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  1. #1
    JimmyZep's Avatar
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    How much aileron to rudder mix?

    How much aileron to rudder mix should you start with?

    Im very new 5 flights, I have a GP Big Stik 40 and Im thinking
    a mix would help on standard type turns.

    How much % wise rudder is a good place to start?

    Thanks Jimmy
    Fuel Forever!!!

  2. #2
    Lnewqban's Avatar
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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

    Zero!

    No mix for you yet, if ever.

    Learn and practice how to use the rudder properly from the very beginning, and you will be a good pilot.

    Study this article:

    http://masportaviator.com/2004/02/27/using-the-rudder/

    Lnewqban - "God will not look you over for medals, degrees or diplomas, but for scars. He has achieved success who has worked well, laughed often, and loved much." - Elbert Hubbard

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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

    None at all. LN is completely correct, you learn to fly the plane with your own control inputs. After you learn to fly without thinking it becomes second nature when you turn. I have added the mix to one plane, a Giant Scale Bipe I flew at IMAA shows and had it set on a switch. After take off I would flip the switch and just fly the plane with aileron and elevator for those smooth scale turns. Most the time I forgot to flip the switch so it really didn't mater. It was something I had in case of nerves when flying in front of thousands of people. I discovered that didn't bother me either so the mix has never been used again.
    Learn to fly the plane first then start thinking mixes.
    Drinking and driving are illegal, why do bars have parking lots
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  4. #4
    JimmyZep's Avatar
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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

    You guy's are right and I thank you for your response, BUTT what
    % should I start with?

    Once I get used to flying a little more Ill expand my learning
    but i thought it might be a little easier with some programmed rudder once
    im up and doing circles.

    Thanks Jimmy
    Fuel Forever!!!

  5. #5
    JohnBuckner's Avatar
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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

    My fellow responders are correct of course Jimmy especially at this stage of your climb up the aerial skills latter, However there are certain types of aircraft that certainly can benefit from some degree of Aileron to Rudder mix either mechanical or electronic.

    This in no ways implys a copout on the part of the pilot either. As a matter of fact most people do not realize that a high percentage of our full scale fleet also employs various forms of mechanical aileron to rudder mixing which includes much of the single engine modern pipers as well as many Cessnas.

    The primary purpose of this mix is to minimise adverse yaw. This is the tendency for the airplane to yaw away from the direction from which it is banked, caused by the downward moving aileron to produce more drag than the upward moving one.

    Now before we go on yes there are also other ways to minimise the adverse yaw via aileron differential or even aileron design such as a slotted Friese types but for the purposes of this discussion rudder is just an inflight trimming device to minimise this unwanted yaw. Also keep in mind this does not address yawing as a result of P factor which occurs when speed is low and at a high deck angle and high power, this is a different discussion.

    Now There are certain types of airplanes that can benefit from this mix and there are others that will not benefit.

    Typically high wing types will benefit and low wing or mid wing types will not. Heavy wing mass airplanes such as multi engine types will greatly benefit. These please note are just generalizations and individual types will vary.

    A prime example of a type that will greatly benefit is a cub if it is more or less scale especially with that big barn door aileron on those high aspect ratio wings. This is worse if no aileron differential has been employed either by mechanical linkage or electronically.

    If one chooses to try a bit of aileron to rudder mix Then if the airplane is a high wing perhaps 15 to 20% will work just fine and the differance will be noticible. Most would say it should be applied through a switch which really does not matter except perhaps to be able to disconnect the mix for certain types of airobatic manuvers.

    John

    \"Keep your controllines tight\"

  6. #6
    JimmyZep's Avatar
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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

    Thanks John for your answer, your areall correct.

    I need to hone my rudder skills but at this very early
    stage some mix might make standard up in the air turns
    less difficult.

    I do have it on a switch.

    Jimmy
    Fuel Forever!!!

  7. #7

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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

    I didn't want to mention a number but the most I have ever used was 10%. I started at 5% and worked my way up after testing flight after flight. I was just out flying a new Cub Friday and just used the rudder as needed to smooth out the turns. Rudder is your friend. I was taught to just use rudder, elevator and throttle when landing so it's second nature to just use the rudder.
    Adding a mix to a trainer is something I would never do, they are called trainers for a reason.
    Drinking and driving are illegal, why do bars have parking lots
    Daisy Air Guns, keeping kids off your lawn for 100 years

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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

    I'll bet that you argue with your instructor if you don't like the answer !!!! ENJOY !!! RED

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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

    ORIGINAL: Gray Beard

    Adding a mix to a trainer is something I would never do, they are called trainers for a reason.
    Remarkable statement!!

    Your brain, Jimmy, is the ultimate control coordinator,..........and it is much more capable than what you can imagine.
    Lnewqban - "God will not look you over for medals, degrees or diplomas, but for scars. He has achieved success who has worked well, laughed often, and loved much." - Elbert Hubbard

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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

    been back at it for 7years now and still havent mixed my ailerons and rudder so its not really needed, learn the basics then start mixing

  11. #11
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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?


    ORIGINAL: JimmyZep

    Thanks John for your answer, your areall correct.

    I need to hone my rudder skills but at this very early
    stage some mix might make standard up in the air turns
    less difficult.

    I do have it on a switch.

    Jimmy
    Jimmy, it is obvious to me that you are a full scale pilot. Most new R/Cers don't bother with rudder in turns. As a full scale pilot I would think you would realize the importance of not developing and practicing bad habits. Mixing rudder to ailerons in any powered airplane is just bad idea. IMO what defines a good R/C pilot from a great R/C pilot is the mastery of rudder.

    Of course it's true, I read it on the Internet.

  12. #12
    JimmyZep's Avatar
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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?


    ORIGINAL: red head

    I'll bet that you argue with your instructor if you don't like the answer !!!! ENJOY !!! RED

    Thats out of line!

    Jimmy
    Fuel Forever!!!

  13. #13
    JimmyZep's Avatar
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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?


    ORIGINAL: speedracerntrixie


    ORIGINAL: JimmyZep

    Thanks John for your answer, your areall correct.

    I need to hone my rudder skills but at this very early
    stage some mix might make standard up in the air turns
    less difficult.

    I do have it on a switch.

    Jimmy
    Jimmy, it is obvious to me that you are a full scale pilot. Most new R/Cers don't bother with rudder in turns. As a full scale pilot I would think you would realize the importance of not developing and practicing bad habits. Mixing rudder to ailerons in any powered airplane is just bad idea. IMO what defines a good R/C pilot from a great R/C pilot is the mastery of rudder.




    If this is soooooo BAD why is it offered on my radio???????????


    Jimmy
    Fuel Forever!!!

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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?


    ORIGINAL: JimmyZep


    ORIGINAL: red head

    I'll bet that you argue with your instructor if you don't like the answer !!!! ENJOY !!! RED

    Thats out of line!

    Jimmy
    yeah, hard headed as some people may be, snide comments aren't needed.i hate trying to use rudder to smooth out turns, but use it anyway. maybe more so than ailerons. you want to do something more interesting, use your rudder to make your turns and use the ailerons to smooth out the bank. sounds freaky, but makes you think more about using the ailerons for the banking portion of the turn only. if you are just learning to fly, you should probably be flying big boring boxes around the pattern only anyway. maybe some figure 8's to get used to both directional turns. practicing with the rudder will get you ready for those squirrely take offs in tail draggers too. many pilots that i have seen in a taildragger plane thaqt can't use the rudder are dancing all over the runway. those that can, keep 'em straight.you eventually use the rudder for more of the flight envelope than you would imagine. i could only suggest learning as early as you can. try flying the plane with rudder only unless you get in a sticky situation. the planes you fly early on will turn just fine with only the rudder.
    The force may be with you, but gravity is stronger.
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  15. #15
    N429EM's Avatar
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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

    Using mixed rudder in calm or mild breezes will help the LOOK of your turns. But, won't help your skill level.
    Moderate to high wind conditions will require rudder know-how to make those coordinated turns look nice.
    Learn it early. You will thank yourself down the road.

    EJ
    CMPro Swallow EX90 Saito FA91s; Viper 500 TT GP42; H9 F22 Raptor OS 50SX; H9 P51 Mustang Saito FA80
    SAITO Club member 511

  16. #16
    speedracerntrixie's Avatar
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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?


    ORIGINAL: JimmyZep


    ORIGINAL: speedracerntrixie


    ORIGINAL: JimmyZep

    Thanks John for your answer, your areall correct.

    I need to hone my rudder skills but at this very early
    stage some mix might make standard up in the air turns
    less difficult.

    I do have it on a switch.

    Jimmy
    Jimmy, it is obvious to me that you are a full scale pilot. Most new R/Cers don't bother with rudder in turns. As a full scale pilot I would think you would realize the importance of not developing and practicing bad habits. Mixing rudder to ailerons in any powered airplane is just bad idea. IMO what defines a good R/C pilot from a great R/C pilot is the mastery of rudder.




    If this is soooooo BAD why is it offered on my radio???????????


    Jimmy

    Some airplanes are prone to adverse yaw when ailerons are applied. Usually it is an airplane with long wingspan and barn door ailerons or a sailplane. In most cases aileron differential will cure the adverse yaw. The problem with mixing rudder to aileron is that everytime you give an aileron command you also get rudder even when it is not needed. Imagine coming in for a landing and all the sudden a wing drops. You give an aileron command and get some yaw at the same time. Your wings are level now but you are no longer lined up to the runway. Even worse, you are a little slow and give the aileron control and the rudder induces a sharp stall.


    Bottom line, if a student were to bring me an airplane to teach him on and it had ail to rudder mix, I would have him take it out or I would not fly the airplane. I myself have 35 years of flying R/C experience and others that have advised you have 20+, you are getting sound advise.

    Of course it's true, I read it on the Internet.

  17. #17
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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

    ORIGINAL: JimmyZep

    If this is soooooo BAD why is it offered on my radio???????????

    Jimmy
    Jimmy,

    It is not BAD in an absolute manner.

    Radio manufacturers can and provide all the flexibility and combinations that someone with experience and special skills may want to have.

    Your radio has the feature and you can use it; however, it is not the best thing for the development of your skills and gain of knowledge of what is happening to your airplane in the air.

    The example regarding landing explained above is very clear about a particular situation in which the mix of two control surfaces is non-desirable, for the simple reason that only one is necessary at that moment (ailerons or roll control).

    When you progress and try crosswind landings, the mix will be in your way again, since roll and yaw controls must be independent from each other (and very active in any direction, to counteract gusts).

    When you get bored of making round circles right side up and try the same circles in inverted flight, your good old mix will work dis-coordinating your turns.

    If you ever try slow rolls, the mix will be once again working against you, since the roll should be constant while the rudder moves from one extreme to the other during the whole maneuver.

    Will the mix help your turns look nice during the next few flights? Yes, they will be automatically coordinated, if the percentage is properly input.
    Will it help you to become an awesome RC pilot? Not so much.
    Lnewqban - "God will not look you over for medals, degrees or diplomas, but for scars. He has achieved success who has worked well, laughed often, and loved much." - Elbert Hubbard

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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

    Mix away! I have found 15% to be about right. Modern radios make it a breeze to set up. Don't feel you need to manually add rudder to coordinate your turns on day one, month one, or even year one! Don't worry about it. When you are ready to start playing with the rudder, do it. And don't buy all of the RC false bravado. It's just a hobby for nerds sake!

    Kurt


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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

    Seeing the attitude...what the hell, Dial in 50% and don't forget to stop by the local grocery store and get some of those extra strength trash bags!
    Intelligence is similar to a dress code. Dont attend a black tie affair wearing cutoffs and a tank top. Know your facts

  20. #20
    JimmyZep's Avatar
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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

    Yes Im am getting some attitude for asking a simple question.

    Maby that will be it for me, asking question here!

    Jimmy
    Fuel Forever!!!

  21. #21
    Moderator CGRetired's Avatar
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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

    It's not the asking that's the problem, it's your unwillingness to accept a reasonable answer. That's the attitude. How many times should the question be answered with the same information by different folks before you accept that it's not a good idea, yet.

    The suggestions have been to not add rudder/aileron mix to a trainer.

    We don't know what radio you have, but it obviously has all sorts of capabilities for mixing all sorts of things. Some guys will add slight throttle when adding up elevator. Heck, if you had retracts, you could probably figure out how to set up an automatic aileron roll when raising the landing gear.

    Possible? Sure.
    Practical? Probably not.
    Can you do it? Sure.
    Should you do it? Probably not.

    Just because it's there doesn't mean you should use it. As so may have already suggested, adding mixes like this during training with a trainer is not the way to go. Trainers are designed to be just that... train you how to fly RC. Wait till you have your second plane, one that isn't a basic trainer, but an "advanced" trainer, and add whatever mixes you want.

    CGr.
    Skylark 70 - OS .75 AX; Excelleron 90 - OS 1.20 AX; Venus II - OS 1.20 AX; And, I still fly my trainer, Hanger 9 Alpha - OS .46 FX! Some electrics. Airtronics RD8000 - Spektrum DX7 - DX6i. AMA 705964.
    Semper Paratus!

  22. #22
    JimmyZep's Avatar
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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?



    Maby you should read the 1st post, its a Big Stik 40 not a trainer.

    My 2nd plane and next time out Ill have 15% mix only in the air not landing or taking off.

    Jimmy

    Fuel Forever!!!

  23. #23
    Moderator CGRetired's Avatar
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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

    I'm not talking about your or anyone's first post, I'm responding to your comment about attitude. So many have given you advice. You can either take it or not. Saying that you won't post here any longer is an emotional response because you didn't get the answer you wanted to get.

    This is what you said:

    Im very new 5 flights, I have a GP Big Stik 40 and Im thinking
    a mix would help on standard type turns.
    You're the one that said you are very new with five flights. We're saying that you are to new to play with such mixes... yet.

    But,we realize that you want to play with your settings, and that's not a problem. We're just saying that at times, some settings are just not appropriate. Do what you wish with your adverse yaw situation. Someone answered 15%. So try it and see that happens. Have at it. Enjoy your big stick.

    CGr.
    Skylark 70 - OS .75 AX; Excelleron 90 - OS 1.20 AX; Venus II - OS 1.20 AX; And, I still fly my trainer, Hanger 9 Alpha - OS .46 FX! Some electrics. Airtronics RD8000 - Spektrum DX7 - DX6i. AMA 705964.
    Semper Paratus!

  24. #24

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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

    I had a .40 big stik and I programmed 10% mix in just to try it, it did make a difference, but I rarely used it after a while, preferring to use the rudder myself. Its your plane and your the pilot, do what you want ( the wing mounts broke lose a year ago and the plane went straight in, so programming din't really matter anyway.)

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    RE: How much aileron to rudder mix?

    The more mix you have, the bigger your problems become when you start having to make cross wind landings. Best is no mix at all and if you practice using the rudder from the beginning you will quickly learn the proper technique.


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