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Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

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Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

Old 05-31-2012, 01:23 PM
  #26  
bgosselin
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

@raptorboy: While the batteries in laptops, phones, cameras, etc are lithium, your analogy is not quite apples-to-apples. There are some substantial differences between batteries for these devices and those for R/C use:

1) Batteries for lower-powered devices (like phones and cameras) are mostly single-cell (1s) so no balancing is/can be done and so the charge circuits are much simpler. Multi-cell packs (like laptops) are made so each cell has a built-in monitoring circuit (BMS) that shuts off main current flow if temperature is exceeded or if any cell is over charged/discharged.

2) Cells are chosen specifically for the device to make sure they can easily handle the load. Not like R/Cs where people routinely stuff batteries of all types and sizes in their equipment which are not up to the task.

3) The charge circuits are integrated into the device so no chance for a erroneous cell count/amperage entry. Of course, someone could shoe-horn the wrong adapter that has the wrong output voltage/polarity, but sometimes you just can't account for all levels of stupidity.

4) Charge rates are usually lower than 1C.

5) Discharge C rates are far lower than just about any R/C I can think of.

And, despite all those manufacturer precautions, there still have been cases of battery issues in those devices, like pushinoldrc said.
Old 05-31-2012, 01:25 PM
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

lipos are safe to use provided you understand and follow the rules for charging them.true ...you can't abuse them like many have with nicadss.but if you charge and balance your packs and do it correctly these products are safe.notwithstanding ...commonsense dictates you use store them inlipo sacks etc.I store them in sacks and for peace of mind leave them in a fireproof lockbox. I feel safe charging in my garage or sometimes in the kitchen on my stovetop.a fireproof surface.But I AM ALWAYS and I MEAN ALWAYS IN ATTENDANCE!!! as for my other batteries I dont charge them and go to bed like I used to years ago.all batteries should be treated carefully!!

I am fortnuate now that our club has charging stations at the field.now I do my charging on site so as not to have to bother at home but always while travelling use lipo sacks and a small safe!I aint no fool!
Old 05-31-2012, 03:30 PM
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

A few years ago, I took apart an undamaged lipo battery cell. As I unwrapped the paper from between the black layers of material, the black material began to heat up and glow red. About a second later, it seemed to self-ignite, much like magnesium would. I had just enough time to toss the battery onto an open area on the concrete floor where it then burst into an intense ball of flames and sparks that lasted at least 20 seconds, then smoldered for at least a minute longer.

Another time, I drove a nail through a lipo battery. But nothing happened. I let the battery sit for several hours before going near it for fear that it might ignite at any moment. However, it never did.

I also witnessed a lipo battery that was just sitting on a bench, not being charged (and not damaged either), suddenly burst into sparks and flames.

My guess is that once these lipo batteries short-out, they can easily burst into flames and sparks. Whereas, most other batteries will simply discharge without developing any heat. I may have oversimplified, but that seems to be the bottom line.

As far as I'm concerned, I won't trust a lipo battery ... ever! You could do everthing wrong with it at one time and nothing will happen. Yet another time, they can burst into sparks and flames when just sitting on a bench.

Treat them as if they are dynamite.
1 - Don't leave them on a bench, table, desk, or on or near anything that could burn or catch fire.
2 - Always charge them on a cement floor, or in a ceramic bowl, and at least 3 feet away from anything that could burn.
3 - Always keep them in a ceramic bowl when not in use, and keep that bowl at least 3 feet away from anyting that could burn.
4 - Transport them in a ceramic bowl, or be willing to take the chance that they could catch fire at any given moment and burn your car down.
5 - Never trust them.
Old 05-31-2012, 04:33 PM
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

Ha!

I apply your rule #5 to women!
Old 05-31-2012, 10:06 PM
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

i may one day regret this but i dount use any thing no sack no box to store them in,some stay in the cars there in, radios , and i have a few just around,i dount use a expensive top of the line charger,my chargers are thunder ac6 55.00 shipped and a thunder t6 multi was a bit higher i have not had a battery catch on fire,and i have also had them get below 3v cell and use my nimth seting to bring them back to life, only thing i do is tern on my charger set the number of cells,voltage and if its a 2.2 i charge at 2.1 amp each setting to its own battery,witch nither of my chargers will let you just hook up a battery up or start untill there right,and if you hook it up backwards it will let you know very fast thats not right,so im not sure my advice is what you need but dount be to over protective,
Old 05-31-2012, 10:27 PM
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

Not sure that is the best advice. I too have never had a problem- had a pack or two go below 3v/cell and did a nimh charge.
I always balance charge and charge as slow as time permits- general never in a hurry. I don't like leaving batteries in situ incase of a small current drain.

In my 5yrs if charged as specified etc never a problem but hiding by some of HKs customer service I doubt they would rebuild my house if they sold me a faulty pack so why take the risk when some practical low tech and low cost solutions are available?!
(old metal filling case, old pot an some sand?!!)
Old 05-31-2012, 10:56 PM
  #32  
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

your right what i do may not be good for others,its funny i worry more about charging my nicd and nimth battery's i have had them to catch fire and if you ever seen or had a nimth battery pop it will shake you a bit, it not only has hot stuff coming out it has shrapnel as well, we all take a risk to run a rc,some like me just take a bigger risk,i also use the liion battery's with same manner,to me it must be the way these batterys are done,if i do them like this as i stated before and have no problems, a little care will help keep you in the safe, best thing is get a lipo and charger and keep them in a way that makes you feel safe, that should be some better advice, thanks
Old 05-31-2012, 11:51 PM
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?


ORIGINAL: BobbyMcGee

Ha!

I apply your rule #5 to women!
Yeah, I also apply rule # 5 to women! [8D]
Old 06-01-2012, 12:27 AM
  #34  
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

and whatever you choose, don't do this. This is actually someones set up.

Old 06-01-2012, 01:59 AM
  #35  
rctugman
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

Hi Trax de max..
Wow even to a complete novice like me that is just plain scary...surely he can see what will happen it does not take einstein to work it out

cheers Steve
Old 06-01-2012, 03:26 AM
  #36  
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

it's amazing what people come up with, to me a lipo sack is a safety device that should, have a regulation to pass for it to be just that.
I don't think there is such a regulation, which means cheap lipo sacks could be sold, which do nothing more than hold a lipo in a bag.

I can see the point of metal storage places are bad because if it goes up you can't tell if it has or not.
But if I'm upstairs or away outside and a fire does happen, I'd want it to be contained as much as possible.
If I had a fireproof safe I'd use that.

As much as using the metal container, All batteries have female connectors so there shouldn't be any contact with the metal case, the balance plugs are fully housed.
But even though they are in a metal container they are also inside a lipo sack.

My nano techs are just in there cardboard box sandwiched between the sack and tin on the bottom.

All in all be safe. The vids on youtube shows what goes wrong when you make it go wrong, Lipos go up in flames while in use too, but whats not said is what happened previously to that battery going up. Was it dropped off the bench the day before?. Was there a charging problem earlier that week?. Did it get knocked about carrying it to where you used it?.
Old 06-01-2012, 04:31 AM
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rctugman
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

Ho Trax de Max
You make very good point about the lipo sacks....I am very new to all this,,but with the technology now involved in RC to enable the hobby to be more enjoyable that no one as come up with a better way of charging & storing lipos? just my 2c.

Can I ask is technology re Lipo`s & batteries in general moving forward,illiminating most of the potencial threats.I can see already, that sure most problems are caused by the Guy who is not careful..but it as also being said that lipos can burn,ignite,smoke,fail for all sorts of reasons not nessecarily down to the owner??


I can not recall who or where, I was told of the ceramic storage /charging container on a bed of sand presumably on a ceramic base of somekind?
So maybe worth more investigation and some feedback from folks who use ceramic as against metal.

I am firmly of the belief that a small shed away from the house both for storing and charging my batteries is the answer with all the safety possible including container on sand e.t.c. + extiguisher/Fire Blanket/Smoke Alarm

does this sound ok to you guys

all the best Steve
Old 06-01-2012, 04:38 AM
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

Sounds more than okay. 

As long as you charge at manufacturers C rating etc etc
Old 06-01-2012, 04:53 AM
  #39  
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

Just to be clear, IATA and UN have two different classes of dangerous goods assigned to batteries: items such as cellphone, laptop, electric razors, etc, use excempted LI ION batteries, that due to the low risk associated can be carried on a passenger aircraft. They have to be declared if carried as cargo, but need no special procedures or packaging. On the other hand, LIPOs ARE regulated, can not be carried onboard passenger aircraft as cargo or personal baggage, and require special packaging and labelling to be able to fly even on freighter planes.

Even with all the safety procedures in place, a DC 8 and a B747 both UPS have been totally destroyed by fire believed to have been caused by lithium fires. The last one crashed near a populated ared in Dubai a couple of years ago.

A LIPO fire will burn hottest for some 20 seconds, at temps of 800 degrees celsius. Sand needs more than 1000 to melt and so does terracota, so the famous pot half filled with sand is the safest way, although no very comfortable to carry in the car, hehe. I always carry my batteries in the famous metal ammo box, but I put each individual in a ziplock bag just to make sure they won't short or touch each other, though how they could beats me, really.
Old 06-01-2012, 05:23 AM
  #40  
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

The better way of charging is to use the smart correct charger, also what the battery and charger manufacturer recommends to charge at.
To store, The manufacturer leaves it to the owner to be responsible, they only recommend things. By using the word recommend they take responsibility off of them. If they say, they should be stored like this and something happens, in this blame and claim world we live in they could be sued.

Lipos is a sort of new technology, Leeds university have developed a mouldable lipo that can be shaped to fit in places.
Youtube "lipos are safe" and you will see the crazy person do to a lipo when it's not on a charger and see how much they do to make it burn.
Stick a lipo on charger with wrong setting and watch how easily it is to burn.

I'm confident in my charger and how i treat/handle the lipos.
But for that slight chance of something happening, they are stored the way they are.
After every use I put them in storage charge, I never charge up the day/night before, always balance charge before i take the rc out. This is for all 4 of my lipos.
Storing in a £100 shed is better than storing in a £100,000 house, But mines has petrol/paint/thinners/oils stored in there.
Old 06-01-2012, 05:59 AM
  #41  
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?


ORIGINAL: trax de max


Storing in a £100 shed is better than storing in a £100,000 house, But mines has petrol/paint/thinners/oils stored in there.
My shed was filled with bottles of nitro fuel, paint thinner, acetone, and gas mix for my larger birds. I found the fire going about 3 minutes after it had ignited, and was able to douse it with a garden hose.

None of the chemicals caught fire, but I am still dealing with the smoke damage after a year. I don't know if it was the lipo chemicals that got all over everything, or the vaporized monokote from the rascal 40, but water doesn't wash it off.

On a different angle,(Ihave heard, read, or somehow gained the information) LiPo batteries (the ones we use) are the safest and greenest power available when it comes to disposal. They can be safely disposed of in a landfill without causeing any ecological damage. You just have to soak them in a pot of salty water about a week to neutralize the chemicals. The li-ion, NiCd, NiMh, LiFePo4, and all the other batteries leach compounds into the ground for many years. So much for the carbon footprint of the Chevy Volt!

Bryan
Old 06-01-2012, 06:48 AM
  #42  
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

Hello everyone
I am enjoying very much reading all your comments all of a very high standard.
But can I ask once more are any of the RC and other battery companies coming up with safer to use Lipos e.t.c.it would be interesting to know

We will buy a flat packed shed and insulate it,and add a ceramic container on a bed of sand think I already said this (sorry)


best wishes Steve

Old 06-01-2012, 07:54 AM
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

maybe in time there will be a safer battery but to match the energy density of a lipo may take some time.
heres a little read with different lithium cells.
[link=http://www.mpoweruk.com/lithiumS.htm]lithuim Info[/link]
Old 06-01-2012, 07:58 AM
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

I have done my research, thats my point. Research. Too much of what is said on these forums is just people repeating what they have heardsomeone else say without asking the question " do you know this to be true" Can lipos be dangerous? Yes; so can any battery chemistry if you incorrectly charge them or mis-handle. Education and researchis the key, not hearsay. Electronic devices that use lipos abound and even a 1 cell lipo can be made to burn/ explode if charged incorrectly. That is why the manufacturers of these devices build in safety circuit as noted elsewhere here, so that they can be safely used. Lipo's were never originally intended to be used in a high charge/discharge enviroment the way we use them, but manufacturers have adapted them for the market. There is no need to more afraid of lipos than any other battery, just more aware of their potential for destruction if incorrectly handled. I am very sorry that you had to experience that destruction first hand, I'vee been through a house fire from lighting and it's no fun. Some good info here although a bit dated. http://www.hangtimes.com/lithium_ion...er_saftey.html Be safe everyone, think safety, and have fun.
Old 06-01-2012, 08:01 AM
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

See if you can rent an ionizer from a rental store. It's used by fire and restoration crews to remove the smoke smell after a house fire.
Old 06-01-2012, 08:08 AM
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

Yep research is key, lets face it the most dangerous battery is the wet lead acid in your car. Highly explosive fumes, near lots of wires that could spark, petrol in the fuel lines near the battery. If it exlodes and the sulphuric acid hits you in the face, your blind,needs maintenance. But these batteries are still used and have been for a long time. There's the gel ones now which are safer and don't leak or need maintenance.
Old 06-01-2012, 08:38 AM
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

Hello Trax de max
good to hear from you and the rest of the guys

There's the gel ones now which are safer and don't leak or need maintenance.
Are these batteries available for RC Heli`s??
I also checked out the link you gave me a lot of imformation I was looking closely for any hope in the moving forward on Lipo technology

Lets hope something is found

all the best Steve
Old 06-01-2012, 08:54 AM
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?


[quote]ORIGINAL: raptureboy

Do you own a laptop? digital camara? cell phone? Any problem with their lipo batteries bursting and burning down homes and cars? No, I didn't think so. The problem is people using the wrong equipment and failing to follow the manufacturers recommended charge rates and time's. There are many good and capable chargers out there, I have used the TRITON 2 by Greatplanes with a balancer for 5 years now and never a problem. If I need to be away from a charging battery, then it goes into a ammo can with the lid closed and placed on the concrete floor of my garage, set the charge rate correctly and the timer and if you have it a temperture probe that shuts off the charger if the batttery gets too warm. Follow the rules and you won't get burned. I personally would stay away from cheap Chinese chargers. Good luck and don't be afraid.[img][/img]
[/quote

+1 Ihave used the triton for a long time and now on the Hitec 4x50 charger. i charge all mine on a wooden bench in the garage. I have been know to put on the charger and go watch a game on tv. i store all of them in a ammo can. I do plan to buy a large ceramic brown/tan or what ever color there pot from lowes or home depot. 10-15 gallon one. You can buy them in rectangle form with lids also. this is the perfect set up. i will just need to find a away to drill a hole with out breaking it.
Old 06-01-2012, 09:13 AM
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

Does anyone know how lipos are stored in a warehouse? No guessing now, you have to have personal knoweldge now. I'm curious because of all this talk about not leaving them on a table etc. Isee them sitting in the hobby shops all the time on a shelf. If you crash a plane with a lipo then I would not let it in the house, this is where I believe the fires start from batteries just sitting there. I know about them not being allowed on planes, when you order one from Tower and the like it has to ground shipped . But I have ordered from Hong Kong and received them in a week.Hmmm that must be one fast boat from China.
Old 06-01-2012, 09:21 AM
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Default RE: Lipo Fires Are Real![Fantastic Advice!] Can I ask for further help?

Use a cut off wheel and cut a notch in the lip for the charge wires, but make sure you wear safty glasses in case the wheel explodes.Remember, safety first! Although I have my doubts about cheap clay flower pots taking 800 deg heat from a flaming lipo unless you have the sand in there.

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