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High wind technique

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Old 03-13-2011, 09:37 AM
  #1
markhamregular
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Default High wind technique

After my first solo flight with instructor next to me, yesterday I had my first solo flight all by myself.
It was great but there was a cross-wind and I had to land on the grass.
Is there any site where I can find good useful techniques such as flying in high winds or cross winds.
I use the sim, but I am learning with trial and error.
Basic simple tips to fly even without a video are best than trial and error.

Any tip wil be appreciated. Thanks.

What a great hobby! I am in for life.
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Old 03-13-2011, 09:59 AM
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Default RE: High wind technique

Learn how to crab.

Tom
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:20 AM
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Default RE: High wind technique

Learn to use the rudder. Most new guys forget this control function as soon as they leave the ground. When flying in a cross wind, practice flying the airplane perfectly paralell to the runway. You will soon see how much you are being blown in or out depending on the wind direction. Use rudder in the opposite direction that the wind is blowing you. I was practicing my IMAC sequence on Friday with a cross wind and had to hold 1/2 rudder stick to fly a strait pass. You will also notice that your airplane will change in pitch and roll trim while holding rudder. If your TX has mixing you can mix that out but that is a very long winded topic by its self. Good luck
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:37 AM
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Default RE: High wind technique

Here a link: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_96...tm.htm#9646320
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Old 03-13-2011, 12:56 PM
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Default RE: High wind technique

Check all these related thread:

http://search.rcuniverse.com/search....hwhere=subject

Crosswind coming onto your face is cleaner and less turbulent than crosswind coming from your back.

Besides, the first type will push the tail first and will point the propeller away from the pits, while the second one will tend to point the nose toward the flight line.

That is particularly bad during take-offs with taildraggers from right to left.

Practice all you can,.............without being afraid of the wind; no matter what your clubmates may say.
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Old 03-13-2011, 01:32 PM
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Default RE: High wind technique

With trainers it's not the end of the world if you just let them weathervane and land them into the wind at an angle to the runway. If there is enough wind to really make you drift then your landing roll probably won't be 20 feet. That's enough time to get it turned before you are in the grass. It's not the "right" way to land, but it works and for a new pilot it gets you into the air on a day when you might decide not to try it. There is also the benefit of not having to worry about a wind gust flipping over that dihedral wing and causing a cartwheel.
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Old 03-13-2011, 05:47 PM
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Default RE: High wind technique

I have become quite adept at windy flying here in Corpus Christi. It is always windy here. When the winds are straight down the runway it is actually pretty fun to fly in heavy wind. As for x-winds that is another story. When flying a trainer you are limited on what the plane can handle due to limitiations with control surfaces and the lack of maneuverability. If the winds are strong then landing at an angle on the runway is not a bad idea but to be honest it is a crutch and wil not help you be a better pilot. I spent a great deal of time learning the proper techniques for landing in a cross wind and I used my old trainer as a guinea pig. The method I found that works the best is to let the plane weathervane into the wind and crab almost all the way down final. It will naturally do this and it is easier not to fight it on the long shallow final that Trainers prefer. As you near the runway this is where it gets tricky. You will need to use the rudder to align the nose with the runway. As you feed in the rudder you will need to add opposite aileron to counteract the rolling caused by adding in the rudder. this type of configuration is going to cause one main gear to touch down before the others. This is a proper cross wind landing and is used in full scale flying as well.

Here is a good example. It is a bit extreme but you can see what I was talking about.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUDpFp4Fo70&feature=related[/youtube]
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Old 03-14-2011, 02:33 AM
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Default RE: High wind technique

Thanks for the threads and tips, but I am new and I have trouble using the rudder after take off.
Is adding a little power always good on high winds or crosswinds? I find that it helps in the sim.
Also, for those that are still rudder-challenged, is taking a parallel patern on landing a good idea?
By parallel, I mean flying a landing patern closer to the wind, so eventually you will end up on the runway.

Thanks,
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Old 03-14-2011, 03:08 AM
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Default RE: High wind technique

Stick and Rudder : An Explanation of the Art of Flying, WolfgangLangewiesche

You'll find your answer in there.




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Old 03-14-2011, 01:05 PM
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Default RE: High wind technique

All those landing techniques including crabing that I read about make sense if you have 5 minutes on final on a real plane.
I find it difficult to see how an RC flyer can do all that in the 15 seconds we have on final.
This is NOT for a beginner.
I'd rather pack and go home on a strong wing or crosswind. At least for the moment.

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Old 03-14-2011, 01:33 PM
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Default RE: High wind technique

Harry,
 I'm not going to argue with what you are saying about what's in the book. But when it comes to teaching beginner's I prefer to have a crosswind when I'm teaching them. I've found that it's easier to teach them correctly the first them than to try and re-teach/unlearn bad habits they picked up because they weren't taught correctly the first time. It grinds my teeth all the time when I see people that were never taught how to use the left stick properly when they were learning to fly.   [:@]

Harry,
I'm not addressing this at you in any way. You just gave me the opportunity to vent my gripe.

Ken
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Old 03-14-2011, 03:23 PM
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Default RE: High wind technique


Quote:
ORIGINAL: harryangus
All those landing techniques including crabing that I read about make sense if you have 5 minutes on final on a real plane.
I find it difficult to see how an RC flyer can do all that in the 15 seconds we have on final.
I dunno about you, but it really doesn't take me that long to "crab", or "slip", or anything else.

Quote:
This is NOT for a beginner.
So why, as a beginner, did you ask the question? You asked for resources of information about how to handle high crosswinds. You were given some. Without referencing a SINGLE point of ANY of those resources...in other words, you didn't bring up "Page X of ___ book" or "The moment during technique ___ where the pilot ____s
...no, without so much as a DISCUSSION beyond telling every experienced pilot in this thread why they're wrong, that there isn't time to do as they suggest, you've just decided a beginner can't do this?

Did I get that right?

Quote:
I'd rather pack and go home on a strong wing or crosswind. At least for the moment.
Certainly an option, and absolutely the right one. If you're not comfortable flying the airplane, don't fly it. Can't fault you there at all.

For what it's worth, Langewiesche's explanation of the topic reveals that the airplane is unaware of any wind, cross or otherwise...and as a result, the technique for following a desired ground track (which is, ultimately, all you're trying to do) is the same REGARDLESS of constraints..including time.

Quite an informative work on the subject...for those genuinely interested in learning something useful about it.


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Old 03-14-2011, 03:36 PM
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Default RE: High wind technique

Quote:
ORIGINAL: harryangus

All those landing techniques including crabing that I read about make sense if you have 5 minutes on final on a real plane.
I find it difficult to see how an RC flyer can do all that in the 15 seconds we have on final.
This is NOT for a beginner.
I'd rather pack and go home on a strong wing or crosswind. At least for the moment.

And, if you don't think RC flight doesn't look like the video presented in this thread, well, guess what... it does. And it didn't take two minutes, either. Although it was an extreme example, it IS an example of a crabbing approach and final. It is simple to set up, but takes a moment of thought on the downwind prior to the turn to base, that you make the adjustments necessary to actually make the turns, then apply and hold the right amount of rudder to make a safe landing.

This is not something that you 'just get', it's something you practice and learn to do. Nothing in this hobby is done by osmosis, it is a learned process done over and over again. And, guess what, it's both challenging AND rewarding... as well as fun!!

You can go home, or you can stick around and learn something.

Granted, there are times when we have all just gone home. It takes some experience to learn your limitations, then either stick with them, or learn to overcome them. Either way, it is, as I said, both challenging AND rewarding. There is no wrong answer. If you want a challenge, then stick around. If you just want to fly and avoid problems, then, do as you wish. As I said, there are no wrong answers here. A lot of us prefer the challenge, though.

CGr.
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Old 03-14-2011, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: RCKen

Harry,
I'm not going to argue with what you are saying about what's in the book. But when it comes to teaching beginner's I prefer to have a crosswind when I'm teaching them. I've found that it's easier to teach them correctly the first them than to try and re-teach/unlearn bad habits they picked up because they weren't taught correctly the first time. It grinds my teeth all the time when I see people that were never taught how to use the left stick properly when they were learning to fly. [:@]

Harry,
I'm not addressing this at you in any way. You just gave me the opportunity to vent my gripe.

Ken
I wasn't taught rudder for a very long time. After I started with a new instructor for advanced flying. I found out later my instructor wasn't very good with the rudder so it wasn't taught. Every time I asked about it I was told not to worry about it yet. Now I can't fly without using the rudder and I don't even know I'm doing it. Not all planes are prone to weather veining. Friday I was flying a small pattern plane and a 2 meter pattern plane in a very heavy cross wind. I pretty much didn't use or need to use the rudder at all. This was the first time I have gotten to fly these two planes in a heavy cross wind, I was very pleased. High wing planes I had to learn to drop the wing and add rudder. It took some time but I got it figured out. When I learned I was flying at a field that was almost always a cross wind.
I could have loaded up and gone home but I knew I was going to fly that field and others with cross wind so I decided to learn. You don't need to really land to learn, you can shoot the approach over and over until the inputs sink into your head, let your instructor do the landing until you figure it out.
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Old 03-14-2011, 04:00 PM
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Default RE: High wind technique

Boulton,

I read the references. I just think I am not ready yet. I don't know why I would have to give references. This is not an essay.
Instead of intending to do something I find a little difficult for the moment, I chose to wait.
I did not ignore any of the tips people gave me. Actually, I always tell them I apreciate it, and I read them.
Some people learn faster than others.
20 years ago, I started this hobby and I quit immediately after a crash.
I do not want this to happen again. I am doing well and I intend to go step by step.
I asked the question because I thought there was an easier route for the beginner instead of the expert crabing.

Thanks for your input.




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Old 03-14-2011, 04:17 PM
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Default RE: High wind technique

Gray beard,

I had the same answer from my instructor about waiting to learn to use the rudder.
The real problem is time. On final, an RC fyler is really short on time.
When you are a beginner, you can get nervous and make the wrong move.
When you have altitude, it's fine, but when you're close to the ground mistakes can mean using glue.
This is what I am trying to avoid.
As for the crosswind, apparently there is no other way than to use the rudder.
So, I guess I will be patient and wait for my time when I am ready.

Thanks
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Old 03-14-2011, 04:36 PM
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Default RE: High wind technique

It is certainly not absolutely necessary to use the rudder when landing in a crosswind, though your landings won't be especially pretty. All you have to do is crab into the wind enough to keep your plane flying straight along the runway on your final approach. You don't need rudder to crab: just turn into the wind a little and neutralize the controls. You can practice getting the right angle for crabbing while flying. You'll land with the nose pointed a little into the wind, so the plane may be a little squirrely when first on the ground. A touch of rudder (to yaw downwind) just as you touch down will fix that, but it's not necessary.

It's easier to do this when the wind is blowing toward you, because then the nose of the plane will be pointed toward the far side of the runway. It can be a little intimidating when it's the other way around.
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Old 03-14-2011, 05:59 PM
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Default RE: High wind technique


Quote:
ORIGINAL: harryangus

Gray beard,

I had the same answer from my instructor about waiting to learn to use the rudder.
The real problem is time. On final, an RC fyler is really short on time.
When you are a beginner, you can get nervous and make the wrong move.
When you have altitude, it's fine, but when you're close to the ground mistakes can mean using glue.
This is what I am trying to avoid.
As for the crosswind, apparently there is no other way than to use the rudder.
So, I guess I will be patient and wait for my time when I am ready.

Thanks
As an instructor I do teach rudder even before solo but I do it up high, not at the time I'm about to teach landing. After what I went through myself I want a student to know what the rudder will do. Rudder takes time so I understand your problem and cross wind landing seems to be a big stumbling stone for new pilots. The time to learn is the same day you are able to do a figure 8 up high. Most of my students ask about rudder use so I have them climb then kick in some aileron and elevator then just a touch of rudder to see what the plane does. For those that don't have the rudder down so well I have them fly over to the windward side of the runway and allow the wind to drift them over to the center of the field and land. As long as the plane isn't weather vaining and just getting pushed I'm good with that. By this time they have aileron down pretty good. As an instructor I only go as fast as the student can progress.
How well does your instructor handle a cross wind?? Where I train now if the student can't handle the cross wind I have enough room to have him come in wide and land into the wind or close enough to it to make little difference. There ar a lot of ways to beat the wind but I would still have you shooting the approach up high just to teach you how controls work. A lot doesw depend on who isw teaching you. I teach landing with just the throttle, rudder and elevator. The only thing the ailerons are used for is to keep the plane level. Most of my students land much better then I do. No, I have no reason for this but it's true. I always took off better then my instructor??
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Old 03-14-2011, 06:10 PM
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Default RE: High wind technique

The best thing you can do is practice correcting for wind at altitude. It will become more automatic the more you do it. You will find as you get better you will suddenly have a lot more time on landing. The key to any good landing is the approach. If you have a good stable approach, even in wind, you will be able to concentrate on adjusting for the wind and not fighting it. As said before this comes with time and practice. Try to find someone you trust to fly your plane in wind, and have them help you practice when you feel a little more comfortable with approaches and landings. Another good idea is to read up on approaches, the full scale procedures are applicable to models and will help you learn how to establish a good solid approach, and once you learn that, landings will suddenly get a lot easier.
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Old 03-14-2011, 06:12 PM
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Default RE: High wind technique


Quote:
ORIGINAL: CGRetired
You can go home, or you can stick around and learn something.
Oh come now, CGR...where's my third option? You know...the benefit of acquiring an education with the work and time investment of giving up and going home.
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Old 03-14-2011, 06:16 PM
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Default RE: High wind technique


Quote:
ORIGINAL: harryangus
I read the references. I just think I am not ready yet. I don't know why I would have to give references. This is not an essay.
I take it then you read Stick and Rudder before I suggested it, and found it lacking in its ability to convey proper technique for maintaining a constant ground heading through wind?

Would you care to explain why the author's explanation is flawed, or what part of it you didn't understand? Many of us would be happy to help if it's an issue of not understanding, and even happier to learn why and where we're wrong if it's an issue of inaccurate information.


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Old 03-14-2011, 06:26 PM
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Default RE: High wind technique

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Gray Beard


I teach landing with just the throttle, rudder and elevator. The only thing the ailerons are used for is to keep the plane level.
Harryangus,

Here you have a priceless advice.

There is no need to procrastinate the learning of rudder.
As a matter of fact, flying your Avistar as Gray Beard explains above will help you much more than using ailerons for rolls and elevator to ascend and descend.
Fly with throttle and rudder as much as possible and you will learn very fast.

The dihedral of any trainer allows rolling by using only rudder.
That is called coupling and is no good for all types of planes, but using it as a learning tool, it is a good way of creating the habit of using the rudder.

Practice, practice and practice,............and don't allow the fear of damaging or loosing a plane stop your learning process.

Wind is our friend and fierce crosswinds are just friendly challenges.

http://masportaviator.com/2004/02/27/using-the-rudder/
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Old 03-14-2011, 07:22 PM
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Default RE: High wind technique

GB I think your being a little harsh. His response was that he felt this was over his head and beyond his skill/comfort level as a beginner. He apparently has a less then knowledgable instructor and is having to learn a lot on his own. I didn't read any of his posts that said anyone is wrong, just that in his opinion it is too hard for a beginner. All he has to go on is the limited training from a modeler that most likely learned how to get the plane up and down with no real aeronautical knowledge. The fields are full of amatuer flyers teaching others to fly based on their limited training. With this type of limited training even basic maneuvers can seem daunting.
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Old 03-14-2011, 07:44 PM
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Default RE: High wind technique

There is no other way to CORRECTLY and SAFELY land cross-wind without rudder. A good rule of thumb for landing is altitude is controlled with throttle, speed is controlled with elevator and direction or heading is controlled with rudder. But because crosswind causes your aircraft to roll, both ailerons AND rudder are necessary. You can always crab it in like a couple of guys have mentioned but it looks sloppy and you generally, unless you're very proficient, land on something other than the runway. Rudder allows the plane to remain relatively stable on approach so practice about two or three mistakes high and gauge how much rudder you will need for the actual approach. You will be surprised how much it helps to try this and then attempt the landing. You wont feel "lost" because you can feel what the plane does relative to the runway. Also the higher you are the more wind resistance there is so generally speaking there is less wind closer to the runway than above it. Meaning it wont be as turbulent so the practice above before landing gives you an edge. Hope this helps
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Old 03-14-2011, 09:26 PM
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Default RE: High wind technique

Heck, just train on a taildragger.  Then you'll learn to use the rudder from the get-go.  Getting it back down won't be much more of a challenge than taking it off was in that crosswind.  Far too many people forget that the left stick controls something besides the throttle.
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