Slowing down after landing
11-20-2011, 11:47 PM
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Slowing down after landing
How do you guys slow down your planes after touchdown. Ihave been flying for a while and havent had this issue with any of my other planes. But I have a GPExtra 300 .40 size. She flies great and landings arent bad but she comes in a bit hot sometimes and I use most of the runway to slow down.
So i am wondering what methods everyone uses to slow them down after you land.
So i am wondering what methods everyone uses to slow them down after you land.
11-21-2011, 03:18 AM
#2
RE: Slowing down after landing
Program your radio, so that once you are on the ground, at the flip of a switch BOTH ailerons go full "up" deflection. Some even use full up elevator with this combination. I fly out of a VERY tight field, where we have to drop in over a factory to land. On some planes it just builds up alot of speed & eats up our landing area fast. Allmost all of us use it on our 40-50% planes at this field. The planes will appear to have brakes & stop in a very short distance.
....Gene
....Gene
11-21-2011, 03:19 AM
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RE: Slowing down after landing
Are you flying off a hard surface or grass? Sounds like you're flying off asphalt or concrete.
The choices you have to slow down are:
1) Lower your idle
2) Reduce your prop (i.e. go from an 11x7 to a 12x6, not sure which prop you're actually using)
3) Add more elevator after touch down
4) Increase friction on your landing gear (install fuel tubing on the axles between the wheel and the wheel collar)
5) Once you're on final and you're sure you'll make it onto the runway, kill the engine.
That's the order I'd take it in.
Brad
The choices you have to slow down are:
1) Lower your idle
2) Reduce your prop (i.e. go from an 11x7 to a 12x6, not sure which prop you're actually using)
3) Add more elevator after touch down
4) Increase friction on your landing gear (install fuel tubing on the axles between the wheel and the wheel collar)
5) Once you're on final and you're sure you'll make it onto the runway, kill the engine.
That's the order I'd take it in.
Brad
11-21-2011, 03:38 AM
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RE: Slowing down after landing
I am landing on Asphalt, the idle is as low as I can get it, The prop is a 12x6 on an OS .61FX.
I will try the fuel tubing on the axles.
And I will try and set the ailerons to full up with a switch. If anyone has any input on that let me know. Im using a Spektrum DX6i radio.
As for killing the engine on final, I have thought about that but I would rather have it running just in case I need it for a go around.
I will try the fuel tubing on the axles.
And I will try and set the ailerons to full up with a switch. If anyone has any input on that let me know. Im using a Spektrum DX6i radio.
As for killing the engine on final, I have thought about that but I would rather have it running just in case I need it for a go around.
11-21-2011, 04:44 AM
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RE: Slowing down after landing
I only fly off of grass because WWI birds don't handle all that well on asphalt, but that's only my opinion.
What I would do if it was my aircraft is I'd have flaperons. On my JR it's channel 1&6 I think. Program it on your radio if you have a 5 channel or more. Once you have the throw rates evened out and the ailerons come down like flaps, then I'd give it a test flight.
I'd fly a few hundred feet off the ground then I'd hit the switch to see what it did, you don't want to hit the switch on final- you could loose control, so it's best to have plenty of air between the ground and your airplane when you test the flaperons out.
A good place to start is I'd have my flap throw go down about 10deg. That would be = to a little less than the minimum throw rate of a standard throw rate of a aileron on a trainer. You don't want the flaperons to have massive throw, you only want to slow the plane down a little giving the plane a little lift at the same time.
If you test your plane and when you hit the switch and your airplane noses up a little, slows down but the wings continue to be level, then you got it set right.
If your plane bleeds off too much speed on the landing, power up a tad more- or decrease the flaperon throw later on.
Hope I helped, that's the way I've done it in the past and I had good results- but it was on a different model. It should work on yours, I can't think of why it wouldn't?
If you are going to use fuel tubing on your axle, I'd be careful about it and only use it on a tail wheel. You don't want the problem of the plane nosing over. It would be like having the brakes constantly applied!
Using that method works well on the back part of a tri-landing gear, don't use it on the front nose gear! Tail draggers I'd do it on the tail wheel, not on the front wing axles! You don't want it "nose over" happy.
If you're not sure how to program flaperons and how to use them, ask for help at your club, I'm sure one of the elders will help you and explain everything in detail including helping you with the hands on.
Pete
What I would do if it was my aircraft is I'd have flaperons. On my JR it's channel 1&6 I think. Program it on your radio if you have a 5 channel or more. Once you have the throw rates evened out and the ailerons come down like flaps, then I'd give it a test flight.
I'd fly a few hundred feet off the ground then I'd hit the switch to see what it did, you don't want to hit the switch on final- you could loose control, so it's best to have plenty of air between the ground and your airplane when you test the flaperons out.
A good place to start is I'd have my flap throw go down about 10deg. That would be = to a little less than the minimum throw rate of a standard throw rate of a aileron on a trainer. You don't want the flaperons to have massive throw, you only want to slow the plane down a little giving the plane a little lift at the same time.
If you test your plane and when you hit the switch and your airplane noses up a little, slows down but the wings continue to be level, then you got it set right.
If your plane bleeds off too much speed on the landing, power up a tad more- or decrease the flaperon throw later on.
Hope I helped, that's the way I've done it in the past and I had good results- but it was on a different model. It should work on yours, I can't think of why it wouldn't?
If you are going to use fuel tubing on your axle, I'd be careful about it and only use it on a tail wheel. You don't want the problem of the plane nosing over. It would be like having the brakes constantly applied!
Using that method works well on the back part of a tri-landing gear, don't use it on the front nose gear! Tail draggers I'd do it on the tail wheel, not on the front wing axles! You don't want it "nose over" happy.
If you're not sure how to program flaperons and how to use them, ask for help at your club, I'm sure one of the elders will help you and explain everything in detail including helping you with the hands on.
Pete
11-21-2011, 05:04 AM
#6
RE: Slowing down after landing
Last year, on my very first outing of the year, I had problems landing very long. I kept going around and landing but the darned thing carried along way past where I intended it to land, and then it took longer than usual to slow it down.
When I taxied around to the flight line, I shut the engine down and went to pick up the plane. One of the instructor was behind me watching this (I didn't know he was there). Keep in mind that I, too, am an instructor, but after several winter months of non-flying, well, I was a tad rusty.
Anyway, he approached me and commented "That's a good idea, practicing downwind landings".
Hmmmm.... my next landings after that were much shorter.
CGr.
When I taxied around to the flight line, I shut the engine down and went to pick up the plane. One of the instructor was behind me watching this (I didn't know he was there). Keep in mind that I, too, am an instructor, but after several winter months of non-flying, well, I was a tad rusty.
Anyway, he approached me and commented "That's a good idea, practicing downwind landings".
Hmmmm.... my next landings after that were much shorter.
CGr.
11-21-2011, 05:10 AM
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RE: Slowing down after landing
ORIGINAL: CGRetired
Last year, on my very first outing of the year, I had problems landing very long. I kept going around and landing but the darned thing carried along way past where I intended it to land, and then it took longer than usual to slow it down.
When I taxied around to the flight line, I shut the engine down and went to pick up the plane. One of the instructor was behind me watching this (I didn't know he was there). Keep in mind that I, too, am an instructor, but after several winter months of non-flying, well, I was a tad rusty.
Anyway, he approached me and commented ''That's a good idea, practicing downwind landings''.
Hmmmm.... my next landings after that were much shorter.
CGr.
Last year, on my very first outing of the year, I had problems landing very long. I kept going around and landing but the darned thing carried along way past where I intended it to land, and then it took longer than usual to slow it down.
When I taxied around to the flight line, I shut the engine down and went to pick up the plane. One of the instructor was behind me watching this (I didn't know he was there). Keep in mind that I, too, am an instructor, but after several winter months of non-flying, well, I was a tad rusty.
Anyway, he approached me and commented ''That's a good idea, practicing downwind landings''.
Hmmmm.... my next landings after that were much shorter.
CGr.
LMAO!
That's OK, you were teaching others that instructors are human too. Can't tell you how many times I've forgot to pull my antenna out on my 72Mhz radios! I was on a take off roll once and just got it off the ground when I noticed my antenna wasn't pulled out!
It definitely was a CRS moment!
Happens to the best of us I guess.Pete
11-21-2011, 05:34 AM
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RE: Slowing down after landing
ORIGINAL: BT00561
How do you guys slow down your planes after touchdown. Ihave been flying for a while and havent had this issue with any of my other planes. But I have a GPExtra 300 .40 size. She flies great and landings arent bad but she comes in a bit hot sometimes and I use most of the runway to slow down.
So i am wondering what methods everyone uses to slow them down after you land.
How do you guys slow down your planes after touchdown. Ihave been flying for a while and havent had this issue with any of my other planes. But I have a GPExtra 300 .40 size. She flies great and landings arent bad but she comes in a bit hot sometimes and I use most of the runway to slow down.
So i am wondering what methods everyone uses to slow them down after you land.
11-21-2011, 06:08 AM
#9
RE: Slowing down after landing
I took a completely different approach. I used to have a 10 foot high hedgerow that I would have to clear before I could set it down on the runway. I rented a bulldozer and ended up doubling the length of the runway by knocking down the hedgerow, filling in a ditch, and clearing brush for about another 150 yards. If you don't make it down in the length of the runway now, it's because you're still doing over 100 mph at the threshold.
I used to have to waggle the rudder to eat up speed once I got it on the ground. That did work for me.
I used to have to waggle the rudder to eat up speed once I got it on the ground. That did work for me.
11-21-2011, 06:23 AM
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RE: Slowing down after landing
@ Bingo field, I love your solution!!
@ RCVFR - She gets slowed down decent on final, not i have a few other things to try. I do know about the elevator=speed, and throttle=altitude, I know alot of people that dont know about it so its good that you point that out.
@CGRetired - I havent done a downwind landing yet only because I am still getting use to the plane (9 flights) so I have only done long finals, but Im getting more confident now so im sure the downwind final will be soon!
@Oberst - I read through the manual for my radio and just realized that I skipped over some of the more detailed setting up. So this afternoon she will have a flaperons set up!
I really wish we had a grass runway out at the field, we have some very nice asphalt runways so i can complain to much.
Here she is......
@ RCVFR - She gets slowed down decent on final, not i have a few other things to try. I do know about the elevator=speed, and throttle=altitude, I know alot of people that dont know about it so its good that you point that out.
@CGRetired - I havent done a downwind landing yet only because I am still getting use to the plane (9 flights) so I have only done long finals, but Im getting more confident now so im sure the downwind final will be soon!
@Oberst - I read through the manual for my radio and just realized that I skipped over some of the more detailed setting up. So this afternoon she will have a flaperons set up!
I really wish we had a grass runway out at the field, we have some very nice asphalt runways so i can complain to much.
Here she is......
11-21-2011, 08:23 AM
#13
RE: Slowing down after landing
A net like they used on WWII carriers works at slowing them down too. 
Sorry, couldnt help myself, but I do have a question, downwind, is that flying with the wind behind you or heading into it? Sorry, so used to having crosswinds that I couldnt tell. It is a major pain when landing or taking off my Apprentice with a cross wind, when it gets past the big wind block called a barn, it tends to turn into the wind. I rarely have the luxury of east west winds when flying where I fly.
11-21-2011, 08:39 AM
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RE: Slowing down after landing
A breaking system on my wheels. A washer first, a piece of fuel line then a wheel collar. Put pressure on the wheel collar until the washer gives some binding on the wheel. Keep adding pressure until the plane slows down the way you want it to. It doesn't effect the take off or ground handling unless you have a lot of uneven pressure..
11-21-2011, 08:39 AM
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RE: Slowing down after landing
I think you should check your CG landing hot is a sign of being nose heavy as stated above...other than that sounds like you're landing too hot...slow down on approach
11-21-2011, 08:48 AM
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RE: Slowing down after landing
ORIGINAL: BT00561
@Oberst - I read through the manual for my radio and just realized that I skipped over some of the more detailed setting up. So this afternoon she will have a flaperons set up!
@Oberst - I read through the manual for my radio and just realized that I skipped over some of the more detailed setting up. So this afternoon she will have a flaperons set up!
11-21-2011, 09:55 AM
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RE: Slowing down after landing
Ibid on what Freakingfast just said.
The Spoileron idea is a good one as it does not cause tip stall and you would only be using it on the ground.
Flaperons on an Extra is not a good idea as the plane is very prone to tip stalls with flaperons.
As others have stated, check the C.G. of the plane...
Take it up three mistakes high, then fly it level at about 85% throttle. Remove any radio trim you may have added to keep the nose level ( assuming that the control surfaces are otherwise neutral at stick center )... Take your hands off the sticks.
Note how much the nose drops.
The nose should drop a bit slowly by itself.
Flip the plane upside down and perform the same test. The nose should drop at about the same rate.
If the nose drops quickly in either case, the C.G. can be moved back further.
I would NOT recommend moving it so far back as to cause the plane to fly level in both cases ( which is great for 3D, but not good for a novice ).
After doing this you may find that your plane will land more slowly than before helping to reduce the length of time needed to slow down.
The Spoileron idea is a good one as it does not cause tip stall and you would only be using it on the ground.
Flaperons on an Extra is not a good idea as the plane is very prone to tip stalls with flaperons.
As others have stated, check the C.G. of the plane...
Take it up three mistakes high, then fly it level at about 85% throttle. Remove any radio trim you may have added to keep the nose level ( assuming that the control surfaces are otherwise neutral at stick center )... Take your hands off the sticks.
Note how much the nose drops.
The nose should drop a bit slowly by itself.
Flip the plane upside down and perform the same test. The nose should drop at about the same rate.
If the nose drops quickly in either case, the C.G. can be moved back further.
I would NOT recommend moving it so far back as to cause the plane to fly level in both cases ( which is great for 3D, but not good for a novice ).
After doing this you may find that your plane will land more slowly than before helping to reduce the length of time needed to slow down.
11-21-2011, 10:00 AM
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RE: Slowing down after landing
As for the O.P's question, there have been a lot of great answers.
Thou this wont help a tail dragger, I remember about eight years ago, there was a brake contraption for the nose wheel. There was a thread that went to hub and linked to the elevator servo. After touchdown, down elevator would engage the brake. They worked quite well. I wonder what ever happened to that product? Does anyone have a picture of it?
Thou this wont help a tail dragger, I remember about eight years ago, there was a brake contraption for the nose wheel. There was a thread that went to hub and linked to the elevator servo. After touchdown, down elevator would engage the brake. They worked quite well. I wonder what ever happened to that product? Does anyone have a picture of it?
11-21-2011, 10:10 AM
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RE: Slowing down after landing
Crab more on your approach. The little bit of extra drag of your rudder and ailerons working will help....plus it's great practice when you really need to make that crosswind landing! Waggling the rudder after touchdown helps too.
Also see if you have a level runway....at my home field one end is down hill after the flight stations just slightly. And even with a grass strip it doesn't take much.
11-21-2011, 10:25 AM
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RE: Slowing down after landing
I'm glad to hear everyones answers. I have checked the CG and it is spot on, I was hoping to go fly today but the weather is on the crappy side. I will look at moving the CG back just a touch and see how that works and also look into the spoilerons.
11-21-2011, 10:34 AM
#22
RE: Slowing down after landing
I have a Great Planes Gee Bee and a Great Planes revolver. Both land hot as He. Both are balanced right on the money, they are just hot planes to land. I have a 11x6 on my revolver and a 16x6 on my Gee Bee. What I would try is to lower you angle of attack when you come in and land because even with your idle set very low coming in at a high angel of attack will keep speed on your plane up even at idle. Also lower your altitude a little when you start your base leg, this will help keep the speed down when coming in and help with lowering you Angel of Attach on the Final.
Revovler1:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d62Sx8bJ1cQ[/youtube]
Gee Bee
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWSW5RhO5E4[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns7KwODzMxo[/youtube]
Revovler1:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d62Sx8bJ1cQ[/youtube]
Gee Bee
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWSW5RhO5E4[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns7KwODzMxo[/youtube]
11-21-2011, 10:37 AM
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RE: Slowing down after landing
ORIGINAL: freakingfast
Caution Caution Caution ! On some planes, ailerons setup to function in flaperon mode can lead to a sudden and unrecoverable tip stall at landing speeds. This can radically change flight caricature of the plane. One wing can totally stall and the plane will snap inverted and noseplant so fast it'll take a while for your brain to register what just happened. The closer the ailerons are to the wing tips, the more likely it will happen. If you must try it, do it up high, still there are no guarantees for landing.
ORIGINAL: BT00561
@Oberst - I read through the manual for my radio and just realized that I skipped over some of the more detailed setting up. So this afternoon she will have a flaperons set up!
@Oberst - I read through the manual for my radio and just realized that I skipped over some of the more detailed setting up. So this afternoon she will have a flaperons set up!
I already told him to try the flaperons at high altitude. Flaperons will work for his type of aircraft, he just has to make sure he doesn't have to much throw on them, 10deg. will be fine. The only time I've had a problem with wing stall is if I had the flaperon throw rate too much like 15-25deg.
It's funny but all my aircraft is nose heavy to a certain point, and they don't need to come in hot for landings. Only my Dr1 I have to come in under power because of all the extra drag. So it is my experience that because the plane is nose heavy, he has to come in hot? For me not true.
The question here is how much experience does BT00561 have in building and flying skills? It could be he's dealing with a new plane and he isn't quite used to it on pavement. For me I don't like paved runways and I try to avoid them. I've seen good pilots have problems slowing down their aircraft before running out of runway. If BT00561 is new to flying off pavement then it is understandable he's having issues in slowing down.
Pete
11-21-2011, 10:38 AM
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RE: Slowing down after landing
ORIGINAL: BT00561
I'm glad to hear everyones answers. I have checked the CG and it is spot on, I was hoping to go fly today but the weather is on the crappy side. I will look at moving the CG back just a touch and see how that works and also look into the spoilerons.
I'm glad to hear everyones answers. I have checked the CG and it is spot on, I was hoping to go fly today but the weather is on the crappy side. I will look at moving the CG back just a touch and see how that works and also look into the spoilerons.
Manufacturers use VERY conservative C.G. settings.
In flight testing is the best way to determine what you may want to do, but all changes should be done by small increments just to play it safe.
11-21-2011, 10:45 AM
#25
RE: Slowing down after landing
I totally agree with opjose. What the MFG recommends and what actually works can be two different things.
Before you try flapperons (which I do NOT recommend) try moving the CG back 1/8" and try again. If it's not too sensitive on the elevator, move it back another 1/8"
Before you try flapperons (which I do NOT recommend) try moving the CG back 1/8" and try again. If it's not too sensitive on the elevator, move it back another 1/8"