.... you're going to need it if you insist on the BALSA as a first gyro!"
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Old 10-14-2004, 11:52 PM
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JoelW
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

Here's a Gyrace that dosen't need a wing, and two other twinrotors that don't need a wing either!

Joel
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Old 10-15-2004, 09:13 AM
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

Yes i know there are some without the darn wing! SO why built any with wings? I have seen plenty of pics of winged gyros.

I really dont get you balsa guys. Whats your motto? Plastic doesnt fly? LOL The fixed wing spads sure fly well and so do the gyro spads. And it funny that few people want to help the guy with the new spad project but if its a wood they seem to get more help![>:]

From your previous post i assume you dont want anyone trying anything different just following the rest of the crowd. Rock on splinter! LOL My gyro has hit the ground so hard with little to no damage! I would love to see a balsa gyro do that!
Adam I hope we have not scared you away with this tired old fight against spads. I think it all boils down to the fact that some people cant stand to see something so simple, Durable and easy to built, FLY SO WELL!
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Old 10-15-2004, 11:38 AM
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

You know, I had hoped for an open-minded discussion and some helpful suggestions, but I guess since I am trying something different I won't get that here (except for those SPADers brave enough to reply). Thank you Grant, Splinter Wood, and Spadinator for your comments.

For the rest of you, I build SPADs because they are inexpensive, nearly indestructible, and it is very quick to build and try new things. The whole SPAD philosophy is: Try it and see if it works, if it doesn't you are out $10 in materials and a little time. For the cost of one "proven" design (in terms of both time and money) I can try at least 10 different SPADs.

So, this is my last post to this forum and probably my last on RCU. I will instead hang out at SPADWorld.net where people are open to the possibility that the way something has been done in the past is not necessarily the only way to do something.

Adam
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Old 10-15-2004, 01:04 PM
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

It's too bad Splinter Wood is so against SPADS. I enjoy flying both balsa and SPADS but out of all the planes I like to fly best is my fleet of .25 sized combat planes (Derringers), completely constructed out of Corplas. They are extremely rugged, light (yes, 2.5 lbs without fuel) and is highly manueverable, yet lands gently. What more could you want ? Theres a guy in my club who has one single corplas plane (a gnat) but is generally a balsa flyer and he complains everytime he can't get the plane to fly, blaming it on the corplas when it really has more to do with hand launching technique.

I have been flying for over a year now and have many balsa and spad planes. The spads are great flying ships, despite people's ignorant opinions of them (try one, then come back and lets talk). I also have more flying time than most of my club members during the year because I have no fear of wind or adverse conditions flying plastic. I also enjoy flying my Cub, 4-star 60, biplane, etc... and don't make it a point to put someone else's type of plane down. My club has about 50 members and I'd say at least a quarter of them have at least one SPAD.

It's a great sport until a few bozos interject thoughtless commentary about what someone flies. You don't have to like SPADS but at the very least, keep in mind what your comments do to others.
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Old 10-15-2004, 01:07 PM
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

Glad to see you hanging in there Adam. Just like the typical RCU users to bash out a spad. I thnk this forum should be shutdown if there is not going to be any more help than Adam recieved. Spadworld might not have a gyro forum but i bet there will be some helpful replys if this is brought up over there.
Once i post my gyro flying without a wing i am done here as well. Not all of the users here are this way! Just some of them but enough to turn me away from rcu.[:'(]
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Old 10-15-2004, 02:39 PM
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

My post also goes to JoelW and some of his innuendo
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Old 10-15-2004, 02:48 PM
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

It's too bad Splinter Wood is so against SPADS
splinter wood is for the spad gyro. He has one he built. really neat design. He is also disappointed about the whole spads not good enough crap!

"Good Luck,.... you're going to need it if you insist on the BALSA as a first gyro!"
LOL

Good Luck,.... you're going to need it if tou insist on the SPAD as a first gyro!

Joel
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Old 10-15-2004, 05:29 PM
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

Sorry !

I misread his post.
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Old 10-15-2004, 07:21 PM
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

"Sorry.......I misread his post."

That's OK....I was being a little cynical. The whole point of having an open forum is lost when the groups splits on Balsa vs. Coro. I am happy with either since I own and fly both. What I have to say is the very nature of Gyro's and there limited popularity with RC modelers lends themselves to experimentation. With no Gyro modelers in my area...there is no one to teach me the ropes. The best I could do is find what I could on the net and go from there. Not wanting to spend alot of time, I decided to get something together quickly and start having fun. Nothing else goes together as fast as a SPAD style design. If I could buy decent plans of simple balsa/ply models I would. Autogyro.com as of today is still not selling plans for the Gyro's they've collected together. Maybe soon they get back into business.....I'll build one from wood....I don't care. I just want to fly and I don't want to buy a kit. I'd rather scratch...it's cheaper and more fun....I learn more about what I build. That's why SPAD's are fun to me.

I believe some of the newer guys wanting to expeiment with Gyro's should be encouraged to do so with whatever building technique they choose. Who knows what will come of it. Gyro's might even gain a little more popularity because of it from the exposure here on RCU. Enough said.

JoelW.....how about some specs on the yellow twin rotor Gyro. Was it a scratch build or a conversion? Looks like something I'd like to try. Also...nice back drop for your first Gyro picture. Reminds me of a Jeeping trip to Colorado and Utah.

Splinter.
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Old 10-15-2004, 11:18 PM
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

Hi there,

I really hope that we can all come to a simple conclusion. We all have one thing in common, We all love the thrill of flying something that only a select few have been able to get to fly correct. Personally, I don't care if the model is made out of a sofa chair, if someone has figured out how to make a gyro fly out of that material, I would like to know about it. Gyros can be very frustrating to say the least and I certianly hope that those who have answers to someone elses questions will step forward and share their knowledge. I foresee a progresive decline in the gyro sector to the stage the gyro may become extenct. I also know people like tintrax, splinterwood, Mr. Hal, JoelW (who is a devout gyro guru), Lizard, Jim Baxter, Sean and many others have that knowledge to share. I am therefore here to implore you to help all the new comers with what you can. If you do not have the time or patients to help just remember your own experience and know... Gyros have a way of humbling those who are smarter than the average bear. Sit on the sideline and see what developes btu don't let someone else say that we where the ones that drove them away.

To all new comers, know this.... It has always been the recommendation by those who have been a gyro pilot for a while to suggest you get a gyro which has been proven to fly as your first gyro. The gyro has many more veriables than that of a standard plane. Even planes which are made out of plastic or anything readily available to you. I have built a few SPAD's and understand the concept. I also know, whenever you build a smaller scale of anything, you are going to see and experience problems, which, full scall models have already delt with and cured. The same holds true for gyro's. There have many man-hours spent to try to get the model gyros to fly. The fellows you have been in contact with in this thread and others, I can assure you, are only here to help you. These guys are as devoted as anyone you will ever meet. Yes, some of them are older fellows who can't understand why you don't understand as fast as they do and may seem a little blunt at times. Just read over their responces a few times and you will see they are really trying to help you.

I hate seeing R/C'ers bashing each other in threads. It's really unbecoming of a pilot. BUT... That's just me!
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Old 10-16-2004, 10:10 PM
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

John,
I just have the feeling that sometimes some people dont want to help others in the forum. its not only this forum many others as well.
I am not trying to start a war on here by no means. it just seemed Joel was saying the spads are crap if your trying to build a gyro. Maybe it was not his intention. i just feel people should be incouraged to try something different if there up to the challange. Shoot i have been working on the gyro design for over a month and i finally have one that flys without a wing. Yes it was worth the time and effort.

I finally made a successful gyro without a wing fly! I will get pics to prove if i need to. Anyway my gyro is a coaxial design 2 rotors on the same shaft. No diheadral in the blades. I added diheadrial and it made a ton of drag and didnt seem to stabilize the model any different from the nondiheadrial blades. Its really cool but i hate the disorientation factor. Hard to tell if its leaning or not. its easy to fly and just neat as it can be. The tadem 30 inch rotors are a bit small though as the engine works hard to fly it. I am going to make some 42 to 48 inch ones for it next.
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Old 10-17-2004, 12:45 AM
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/New_Electric_Autogyro_Pics_%2D_Testing_Started_%2D _last_update_8%2D26%2D04/m_2031982/tm.htm]Here is my gyro project. I hope the problems I have faced will be your solutions.[/link]

I will try to help you if I can.
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Old 10-18-2004, 07:45 PM
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

Hi Guys,
I have been away for a couple of weeks and see all this discussion on Spad Gyros..
Joel and myself have been to several Auto gyro meets and have answered lots of questions from many modelers.. All we can do is answer in what has been working in the past.. I am sure that a SPAD autogyro will fly.. There has been lots of research on Blade airfoils and the SC6042 is very good..It would be very hard to duplicate with SPAD materials. The blades the Balsa Airfoils sells I believe is that airfoil..
I think that "www.gyronuts.com" website just got tired of people asking questions to learn more about gyros and then turning around and wanting to argue about it. Just my thoughts.
I have been a Member of EAA for over 40 years and believe in trying new things.New Materials.
There will be a Gyro meet at Spring Hill in Feb..and there will have one again in the Midwest this summer. I would like to see some SPADS there.. It just may be the thing thats gets more into building AUTO GYROS

Jim
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Old 11-27-2004, 09:24 AM
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Default RE: Newby SPAD autogyro question

I like your gyro s and want to build a starter ,can you send me some planes or information , I have an enya .15 and a .25 also an assormaent of electric motors Thanks please email me ASAP Ronplanes@optonline.net
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