fargophil

My Feedback: (3)

Random question, are all 12v gel cells created equal? Tower wants $27.98 for a 12v7ah battery, while I can get a 12v 7ah battery elsewhere for less than half the price. For use in a starter box for cars is there any difference?

AIRPLANENUTS

My Feedback: (2)

Phil, I've used many brands, and I have not seen any difference in performance.

chuckk2

All 12v gel cells are not equal. Having said that, is there any easy way to tell the difference?
I think not!

Truckracer

My Feedback: (19)

As a rule, buying from an industrial supplier may provide a better battery than the ones you get from the hobby outlets. When working, I use to buy them by the hundreds and the quality always seemed better than the ones the guys were buying at the hobby shop, etc. Price about the same or less if bought in single lots.

These days, I just use a LiPo! Much more compact size and cheaper with higher cranking amperage availability.

kmeyers

Gel cell 7amphour lead acid is so yesterday. Heavy and made to power emergency lights and other power failure problems.

I like a nice 4s 2000mah lipo. Most 12v DC applications are made to handle the charging voltage of a 12v lead acid which is 14v. A 4s Life is good too.

Face it, battery technology has moved on. You should too.

fargophil

My Feedback: (3)

One issue I see with using a LiPo in a starter box application would be the removal each time I needed to charge it. From what I have read and understand it is unsafe to charge a LiPo battery while installed and it should be removed and at a minimum charged in a fire proof bag.

kmeyers

Know anybody who charges their cell phone that way?

l think you will find that most people who are willing to take their time and use a good charger know they won't have a problem.

Add to that you can go Life which will not pose any problem even if abused.

My first electric plane was 11 years ago. I was charging in a fire proof pot doing all the things you have heard about. That was a long time ago and even a longer time of little available information. The Lipo's are not charged that way anymore by me.

I will never buy a gel cell again for a flight box starter battery, that would be stupid with what my experience has taught me.

You may do what you want, but, I thought I would give you my recommendation.

Truckracer

My Feedback: (19)

These days, I see very few people who actually install a battery in a flight box for a starter. In most cases, the battery is more portable and is either attached to the starter or is at minimum, separate from the starter and connected by a cord and plugged together for easy removal. I'd bet most starters these days are self contained. I still have a good Lead acid batttery in a flight box but I doubt it has been used in over 2 years as I usually just use an old flight LiPo plugged onto the starter cord.

dirtybird

My Feedback: (5)

I just use A123's They are light,provide plenty of amps,last up to 1000 charges,and you don't have to remove them to charge.

Truckracer

My Feedback: (19)

There ya go ..... problem solved though they are more expensive than LiPo or PB. A123 will probably outlive other batteries by many times!

fargophil

My Feedback: (3)

Lets see, 4 8ah gel cells at $20 each or one A123 pack at $86. Think I'll stick with the gel cell.

kmeyers

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...arehouse_.html

These are 5 bucks 1100mah Life 2s1p. Two with a Y connector will out perform the gell cell with over ten amps @ 13.2 volts. The weight is 130 grams for LiFe vs 2600 grams (that's 1/20th).

Me though I wouldn't spend any money. I would use two old Lipo packs that were for some foamies no longer in my inventory.

My current starter has been changed to a deans connector into an old 4s LiPo pack that had been in a crash. It has power you literally would not believe from your posts.

It has been said that you can do what you want, but, you are asking for advice on whether or not to buy this or that old technology.

I recommend buying the new technology. Let your learning begin!

fargophil

My Feedback: (3)

Obviously I'm missing something. A gel cell is 8ah or 8000mah at 12v while the battery pack you list above would be 13.2v at 1100mah. From my understanding of basic electricity, the slightly higher voltage would spin the starter motor slightly faster but the reduced current available would allow it to spin for a shorter time with less torque?

kmeyers

Yes you are missing something. As I first posted Gell cells Pb batteries (8000 mah) are for low current operation. Emergency lights, door solenoids, and other industrial operations requiring low current. They can not operate a starter or field box for rated capacity because of voltage drop.

Look at the 1/4 inch stake on connector for proof (what do you think its limit is).

So your 20 dollars vs 86 dollars needed a reply. If you measure the voltage you use in a season of flying x time spent charging minus the hassle of 6 lb battery divided by the fact that you will someday invest in this technology anyway. You will arrive at my conclusion.

I would buy a built 4s1p Lipo pack of the 2200 mah size.

fargophil

My Feedback: (3)

If it matters in the discussion. As stated in the original question the intended use is in a car starter box to start a reasonably high compression buggy engine, Not stated but something I consider is I;m 68 years old an am not sure how long I'll be involved in this hobby. It's possible a gel cell that lasts two years may be more than I need! Different story if I was 32!
Also if gel cells are so horrible for use as a starter battery why hove they been successfully used for two decades or more?

dirtybird

My Feedback: (5)

Well I am 88,and to me you are a youngster. Hell you were born after WW2
A lead acid battery is cheap. BUT they have two disadvantages. 1) they are heavy. and 2) they have to be recharged every month or they will lose their capacity.
Years ago the only other type available was NiCds. they were lighter but they also lose their charge.So a lot of equipment was designed to use gel cells.
At one time I had more than 100 A123's. I gave a lot away. I still have about 40. I feel sorry for the rest of that have to pay this days prices.
Let me tell you about another type. Sony VTC5. Now these are what we call lipo's in a can.(same chemistry). They are about the size of a pencell and are rated 2.6AH. Four of those will give you plenty of juice to start a car'
.Now Sony wont sell them to you. They will sell them only to mfg's to be used in a protected pack. A vapor seller will sell them to you for $15 each. But I was able to get Panasonic replacement cells off ebay for $4.00 ea. I have them in an 8 cell pack that I have tested at 30A.
They held up at 30.0V for 4 minutes. Plenty of time for a flight. They produce nearly a KW. The pack weighs 8oz

kmeyers

Riding a horse was state of the art for traveling for thousands of years.
So what.

Your question interested me because a starter battery was needed by me several years ago. I thought about and came to the conclusion that I stated here. Weight, power and cost I will likely never buy new, NiCds, NiMhs or Pb for hobby purposes. I do keep getting them when I pickup something second hand and they are included, but, this only reinforces my conclusion.

You may do what ever you want. I thought I could be helpful. I am not interested in an argument or debate on the subject.
Sorry if I have raised any hairs. I can be slow to pickup on the others reasoning.
Have a great day.
Ken

raptureboy

+10 on the lipo I also use a 14.1 v lipo that I got from hobbyking for about $20 charge it maybe 2 times a season. It will turn over my 20 cc gas engines so fast it is like they are idling. I made a a custom base for it and just charge it attached to the starter. Its a cheap used sullivan so if something goes wrong no great loss. Besides being lightweight, portable, and cheap you can dispose of the battery when no longer useful in the trash. Can't do that with lead batteries. But as always, your results may vary and no endorsement, or warranty is implied.

Prop_Washer2

My Feedback: (26)

I added a 6 cell Lipo to my Sullivan Dynatron at 22.2v...it will spin a BIG Gasser no sweat..!! Sullivan has been on record that their starters will handle 24v so a 6-Cell or Two (2) 3-Cells in series are lightweight and powerful. Charge once every few months and you are good to go...

Keep the old lead acid or gel cell handy for your boat, great anchor...

drac1

My Feedback: (4)

Cell phones don't use LiPo's. They use LiIons.

Truckracer

My Feedback: (19)

[QUOTE=fargophil;12116095
Also if gel cells are so horrible for use as a starter battery why hove they been successfully used for two decades or more?[/QUOTE]

There is nothing horrible about gel cell batteries. I still use them in several different types of equipment (not hobby related) and they fit those applications well. Most of us start our cars every day with a lead acid battery and even some of these have gel cell construction. Not every gel cell / lead application has a practical replacement. The point is there are new technologies available today that are more convenient to use while offering superior performance and usually at a lower cost. Many of the newer battery types offer a longer life span and vastly superior current capability than previous types. Take your pick as more than ever before, we now have choices.

Just a young pup here at 67!

rgburrill

The best batteries I've found for flight/starter boxes are maintenance free motorcycle or garden tractor batteries from Autozone. I tried gelcell once and that was enough. Yes lead/acid is heavy but so it a gallon of fuel. But how far do you really have to carry it?

kmeyers

Thanks for the help. Drac 1

Quotable source:​wikpedia
'These cells are sometimes known as "LiPo", however, from the technological point of view, they are the same as the ones marketed simply as "Li-ion", as the underlying electrochemistry is the same."

To reduce confusion LiFe and LiPo are all I use in a general discussion. These chemistrys are quit different.

The weight to energy density and discharge current are my main considerations. If safety is factored in then LiFe usually wins. I find though that the original "vent with flame" has been so reduced that safe handling is possible.