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How much aileron to rudder mix?

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Old 06-20-2011, 05:36 AM
  #26
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?



DIALIN50%...experience 10 seconds of3Dflyingfor the first time whether you want to or not!

(It's my centennail post CG....let me have some fun!)

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Old 06-20-2011, 06:03 AM
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: pmerritt



DIALIN50%...experience 10 seconds of3Dflyingfor the first time whether you want to or not!

(It's my centennail post CG....let me have some fun!)


Cool! Id mix in more but I think 50% is the limit.

How much throttle for a 3D hover? Also how does this mix effect knife edge and inverted flight?

Jimmy
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Old 06-20-2011, 06:10 AM
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Lnewqban

Zero!

No mix for you yet, if ever.

Learn and practice how to use the rudder properly from the very beginning, and you will be a good pilot.

Study this article:





http://masportaviator.com/2004/02/27/using-the-rudder/

Thats a great article. Being relatively new, I did mix in some rudder with my ailerons on a switch with my DX6i. I was like sweet it does it for me. LOL I have started using the rudder on my own and it is hard to get used to. I'm learning pretty much on my own with a bit of help from my father, who is getting back into this after 20 years out of it, so he is relearning too. I have to go out and really give the stuff in the article a shot and really start to learn how to work the rudder properly. Stall turns I've done a few of but never thought to use opposite aileron during them to keep the plane level. I would just fly up slow down and flip the rudder over and it always looks a bit ugly. LOL

If anyone has any other rudder related articles to link that would be great.


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Old 06-20-2011, 07:04 AM
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

At your experience level adding "mix" is one of the worse things you can do. I have been flying for over twenty years and NEVER mixed rudder with airelon. Here is the reason why. In a coordinated turn you roll the plane which moves the rudder too. Then you relax off airelons and the rudder stops too. OOPS now you do not have a coordinated turn. The tail drops and the plane slides. All you have to do is watch many of the warbird events on dvd or top gun. It is very easy to spot if you know what to look for. A good pilot uses both sticks and can add rudderas needed to hold the tail in the proper position. You will NOT become a better pilot mixing An experienced pilot will spot your mistake quickly.

Learn how to "FLY" the plane, using both sticks to add input as needed. You will become a far better pilot that way. Some of my scale planes I have to use rudder and hold it all the way through the turn. Otherwise it won't turn. It will slide the turn looks terrible and "rookie like". Most pilots do not use rudder at all and are lost if they have a problem where if they knew how to use rudder properly they could save their plane. I have lost airelons on a couple of airplanes over the years. I could still fly the plane using rudder and safely land the plane. It takes practice to learn it but in the long run it is worth it.
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Old 06-20-2011, 07:23 AM
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

Just go for it dude. Mix away and have a blast. Isn't but one of two things going to happen anyway.

I wish I could be of some help telling you how much to mix, but personally I don't, so there isn't any point in me trying to enlighten you. There are a bunch of variables that can/would make a difference anywho.

Don't worry about the attitude comments either. Brush 'em off. Too easy to get one when everyone takes offense to you not doing what they want you to do. You asked a fairly specific question and got very little in specific answers just the normal "don't do it". Let's face it, if it does work out for you then it's all good, if not..............well you know.

Hey, good luck and have fun!
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Old 06-20-2011, 08:06 AM
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

I agree as an instructor.... I don't believe in mixes at first....not at first......it will hampper your learning curve...part of what you learn as a newbie is muscle memory...if you use a mix...you're cheating yourself in learning muscle memory....
but as also said it's your skill and your airplane.....but why ask a question in a beginners forum then ignore the advice given?
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Old 06-20-2011, 08:33 AM
  #32
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

I'd like to point out something not mentioned so far adverse/ provers yaw is a transitory state, it is really only seen while the ailerons are being applied, but usually is minimized/disappears when the turn is established. So, just like in a 1:1 scale Cessna 150/152 a TOUCH of rudder in the direction of the turn is needed then left out. To hold rudder through the turn by adding mixing is just as bad as not adding rudder in the first place, IF IT'S NEEDED

In your case, a big stick 40 doesn't have adverse or proverse yaw, it doesn't NEED rudder applied to turn properly.

To answer your op: 0%.

But in light of above; go ahead and play with it and see what you get. But you will lose the abilty to fly an axial roll.

MTC YMMV
Tom
Been teaching RC since 1995
Aero Engineer, Private SEL MEL A&P
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Old 06-20-2011, 08:36 AM
  #33
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: JimmyZep


Quote:
ORIGINAL: speedracerntrixie


Quote:
ORIGINAL: JimmyZep

Thanks John for your answer, your are all correct.

I need to hone my rudder skills but at this very early
stage some mix might make standard up in the air turns
less difficult.

I do have it on a switch.

Jimmy
Jimmy, it is obvious to me that you are a full scale pilot. Most new R/Cers don't bother with rudder in turns. As a full scale pilot I would think you would realize the importance of not developing and practicing bad habits. Mixing rudder to ailerons in any powered airplane is just bad idea. IMO what defines a good R/C pilot from a great R/C pilot is the mastery of rudder.




If this is soooooo BAD why is it offered on my radio???????????


Jimmy
Radios come with a lot of mixing, the bigger the radio the more P-mixes they have. Mixing isn't a bad thing, it just isn't used or needed on all airplanes or by all pilots. There are some fun mixes that people like to play with. On some types of planes I like to mix in spoilerons and flaperons, the mix is in the radio but a new pilot using them could put a plane in the ground in a blink of an eye. On some types of planes I use the Expo, most of my planes are pure stunt planes and Expo is my friend. I never put it in a trainer unless the student hands shake a lot, I'm talking older students. No reason to set up the snap roll switch in a trainer either. Radios today have a lot of P-mixing but it doesn't mean it's a good idea for a new pilot to be using them yet. Nothing bad in mixes, just a lot of things that are better used after a new pilot has learned to fly or used on planes that may require a bad in a plane to be mixed out.
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Old 06-20-2011, 09:30 AM
  #34
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

Dont take any of this personally. These are just toy airplanes. That being said I find that the amount of rudder needed through a turn can increase and decsrease. That is why I do not use mixes when flying twins or any bird. It is more fun to add or decrease the rudder at will thru the turn. I would definitely start out with a small percentage of mix 5 percent and work up. You are taking some of the fun out of it in my opinion. Not a bad question at all.
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Old 06-20-2011, 09:49 AM
  #35
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

Forget the mix - it will vary.
A big stick shouldn't need it, but if it is suffering from adverse yaw (which is maybe why you need rudder) just dial in some aileron differential. Most likely benefit from in in rolls as well etc.

Mike
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Old 06-20-2011, 10:00 AM
  #36
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Gray Beard

None at all. LN is completely correct, you learn to fly the plane with your own control inputs. After you learn to fly without thinking it becomes second nature when you turn. I have added the mix to one plane, a Giant Scale Bipe I flew at IMAA shows and had it set on a switch. After take off I would flip the switch and just fly the plane with aileron and elevator for those smooth scale turns. Most the time I forgot to flip the switch so it really didn't mater. It was something I had in case of nerves when flying in front of thousands of people. I discovered that didn't bother me either so the mix has never been used again.
Learn to fly the plane first then start thinking mixes.
How do you give it rudder after the plane is banked and the ailerons are back to neutral? Rudder mix should be used only on planes which cannot have enough aileron differential. But it does not negate the requirement for a small amount of rudder to prevent it from slipping in a turn.
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Old 06-20-2011, 10:04 AM
  #37
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

Quote:
So, just like in a 1:1 scale Cessna 150/152 a TOUCH of rudder in the direction of the turn is needed then left out.

A bit off topic, but I owned a Cessna 150/152 and if anything you have this backwards.  They need little or no rudder to initiate a turn, but they do need some rudder to prevent it from slipping in the turn, even after the ailerons are in neutral.
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Old 06-20-2011, 10:39 AM
  #38
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: JimmyZep

How much aileron to rudder mix should you start with?

Im very new 5 flights, I have a GP Big Stik 40 and Im thinking
a mix would help on standard type turns.

How much % wise rudder is a good place to start?

Thanks Jimmy
None at all.

It simply does not need it.

Your stick has NO adverse yaw at all, that you'll need to correct with a mix.

Without a mix it flies co-ordinated turns all by itself.

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Old 06-20-2011, 10:43 AM
  #39
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: JimmyZep


Quote:
ORIGINAL: pmerritt



DIAL IN 50%...experience 10 seconds of 3D flying for the first time whether you want to or not!

(It's my centennail post CG....let me have some fun!)


Cool! Id mix in more but I think 50% is the limit.

How much throttle for a 3D hover? Also how does this mix effect knife edge and inverted flight?

Jimmy
Jimmy he's joking...

The stick WILL Knife Edge, but the mix will tend to work against you holding it in a knife edge.

Since the wings have a bit of dihedral and the fuselage is not really an airfoil, you have to work the sticks to keep a knife edge happening.

The mix will complicate matters greatly.

Even a rudder to elevator mix in inadvisable for a stick.

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Old 06-20-2011, 10:44 AM
  #40
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: pflynn73

Dont take any of this personally. These are just toy airplanes.
Some may be, but when the value of a plane exceeds that of a good used car, they can hardly be called "toys"
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Old 06-20-2011, 11:21 AM
  #41
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

They're toys, expensive ones. But toys none the less.

Tim
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Old 06-20-2011, 11:27 AM
  #42
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

toy   /tɔɪ/ Show Spelled

–noun
1. an object, often a small representation of something familiar, as an animal or person, for children or others to play with; plaything.
2. a thing or matter of little or no value or importance; a trifle.
3. something that serves for or as if for diversion, rather than for serious pratical use.



Nope...

Above a certain cost, we take our "toys" seriously...
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Old 06-20-2011, 12:13 PM
  #43
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

My daily driver is an 1100 dollar car. My toy planes definitely cost more than my ride. Not taking anything away from our hobby. But, these are toy planes that we can crash w/o dying. If a guy wants to play with mixes go for it. I wouldnt, but, not much damage can realistically happen. Maybe a pile of balsa at most.

I would call a Corvette a toy as well. Nothing against this hobby I love.
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Old 06-20-2011, 12:27 PM
  #44
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[:@]
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Old 06-20-2011, 12:44 PM
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

I think the point he was making is that adverse yaw generally occurs as the plane is rolling while the ailerons are deflected. Once the ailerons are returned to neutral and the plane stops rolling (at some new bank angle) then the forces of adverse roll disappear.

Mark Drela (an aeronautics Professor at MIT) wrote a very good article on this.

Spiral stability of the airframe (sort of determined by the rudder area, wing dihedral and placement, COG etc ) then dictate how much if any, rudder needs to be held during a turn.

Aileron differential also introduces unwanted camber changes so it's not perfect either.

Mixes are great to reduce your workload and hide little things but they tend to be reasonably specific and tend to only fix one problem while creating another problem (hopefully smaller and less important)

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Old 06-20-2011, 12:54 PM
  #46
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

Correct, however most verticle stabilizers are not perfect at weathervaning in a turn, so even with no adverse yaw it will need some rudder to prevent the tail from slipping or sliding toward the center of the turn.  This can be negated by moving the CG back, but then it may skid in a high bank angle turn.






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Old 06-20-2011, 01:42 PM
  #47
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

Two out of three of those pretty much describe this hobby!
Quote:
ORIGINAL: opjose

toy   /tɔɪ/ Show Spelled

–noun
1. an object, often a small representation of something familiar, as an animal or person, for children or others to play with; plaything.
2. a thing or matter of little or no value or importance; a trifle.
3. something that serves for or as if for diversion, rather than for serious pratical use.



Nope...

Above a certain cost, we take our "toys" seriously...
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Old 06-20-2011, 01:51 PM
  #48
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: pmerritt

Two out of three of those pretty much describe this hobby!
Not for me!

1. Many of my planes are ANYTHING but "small".
2. None of them are of little to no value nor a trifle
3. Given that I purchased a new large vehicle specifically for my "toys" I'd never call them a diversion.
4. My Insurance agent stopped calling them "toys" the second she saw two of them.


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Old 06-20-2011, 02:00 PM
  #49
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: N429EM

Using mixed rudder in calm or mild breezes will help the LOOK of your turns. But, won't help your skill level.
Moderate to high wind conditions will require rudder know-how to make those coordinated turns look nice.
Learn it early. You will thank yourself down the road.

EJ

Pretty much the same thing can be said about down and right engine thrust, but the vast majority of you use it anyway.

Bill, Waco Brother #1
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Old 06-20-2011, 02:04 PM
  #50
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Default RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

A lot of the kits and arfs have it built in the firewall so it's not really an option if the builder follows the instructions. With rudder mixing, it is a user selectable option.

CGr
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