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Rotodyne autogyro

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Old 12-27-2005, 08:28 AM
  #1
ciervapilot
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Default Rotodyne autogyro

Hello!
A Merry Christmas!
I found this image in the net.
It shows Don Incoll of Healsville Australia with his Fairey Rotodyne autogyro.
Has anyone contact to Don? Does anyone know something about his model?
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Old 12-27-2005, 09:41 AM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

Quite a coincidence!
In EZone forum I post a thread about this issue;
I want to design and build a Fairey Rotodine with 2 600 class engines, 1 mater plus rotor, but 4 bladed.

Could anybody halp me with suggestions, please?
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Old 12-27-2005, 09:44 AM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

Quite a coincidence!

In EZone forum I post a thread about this issue;
I want to design and build a Fairey Rotodine with 2 600 class engines, 1 mater plus rotor, but 4 bladed.

Could anybody halp me with suggestions, please?
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Old 12-27-2005, 06:13 PM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

Hi,
Should be a real challenge to build a Rotodine. As I understand, the rotor was actually powered by using thrusters at the blade tips. What is a 600 class engine?

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 12-27-2005, 08:45 PM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

A 600 class, is something such as a graupner speed 600, great planes uses them to i think, i believe its comparible to a 540 size almost the same maybe, correct me if im wrong cuz im not sure, I run two BL, high end to power that beast, even small gyros are hard to push with small motors, I have a G3po i dont used right now, needs rebuilt again, cause my bl wouldnt pull it, and it was around 10-12 ounces, and i have around 16 ounces of thrust, to give you an idea, also it comfortablly swings a 10-3.8 prop or a 9-3.8 which i prefer for more RPM and better effiency with similar thrust. Id look into to big himax motor or axi's but then you need to escs(ouch my wallet crys thinking about that king of thing.
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Old 12-28-2005, 10:51 AM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

Hi!
It's true that the original Rotodyne had tip jet engines at the rotor blades. I think it's impossible to realize as a model.
Don Incoll built the Rotodyne as a true autogyro with free rotating rotor. That's what I plan to do. So any ideas or any contact adress to Don?

Stefan
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Old 12-28-2005, 04:11 PM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

I think the full size Fairey Rotodyne was a true autogyro when in forward flight, the tip thrusters being used for take off & landings only. So it was a part time helicopter that coverted to a true autogyro. In model form therefore as an autogyro it would be fine. Interesting machine thats promising future was cut short.
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Old 12-28-2005, 07:16 PM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

Hi,
It looks like the Fairey Rotodyne's rotors didn't have a positive angle relative to the fuseledge. I think all of our models have at least 10 degrees for the rotors so any model without the tip thrusters would also require a positive angle. Just a thought.

Phil
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Old 12-29-2005, 03:42 PM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

True, there does not appear to be much backward slant, however there is a lot of information on Dogpile or Google, etc, and it states that in forward flight all power went to the forward facing props, none to the rotors. It did however have small wings so some of the load was taken by them. For model purposes it would be necessary to build in the rearward slant of the rotor shaft to give the rotors a positive angle of attack.
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Old 12-30-2005, 09:42 AM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

Just to clarify:
I,m designing it as a real autogyro.
Probably the rotor will have a 65 inches diameter, 4 bladed.
In the wings , 2 Speed 600 electric motors, and i the fuse a 8 cell Sanyo 2400 miliampers Nicad pack.
Rudder will work, but i´m still in doubt:
1) in what concerns to rotor tilting---> if I decide to have a direct control in the rotor, tilting it in the pitch and roll axis, would it be necessary have working elevators /
2)and ailerons in the small wings?
3)Whats the better inclination and position to the rotor, considering its a winged autogyro?

Help, please!
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Old 12-30-2005, 12:29 PM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

There is good research to indicate that you need 15-20 degrees of tilt to maintain autorotation.
http://www.enae.umd.edu/AGRC/Aero/Le...giro_paper.pdf
for a reference.
My empirical research also indicates that you need a disk loading of
(number of blades * 1.25 ounces)/square foot of disk area as a disk loading
for good performance and any chance of a power off landing.
(2 blades = 2.5 ounces/sq foot, 3 blades 3.75 oz/sq foot , 4 blades 5 ounces/sq foot)
Also you need thrust:weight = 1:1 or better for decent climb performance.
In electric terms you need ~ 100 (Brushless or 140 brushed )watts per pound.
For this size model I'd start out with a four bladed heli rotor head from www.centuryheli.com
to keep the flapping under control.
Because the model is smaller and thus the L/D performance of the blades is worse you will
have a higher than scale tiltback angle, thus any flapping will tend to drive the
rear blades into the fuse. A semi rigid head with swashplate will prevent this.
If you decide to do a tilting spindle head with four blades you will need substantial servos,
probably two per axis to handle the loads.
Using a 3 ounce blade, 3 inch offset in the flaping hinge,8 degrees of roll
control and 400 RPM as benchmark, the torque required is about 100 ounce/inches per blade, on four blades you'll
double that so you will need 200 ounce inches of mast tilt torque across 16 degrees of travel.
This means probably at least a 100 ounce inch servo on each axis, with metal gears.
You will also need more tail clearance/higher main mast.

a 65" rotor is 23 sq feet of disk.
If you stick to 5 ounces/sq feet, this is a 115 ounce model or 7.2 pounds.
A 9.6 volt pack at say, 40 amps is around 400 watts, not enough, especially into
a brushed setup.
To fly a 7 pound model on brushed power I would plan on about 1000 brushed watts (~ 1.3 horsepower).
So I think you are underpowered from the outset.
I'm flying 1 lb models with 100-120 brushless watts.
I'd plan on 600-800 brushless watts total for 7 pound aircraft.

mickey
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Old 12-30-2005, 12:30 PM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

Serus ciervapilot and all the autogyro nuts,

there is a model of the rotodyne, excluding Don's, that flew but as a helicopter. The model was built and flown by Jim Morley, an Englishman, now in retirement, who had a company producing model helicopters.

DETAILS TO THE MODEL.

Using his words the model had:
a wingspan of just over 3 feet (>.878 m),
a length just under 4 feet (<1.171 m), this makes the model approx. 1/15 scale
a rotor dia. of 5 feet (1.524 m) and
a weight of 14 lbs (6.36 kilos).

The chassis, mechanics and rotor head originated from the Maverick helicopter (produced by his company).
Engine was an OS 61. (Only one engine was used)
Rotor head was standard Maverick with conventional helicopter functions.
Secondary shafts were connected, under the wings, between a clutch and Maverick tailrotor gearboxes mounted in the engine nacelles.
To overcome the torque the props, both rotating in the same direction, worked in a push - pull mode. The port airscrew, with negative pitch blades, pushed and the starboard airscrew, with positive pitch, pulled.
Each airscrew was constructed from Maverick tailrotor components and had variable pitch blades. A special boss was turned from alu to accept four blades.
One servo (for the airscrews) provided pos./neg. pitch for one airscrew and a reverse function neg./pos. pitch for the other. This simulates the function of a tailrotor.
A second servo provided pos./neg. to both airscrews, this allowed forward flight or taxiing. Each airscrew was a mini rotor head.

A video of this model "A Fairey Rotodyne Story" is available (VHS, no DVD and PAL only) from [link=https://sslrelay.com/s84068217.oneandoneshop.co.uk/sess/utn;jsessionid=1543b56075ad1ba/shopdata/index.shopscript]Traplet Publications[/link] the price is 9.95 BRP (without postage).

I have spoken with Jim Morley with the hope that he still has plans available. At the moment he is searching his hobby room and garage. Should they turn up I'll leave a message on the forum.

Now that you have the info I'll be back tomorrow to look at the finished models .

Oh by the way I'm planning a model of the Rotodyne as well, with heli liftoff and autogyro flight but full electric and I'm looking for someone to help me with a prototype mixer. Any volunteers? [sm=drowning.gif]

P.S. I have a lot of photos, simple plans, drawings, cutaways etc. but I cant find out how to upload them.

P.P.S. Don Incoll has given up modelling sold all of his models and equipment and wishes to remain incognito. This is a great loss to the modelling world as he produced some fantastic and very original models. Please respect his wishes.

MfG, best regards, Karl.
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Old 12-30-2005, 08:29 PM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

Hi,

This may or may not be of any help, but I converted a Senior Kadet to a three rotor gyro. It has a short wing with aileron and conventional elevator and rudder. It doesn't have any head control and it flies great. If I converted the fuselage to look like a Rotodyne and used a single rotor it could be a rotodyne model, I think?

I flew it at the 2005 Spring Hill gyro meet and if interested, you can see the video at:

http://www.auav.net/autogyro/3rotor.html

Phil
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Old 01-01-2006, 01:13 PM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

Just if anyone is interested...

Rotodyne used its wing engines to drive compressors behind the engines to provide high pressure air out to the tip jets. Fuel was also passed out to the tips for combustion with this compressed air. Take-off and Landing was performed as a helicopter but the compressors were disengaged from the engines for flight as an autogyro. Speeds in excess of 190 mph which for the time were impressive.

I think an autogyro would be successful however you will need the aft tilt to make it work. Personally i would use only direct control in roll coupled to ailerons on the wings. Pitch by normal elevator only. I forget the link but a chap in australia did build one sucessfuly

Sean
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Old 01-01-2006, 01:28 PM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

Hi spindizzy,

I don't think that you read the first post.

Cheers, Karl.
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Old 01-01-2006, 02:25 PM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

Indeed you are correct, serves me right for jumping in with both feet first.. I have that traplet video......very interesting.

Happy new year

sean

I believe some of the rotodyne still exists at the Weston Super Mare museum. Rotorblade and cockpit section I think.
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Old 01-02-2006, 02:25 PM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

Fantastic suport !
Thanks a lot!
Keep changing information, guys!
The most, the better!
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Old 02-26-2006, 03:06 PM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

Hi one and all,

the Fairey Rotodyne plans have now arrived.

According to all that I have read the British Government ordered the destruction of all plans and documents pertaining to the Rotodyne, but I can assure you that these are not a figment of my imagination.

These are digitized copies of the original Fairey Aviation Company 3D plans (original scale 1:24). They are bitmap files (TIF) and are not suitable for plotters [] (too much background clutter) even a printout may need a lot of ink but they are useable .

Anyone who would like a copy should contact me by P.M. Because of the file size (1 @ 558 kb and 1 @ 782 kb), I can't post them here.

I'm looking for any other information (plans, videos, photos, ads., etc.) relating to the Rotodyne. Any info or tips will be more than gratefuly accepted.

Looking forward to any mail.

Regards, Karl.
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Old 11-20-2006, 09:48 PM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

Hi XE521/Karl,
I am a big fun of the Rotodyne and I just come across your posting; Where you got the plans from because I will really like to have them. I will like to make them real 3D CAD so if you can help me I will really APPRECIATE IT.
Thank in advance and blue skies.
Regards.
Mircea/Calgary Canada.
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Old 11-20-2006, 11:30 PM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

Hi Mircea, I've sent you an e-mail concerning the plans. OK, OLE' Karl.
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Old 12-25-2006, 07:26 AM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

Over 25 years ago I built Rotodyne for two .45 glow engines. I think, the diameter of the rotor was approximately 60”. The rotor head did tilt back, but not enough for proper autorotation. The restriction on the tilt angle were these two vertical fins at the tips of stabilizer. At that time I did not know that on the full size plane, they were tilted to almost horizontal position when taking off or landing. I remember running the model up and down the runway at high speeds. The rotor was spinning but not fast enough and the stubby wing was not producing enough lift for the model with relatively high wing loading.
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Old 12-28-2006, 12:07 PM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

Hi Ladislav,

that was a very nice looking model, pity you couldn't get it into the air. I imagine that it must have been very frustrating after all that hard work. Whatever happened to the model?

Regards. Karl.
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Old 12-28-2006, 03:46 PM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

Hi Karl.The model was destroyed after it was sitting in my workshop for years. I created plans from plastic kit I purchased. I do not have original plans. I know that whole model was built from the Styrofoam. Sorry for quality of photos but that is all I have.
Here is photo of my other Autogyro. Scale model of CIERVA C.8L-II with 76” diameter of the rotor (1:5.5 scale). The model was built from the balsa, plywood, steel and carbon fiber. Flying weight 8.5lbs. Power AXI 4130/16. Will be test flown in the spring 2007. Some tests were done already. The rotor was tested on the windy day to find out if there is issue with blades tracking properly and if there is vibration. There was no problem with that. The rotor generates lot and lot of lift. The rotor mast can tilt 7 degrees left to right with heavy duty servo. The advanced blade can flap upward by me using thick wall carbon fiber tube for main spar. The downward travel is restricted by steel cables. I have seen full size C.8L-II hanging in Paris museum.
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Old 12-29-2006, 12:03 AM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

Ladislav,

WOW! Congratulations on an absolutely beautiful model... one of the nicest I've seen pics of. Best of luck with your test flights in spring.
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Old 12-31-2006, 12:56 PM
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Default RE: Rotodyne autogyro

Nice work Ladislav,

You have a beautiful model there.
Best of luck with your flight tests.

For what it's worth:
I noticed that you have ailerons on the stub wing. I had ailerons on my Gyrace as well & found them to be not effective.
I disconnected them & covered them with Ultracote & do not use them.

Happy Flying,
Bob G
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